Why I Am A Continuationist

[Guojing]

You can answer that one yourself.

So when you said "The signs and wonders are part of that power and therefore limited directly to the preaching of the Gospel to the unsaved so that they will believe that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins."

You are saying the same as me, because God was still dealing with Israel in the early part of Acts.

The only disagreement I have with your above statement is, even then, they do not have to believe that "Jesus died on the Cross for their sins.", rather they have to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah that was to come (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:36-38).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Bible properly trained will speak for itself ... it cannot be perverted such as here... it's speaking of the Scripture plainly stated and what the Scripture does...

How many times do you have to be told that the Bible does not say that the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was finalised? You are basing your false doctrine on the meaning of just one word in a verse. To say that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer available to the church is to deny what God's Word says about the gifts, that they are there to build up the body of Christ. Also you are denying the actual reality through countless testimonies that the gifts of the Spirit are still active around the body of Christ through people who love Jesus Christ and who put Him first in their lives. You can't say that you alone are right while multitudes of people who have experienced the gifts of the Spirit are wrong, just because your select group of religious people don't see them operating in your church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So when you said "The signs and wonders are part of that power and therefore limited directly to the preaching of the Gospel to the unsaved so that they will believe that Jesus died on the Cross for their sins."

You are saying the same as me, because God was still dealing with Israel in the early part of Acts.

The only disagreement I have with your above statement is, even then, they do not have to believe that "Jesus died on the Cross for their sins.", rather they have to believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah that was to come (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:36-38).

There is no other Gospel than what Paul said, "Christ died on the Cross according to the Scriptures and rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. He said plainly that this is the Gospel of Christ that he preaches, and if anyone comes preaching another Gospel let them be accursed.

So if you are believing another Gospel than Christ and Him crucified, then be it on your own head because you have been clearly told what the true Gospel of Christ actually is.

 

[Guojing]

There is no other Gospel than what Paul said, "Christ died on the Cross according to the Scriptures and rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. He said plainly that this is the Gospel of Christ that he preaches, and if anyone comes preaching another Gospel let them be accursed.

So if you are believing another Gospel than Christ and Him crucified, then be it on your own head because you have been clearly told what the true Gospel of Christ actually is.

Well I provided scripture in John 20:30-31 and Acts 2:36-38, both were written after the cross.

What do those 2 passages literally say?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Apples and oranges. The coming of the perfect is not the perfection of the man of God. Using 2 Timothy 3:15 in this way is a twisting of Scripture to suit your own faulty premise. The majority of Bible commentators before the 19th Century said that the coming of the perfect meant when the bride of Christ was made perfect in glory at the second coming of Christ.

I agree that "that which is perfect" is not likely to be a reference to the completion of the canon. The canon is itself a post resurrection idea. The Church decided the canon, and decided one was needed. There were good reasons for it. but it never had anything to do with ending revelatory gifts.

St. Augustine proves from this text, that the saints in heaven have a more perfect knowledge of what passes here below, than when they sojourned on earth. (De Civit. Dei. lib. xxii. chap. 29.)

 

[The Liturgist]

When I moved to Christchurch NZ at the end of 2019 after 23 years with a suburban Presbyterian church in Auckland I had the choice to join up with a middle of the road Elim Pentecostal church, but I decided against it, and chose a small Union (Presbyerian/Methodist) church five minutes down the road from my home. If we had 20 people to a service we would think that a revival! We get around 12 to 15 people to a Sunday Service, and the mainly elderly folk have no interest in the Charismatic. They are a great group, and I increased the male membership by 50%. They put me to work as the treasurer and property convenor, and I get to take a worship service around every six weeks, So, at my stage of life I fit in well and it suits me fine.

That sounds like a great blessing. And I assume you respect the wishes of the original members to not engage in charismatic practices like speaking in tongues during the main worship service?

 

[The Liturgist]

I call myself a Charismatic, because I subscribe to Pentecostal theology which is basic Westminster Confession with belief in the modern use of the spiritual gifts added. I don't subscribe to the word faith theology of the modern Charismatic signs and wonders movement fathered by Kenneth Hagin, and supported by disciples such as Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer. I term them "Neo-Charismatics" who have moved on in their theology from the Pentecostals of the early 20th Century and the Charismatics of the 1960s. These Neo-Charismatics have a marked difference in theology and worship practice and certainly not the Pentecostalism I signed up for in 1966.

One doesn't have to attend a Charismatic church to be a Charismatic. the feature of being Charismatic is that it is a personal theology and the movement spread around many of the mainstream churches (Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic in the 1960s. The Neo-Charismatics gradually parted company with those churches and formed their own separate groups, such as the Vineyard with John Wimber, Lakeland, with Todd Bentley, Bethel (Bill Johnson), Hillsong (Brian Houston) and other groups known by the ones (previously mentioned) who fronted them.

I am going to change my user name to "Presbyterian Continuist" which would be more accurate, but I have to wait until 1 February to do that.

Enjoy your Bible cover. (friendly smile).

That’s true. There was even a Charismatic movement in Eastern Orthodoxy in the 1970s, which had its own magazine, I think it was called Logos, but it died off, probably due to a combination of anti-Charismatic writings like Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr. Seraphim Rose, and also, to a certain extent, it was superfluous, since recently glorified saints like St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco are known to have engaged in bilocation, prophecy and other things which can only be described as charismatic, but it occurred continually and did not originate at the Azusa Street Revival, and those people who have charisms in the Orthodox church tend to be elders or monastics who use them specifically to help people who seek them out as confessors or spiritual advisors, or otherwise to help the church.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That sounds like a great blessing. And I assume you respect the wishes of the original members to not engage in charismatic practices like speaking in tongues during the main worship service?

I never speak in tongues publicly. In my present church there is no one who has the gift of interpretation. The people have no knowledge of the gifts of the Spirit and because they are well advanced in age, it would be too late to try and teach them. They are not relevant to the type of worship and observance they are used to. But there are other gifts, like hospitality, administration, prophecy through preaching, helps, etc. We did have a guy come into one of our services, spoke some nonsense, and then spoke in tongues. The people sat like deer in headlights, and after the guy had departed, I explained what the guy was trying to achieve, The people know that I have a Pentecostal background and so they appreciated me explaining things to them. Our services are totally traditional: hymns (not Hillsong), Responsive Psalm, Scripture Readings, Reflection (sermon), prayer for others, dedication of the offering, and at the end of the service we all stand in a circle and say the grace. We have no altar call, and therefore no manifestations such as is seen in the Toronto Blessing videos.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree that "that which is perfect" is not likely to be a reference to the completion of the canon. The canon is itself a post resurrection idea. The Church decided the canon, and decided one was needed. There were good reasons for it. but it never had anything to do with ending revelatory gifts.

St. Augustine proves from this text, that the saints in heaven have a more perfect knowledge of what passes here below, than when they sojourned on earth. (De Civit. Dei. lib. xxii. chap. 29.)

The established church believed in healing at least through to the 12th Century AD. When they were constructing the Benedictine monastery at Cassino, some masonry fell on a worker and killed him. They brought the broken body to St Benedict, who knelt down beside it and prayed. The dead man awoke totally healed, and St Benedict sent the man back to continue working.

It is also interesting that after St Augustine declared that the gifts had ceased after the Apostolic Period, evidence to the contrary was so clear in the church where he was bishop, that he contacted the church hierarchy to countermand his previous cessationist view. Sadly, the hierarchy ignored him and retained his previous cessationist view, so according to Catholic church history, Augustine was a cessationist, when in reality he wasn't.

 

[TPop]

The established church believed in healing at least through to the 12th Century AD. When they were constructing the Benedictine monastery at Cassino, some masonry fell on a worker and killed him. They brought the broken body to St Benedict, who knelt down beside it and prayed. The dead man awoke totally healed, and St Benedict sent the man back to continue working.

It is also interesting that after St Augustine declared that the gifts had ceased after the Apostolic Period, evidence to the contrary was so clear in the church where he was bishop, that he contacted the church hierarchy to countermand his previous cessationist view. Sadly, the hierarchy ignored him and retained his previous cessationist view, so according to Catholic church history, Augustine was a cessationist, when in reality he wasn't.

[Act 19:11-12 KJV] 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Do those handkerchiefs and aprons still heal? Scripture does not speak for these things continuing into the centuries to follow.

Signs are for a purpose. Christianity was new. And for a while, people were shown and amazed by the signs and wonders demonstrated to support the new world of Christianity. But we don't live in a time where we see the visible. Now we live by the invisible. What we have in faith to come.

Even the New Wine has different dispensations. The NT started in Christ and now we are in the Church of the Christ.

Peace and Blessings.

 

[Guojing]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV)
[8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
[9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
[10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Just in case you have any doubt what that perfect is that comes
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

point being nothing can make perfect but that which is perfect...

When readers want to make the perfect in 1 Cor 13 to mean the 2nd coming of Christ, its because they already want to believe that those 3 gifts will never cease.

Firstly, there is nothing in the context of 1 Cor 12-14 that had Paul ever thinking about the 2nd coming of Christ.

Secondly, Christ is a person, and not an object, so to describe Christ 2nd coming as "which" instead of "whom", will be strange grammar.

Finally, there is no reason to have faith and hope abiding still, if the "perfect" refers to Christ's second coming.

 

[enoob57]

How many times do you have to be told that the Bible does not say that the gifts ceased when the canon of Scripture was finalised?

Let us make this correct to what I believe: gifts=sign gifts not just gifts as you put it!
What Jesus warned us of not to follow you are encouraging to follow:
Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is certainly obvious that what is being displayed in charismatic circles as sign gifts is not what was in NT time of Jesus and His Apostles... I mean really even the enemies of God could not deny the power going out: lepers being clean before their very eyes, lame walking, those born blind receiving sight, dead people brought back to life, ears cut off put back on etc. Even to the point they had to attribute the evidence of what was being experienced as power of satan! Today this is not occurring no matter how one rants and rails against this fact...

You are basing your false doctrine on the meaning of just one word in a verse. To say that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer available to the church is to deny what God's Word says about the gifts, that they are there to build up the body of Christ.

I am basing it on the obvious reallity of the day... God can do whatever He likes but we have the reality of the above!

Also you are denying the actual reality through countless testimonies that the gifts of the Spirit are still active around the body of Christ through people who love Jesus Christ and who put Him first in their lives.

Testimonies like these?
Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You can't say that you alone are right while multitudes of people who have experienced the gifts of the Spirit are wrong, just because your select group of religious people don't see them operating in your church.

I do not base my Spiritual foundation on experience but on the Inspired Word of God... that which your circles have greatly diminished by giving greater value to fleshy, sensual means of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch... all of which passes away and will no longer be remembered... we have answered prayer but we do not direct souls to look for signs and wonder as verifications of God:
Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

knowing God has warned us of this why would you lead people to it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Let us make this correct to what I believe: gifts=sign gifts not just gifts as you put it!
What Jesus warned us of not to follow you are encouraging to follow:
Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is certainly obvious that what is being displayed in charismatic circles as sign gifts is not what was in NT time of Jesus and His Apostles... I mean really even the enemies of God could not deny the power going out: lepers being clean before their very eyes, lame walking, those born blind receiving sight, dead people brought back to life, ears cut off put back on etc. Even to the point they had to attribute the evidence of what was being experienced as power of satan! Today this is not occurring no matter how one rants and rails against this fact...

I am basing it on the obvious reallity of the day... God can do whatever He likes but we have the reality of the above!

Testimonies like these?
Matthew 7:22 (KJV)
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


I do not base my Spiritual foundation on experience but on the Inspired Word of God... that which your circles have greatly diminished by giving greater value to fleshy, sensual means of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch... all of which passes away and will no longer be remembered... we have answered prayer but we do not direct souls to look for signs and wonder as verifications of God:
Matthew 24:24 (KJV)
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

knowing God has warned us of this why would you lead people to it?

There is no doubt that the sign gifts had largely ceased by the 4th Century. Church history tells us that. St Augustine reported that the sign gifts were still present in his church while he was bishop. But they didn't cease because of any decree from God, otherwise He would have clearly said so in His word, and there is no evidence of that in Scripture.

I fully agree that there are many false prophets in the world today. All you have to see the evidence of the word faith movement when you watch Youtube videos, and read about the bad practices of the NAR prophets in the way they have invaded good churches.

Also, I have doubts that the gifts have been restored in the same form seen in the Book of Acts. But where there are counterfeits, there is the real thing; but the operation of the real gifts of the Spirit are rarely seen on Youtube because they happen among small groups rather than the large conferences and crusades we see on Youtube. Also, the purpose of the gifts is to equip the body of Christ to preach the Gospel of Christ and to save souls, not for the self indulgent of professing Christians with tickling ears and desire to see the spectacular.

So I am on the same page as you concerning how the gifts are presented in the modern neo-Charismatic word faith movement and the NAR. The sad fact is that most people think that these are true Charismatics while I have doubts about whether they have the Spirit of Christ. I think that if Paul was here today he would be warning people about "other" Gospels as he did in the Book of Galatians.

 

[Guojing]

Also, the purpose of the gifts is to equip the body of Christ to preach the Gospel of Christ and to save souls, not for the self indulgent of professing Christians with tickling ears and desire to see the spectacular.

But scripture only recorded that Jews require a sign.

So if you agree with him that gifts= sign gifts, your statement here won't make sense.

God is no longer dealing with the nation of Israel (Romans 11:11, Romans 11:25).

There is no need for signs to preach any gospel today. That is why Paul prophesied 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Until God starts the program again with Israel, which will be during Jacob's trouble, signs will not return till then (Matthew 24:24).

 

[The Liturgist]

I never speak in tongues publicly. In my present church there is no one who has the gift of interpretation. The people have no knowledge of the gifts of the Spirit and because they are well advanced in age, it would be too late to try and teach them. They are not relevant to the type of worship and observance they are used to. But there are other gifts, like hospitality, administration, prophecy through preaching, helps, etc. We did have a guy come into one of our services, spoke some nonsense, and then spoke in tongues. The people sat like deer in headlights, and after the guy had departed, I explained what the guy was trying to achieve, The people know that I have a Pentecostal background and so they appreciated me explaining things to them. Our services are totally traditional: hymns (not Hillsong), Responsive Psalm, Scripture Readings, Reflection (sermon), prayer for others, dedication of the offering, and at the end of the service we all stand in a circle and say the grace. We have no altar call, and therefore no manifestations such as is seen in the Toronto Blessing videos.

Sounds like a nice church service that follows the traditional pattern of Christian worship which one can trace back to manuscripts such as the fourth century Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis and the second century Strasbourg Papyrus.

Altar calls were unheard of until the 19th century, and I find CCM like Hillsong to be offensive since it motivates the passions and is doctrinally often vacuous.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But scripture only recorded that Jews require a sign.

So if you agree with him that gifts= sign gifts, your statement here won't make sense.

God is no longer dealing with the nation of Israel (Romans 11:11, Romans 11:25).

There is no need for signs to preach any gospel today. That is why Paul prophesied 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Until God starts the program again with Israel, which will be during Jacob's trouble, signs will not return till then (Matthew 24:24).

1 Corinthians 1:6-10: "Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is God's inspired words through Paul, that the Corinthian believers, and us, keep on using the gifts of the Spirit until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The truth of the Bible overrules all the theories of men.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sounds like a nice church service that follows the traditional pattern of Christian worship which one can trace back to manuscripts such as the fourth century Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis and the second century Strasbourg Papyrus.

Altar calls were unheard of until the 19th century, and I find CCM like Hillsong to be offensive since it motivates the passions and is doctrinally often vacuous.

It was Charles Finney who first set up the "anxious bench" where he invited those who were anxious about their salvation to come forward to receive prayer. I have just heard part of a sermon by Charles Spurgeon (through my voice speak software), where he said that when a person hears the Gospel preached and the Holy Spirit speaks through it as it points the person to have confidence in Christ for their salvation, the Word of God converts the soul (Scripture: "The law of the lord is perfect, converting the soul), and the sinner becomes a new creature in Christ. Therefore, there is no need for an altar call or getting the person to say the sinners prayer, because as the word of God is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, those who are enlightened with the truth of the Gospel and say with their hearts to God, "I believe the Gospel and am putting my trust in Christ to save me", are instantly converted to Christ and the law of God is written on their hearts. Spurgeon says that once the law of God is written on a person's heart, they desire to go on for God, and backsliding is out of the question.

 

[ARBITER01]

1 Corinthians 1:6-10: "Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is God's inspired words through Paul, that the Corinthian believers, and us, keep on using the gifts of the Spirit until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The truth of the Bible overrules all the theories of men.

That section of scripture is absolutely true.

That word "gift" is Charisma, the same Greek word used later on in chapter 12 about the Spiritual gifts. The idea that the compilation of NT writings of our early Christians thereby eliminates the church age and it's gifts is a bunch of made up junk.

 

[Guojing]

1 Corinthians 1:6-10: "Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is God's inspired words through Paul, that the Corinthian believers, and us, keep on using the gifts of the Spirit until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The truth of the Bible overrules all the theories of men.

So anytime you read "gift" in scripture, you assume its referring to signs?

Is the reasoning the same as those who uses Romans 11:29 to reason that signs continue today?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So anytime you read "gift" in scripture, you assume its referring to signs?

The "gift" referred to in the verse points to the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12.

Also, we have Ephesians 4:7-13: "
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”[b] 9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

The reference to gifts in the Ephesians passage points directly to verse 11 where Christ gave the gifts of apostleship, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers to the body of Christ. We will all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God when Jesus calls the church up to Him in the Rapture, signally the end of the church age. Until then, we have these gifts plus all the nine gifts of the Spirit listed in 1 Corinthians 12.

These two references are more direct and clear than the obscure reference about the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10.