Why I Am A Continuationist

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am a continuationist according to the gifts of the Holy Spirit because there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God. If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

The two basic theories are (1) that the gifts were only designed for Apostolic times and for the establishment of the Church, and (2) that once the canon of Scripture was established, the spiritual gifts were no longer required. There is nothing stated in the New Testament to support these two theories, therefore they consist of eisegesis (adding to Scripture) and not exegesis of existing Scripture. We can base something on exegesis of Scripture if there is no Scripture to base it on. Proverbs 30:6 says not to add to the words of Scripture lest God comes and rebukes the person and shows that he is a liar. This means that the two popular theories concerning the cessation of the gifts are based on lies and not the truth.

The truth is that what caused the decline and cessation of the gifts was that the church changed into something totally difference from the church that was born out of the Day of Pentecost. The decline of a true commitment to Christ, and standards of holiness, and the more formalised structure of the church in the face of the many heresies that arose during the First Century were the main factors. Instead of the rank and file members having different spiritual functions within the worship of the services, the bishops took over and soon after installed trained clergy to conduct the services. This caused a one man band performance at the front, while ordinary members became passive pew sitters.

So what was the point of individual church members seeking God for their spiritual gifting if they were blocked from being able to use the gifts in the formalised, ritualist church? In the face of this, ordinary church members stopped seeking the gifts and so the gifts declined and by the 4th Century, they were absent from the church services. Also, because the standards of holiness declined, tongues reduced in holiness and degenerated in purposeless babble which put people right off seeking that gift. Because the bishop took over the prophetic function, the "prophecies" regenerated into homilies based on the bishop's own wisdom and not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is the way the Church itself caused the decline and cessation of the spiritual gifts and not God Himself.

When the Pentecostal revival took place, many believed the the spiritual gifts were being restored to the Church. But because there is no actual operating manual to ensure that the gifts were and are to be manifested according to the Holy Spirit, there was and is much variation among different groups about how these gifts were to be manifested. For example, the gift of tongues brought confusion because different groups had different purposes for its use, and often there was much public speaking without interpretation, contrary to how Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14. Others thought they could go to foreign countries hoping to have the people there understand them when they would preach the Gospel in tongues. Most, if not all failed, which brought the gift of tongues into disrepute for many people. Others stood up in church giving "thus says the Lord" prophetic messages, and much harm was caused through people not searching the Scriptures to check whether these prophecies actually came from God or not.

Then rose the "healing evangelist" who did a lot of speechmaking, but with very few actual results. Most of these have no been revealed as frauds. This is understandable given that there were no "healing evangelists" or healing conferences in the New Testament.

So, we come down to today. We have a new Charismatic movement that features hyped up worship feature kundalini manifestations, false teaching that has nothing to do with the Bible, and prophecy that consists in double talk which says nothing.

So in the face of all this confusion and falsehood, why am I a continuationist?

It is because I believe the true gifts of the Spirit are still in the church, albeit in most cases they lie dormant. Although I no longer give "words" of prophecy, which also is missing from the New Testament, I see Scriptural prophecy is preaching the Word, giving Biblical teaching, exhorting other believers to be faithful to Christ, and engaging in counselling to those who require it. It is prophetic when the Holy Spirit works through it to achieve results that we cannot in our own strength. I don't try to give words of knowledge, because I don't know how, and the Holy Spirit hasn't instructed me on it. I don't know how the working of miracles is done, because in my 56 years of Christian faith I have never seen it in action. I also don't know how to have a gift of healing, because the Holy Spirit hasn't given it to me, and all those who say they have gifts of healing, can't seem to be able to healing anyone.

My view is that the church has not yet gained the level of commitment to Christ and the standard of holiness that was a feature of the very early Church We do not yet have the calibre of ministry commensurate of the calibre of the Apostles. Most areas of the modern church are still steeped in formalism and ritual, and have strictly programmed orders of service that make no room for ordinary church members to use a gift of the Spirit even if they could. This is why we don't see a widespread use of the gifts, because most don't see the point of seeking a gift if they can't use it in their formalised, one man band church.

Even in those Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that advise the "full gospel" with the inclusion of the gifts, we hear the motivational talk and speech making, but very little else. There is a church that has a School of Supernatural Ministry, which teaches all the principles, but to date, none of the graduating students have been able to progress into actual supernatural ministry. There is a lot of speech making and teaching about what can happen if we fulfil certain conditions, but nothing happens - as yet anyway.

So, why am I a continuationist? Because God's Word says that the gifts of the Spirit were designed to continue until the end of the church age. Although I do not yet see it, and I may never see it seeing that I am now 76 years of age and don't have a lot of years left, I believe God's Word and feel that I am blessed that although I do not see, I continue to believe in God's faithfulness to stand by His word for those who meet His criterial for true Christian ministry.

 

[bling]

You made some wonderful observations and miracles are still happening. But:

Look up “to telious” for that is what is in 1 Cor. 13:10. The “to” in Greek is “the” in English, but it is masculine, neuter and plural, so we are looking for the perfect “neuter it”. Will Paul doesn’t and we shouldn’t use the word in communicating to others unless they know what we are talking about. It really was no big problem for the Greek speaking Corinthians to know exactly what Paul was referring to since “the [it]” is standing for has to be neuter. Good grammar would mean the reader would immediately understand what the “it” was referring to, since the “it” would be neuter and the main previous neuter subject (not something out of context and of a different gender). The “it” from the context is something that is “in part” separated/ not together/ not one/ not whole/ not complete at the moment of the letter. There are not many neuter words around and Bible, Jesus, heaven, book, second coming and most other words in Greek are not neuter.

Did Paul make a grammatical mistake? Would the Spirit have led him to miss communicate? In Greek poetry you can use the wrong gender and if you’re trying to get some point across you might change the gender, but was that the case here? Can you find other instances of Paul make grammatical errors?

This is not the only time Paul discusses this topic of something being apart and needing to come together, you might start with Eph. for a parallel discussion.

What Paul has been talking about in gifts and the body in Chp. 12 and takes a little tangent to talk about Love, but than in Chp.13: 8 Paul returns to his discussion of gifts and the body. In Paul’s discussion of the body he talks a lot about the different parts and how we all need to be one. But are there actually one at that time or is this something Paul is wanting and encouraging them to be?

Paul says: 1 Cor. 12: 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Paul uses that same idea in Eph. 4: 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

In Eph. Paul tells them they need to be united in one body and he also tells them how they are in parts now (have not reached the unity). Eph. 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.



“To teleion” in context is the opposite of being apart (meaning put together). The parts just previously being discussed by Paul were parts of the “body”, the body had not yet come together even at the time of the Ephesians letter, because there were still Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. This was a huge problem that Paul worked on heavily and would explain the persecution, famine and final destruction in Judas. “Body” is neuter and would be the word the Corinthian reader would easily choose to be the neuter word “to teleion” is referring to.

Paul is saying “when the body is made united as one” or “the parts of the body are joined”. Again it would be poor grammar in Greek or English to say “it” (or the equivalent of “it”) and be referring to a word you used a sentence later, but maybe you can give me examples?

I would say it was only sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem that Jewish Christians quite referring to themselves as Jewish Christians and just called themselves Christians.

 

[swordsman1]

I am a continuationist according to the gifts of the Holy Spirit because there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God. If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

The two basic theories are (1) that the gifts were only designed for Apostolic times and for the establishment of the Church, and (2) that once the canon of Scripture was established, the spiritual gifts were no longer required. There is nothing stated in the New Testament to support these two theories, therefore they consist of eisegesis (adding to Scripture) and not exegesis of existing Scripture. We can base something on exegesis of Scripture if there is no Scripture to base it on. Proverbs 30:6 says not to add to the words of Scripture lest God comes and rebukes the person and shows that he is a liar. This means that the two popular theories concerning the cessation of the gifts are based on lies and not the truth.

The truth is that what caused the decline and cessation of the gifts was that the church changed into something totally difference from the church that was born out of the Day of Pentecost. The decline of a true commitment to Christ, and standards of holiness, and the more formalised structure of the church in the face of the many heresies that arose during the First Century were the main factors. Instead of the rank and file members having different spiritual functions within the worship of the services, the bishops took over and soon after installed trained clergy to conduct the services. This caused a one man band performance at the front, while ordinary members became passive pew sitters.

So what was the point of individual church members seeking God for their spiritual gifting if they were blocked from being able to use the gifts in the formalised, ritualist church? In the face of this, ordinary church members stopped seeking the gifts and so the gifts declined and by the 4th Century, they were absent from the church services. Also, because the standards of holiness declined, tongues reduced in holiness and degenerated in purposeless babble which put people right off seeking that gift. Because the bishop took over the prophetic function, the "prophecies" regenerated into homilies based on the bishop's own wisdom and not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is the way the Church itself caused the decline and cessation of the spiritual gifts and not God Himself.

When the Pentecostal revival took place, many believed the the spiritual gifts were being restored to the Church. But because there is no actual operating manual to ensure that the gifts were and are to be manifested according to the Holy Spirit, there was and is much variation among different groups about how these gifts were to be manifested. For example, the gift of tongues brought confusion because different groups had different purposes for its use, and often there was much public speaking without interpretation, contrary to how Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14. Others thought they could go to foreign countries hoping to have the people there understand them when they would preach the Gospel in tongues. Most, if not all failed, which brought the gift of tongues into disrepute for many people. Others stood up in church giving "thus says the Lord" prophetic messages, and much harm was caused through people not searching the Scriptures to check whether these prophecies actually came from God or not.

Then rose the "healing evangelist" who did a lot of speechmaking, but with very few actual results. Most of these have no been revealed as frauds. This is understandable given that there were no "healing evangelists" or healing conferences in the New Testament.

So, we come down to today. We have a new Charismatic movement that features hyped up worship feature kundalini manifestations, false teaching that has nothing to do with the Bible, and prophecy that consists in double talk which says nothing.

So in the face of all this confusion and falsehood, why am I a continuationist?

It is because I believe the true gifts of the Spirit are still in the church, albeit in most cases they lie dormant. Although I no longer give "words" of prophecy, which also is missing from the New Testament, I see Scriptural prophecy is preaching the Word, giving Biblical teaching, exhorting other believers to be faithful to Christ, and engaging in counselling to those who require it. It is prophetic when the Holy Spirit works through it to achieve results that we cannot in our own strength. I don't try to give words of knowledge, because I don't know how, and the Holy Spirit hasn't instructed me on it. I don't know how the working of miracles is done, because in my 56 years of Christian faith I have never seen it in action. I also don't know how to have a gift of healing, because the Holy Spirit hasn't given it to me, and all those who say they have gifts of healing, can't seem to be able to healing anyone.

My view is that the church has not yet gained the level of commitment to Christ and the standard of holiness that was a feature of the very early Church We do not yet have the calibre of ministry commensurate of the calibre of the Apostles. Most areas of the modern church are still steeped in formalism and ritual, and have strictly programmed orders of service that make no room for ordinary church members to use a gift of the Spirit even if they could. This is why we don't see a widespread use of the gifts, because most don't see the point of seeking a gift if they can't use it in their formalised, one man band church.

Even in those Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that advise the "full gospel" with the inclusion of the gifts, we hear the motivational talk and speech making, but very little else. There is a church that has a School of Supernatural Ministry, which teaches all the principles, but to date, none of the graduating students have been able to progress into actual supernatural ministry. There is a lot of speech making and teaching about what can happen if we fulfil certain conditions, but nothing happens - as yet anyway.

So, why am I a continuationist? Because God's Word says that the gifts of the Spirit were designed to continue until the end of the church age. Although I do not yet see it, and I may never see it seeing that I am now 76 years of age and don't have a lot of years left, I believe God's Word and feel that I am blessed that although I do not see, I continue to believe in God's faithfulness to stand by His word for those who meet His criterial for true Christian ministry.

It is true to say there is little in scripture that says the charismatic gifts will cease. But equally there is little to say that the gifts will definitely continue. Cessationists argue from verses such as 1 Cor 13:9-11 and Eph 2:20. Continuists argue from 1 Cor 13:9-11 also (having a different interpretation) and Eph 4:11-14. All these verses have been thoroughly discussed here before.

I would say that after careful exegetical study of those verses the cessationist view is correct. However I also would say you cannot be dogmatic either way. There is simply insufficient evidence from scripture for either viewpoint to form a biblical doctrine. And it is not wise to form a doctrine from just 1 or 2 highly disputed passages.

What we can do however is look at history. Did the charismatic gifts cease or not? The answer is yes they did. The late church fathers confirmed that tongues died out by the 4th century AD. Claims of prophecy only appeared in rogue heretical groups such as the Montanists. I do not agree that preaching = prophecy as that is not how prophecy is described in scripture. Nor do I hold any credence to the claims of miracles attrubuted to famous Catholics by their fans eager to secure the sainthood of their favourite churchmen. And even most charismatics today agree that the gift of apostleship has ceased - as defined in scripture as a miracle-working, eye-witness of Christ in the flesh, divinely appointed, authoritative spokesman for Christ.

We can speculate as to why the gifts ceased. I don't think a lack of holiness in the church is one of them. The Corinthians did not lack in any gift, yet they were one of the most sinful churches of the 1st century. A more plausible explanation is the purpose of the supernatural gifts was fulfilled. The Christian church and it's leaders were authenticated as being a genuine move of God by the miracles they performed and those authenticating proofs are now recorded for us all in infallible scripture.

The other big question is did the charismatic gifts reappear in the 20th century when the Pentecostal and later Charismatic movements appeared on the scene? The answer to that I think is No. What they claim to be gifts of the Spirit do not match the biblical description of those gifts. Tongues in scripture was never an unintelligible "heavenly language", it was always the miraculous ability to speak a known foreign language you had never learned (including the tongues of 1 Corinthians) and up until the 20th century the Church has always regarded it as such. Prophecy in scripture was never an impression or a feeling, it was always precise words spoken by God to the prophet who passed the message on verbatim to its intended recipient usually in the form of 'Thus says the Lord, "<message>". Healing in scripture was not the occasional success at alleviating headaches, back pain and other psychosomatic illnesses that cannot be proved, but rather demonstrable instantaneous and 100% successful healing of permanent disabilities such as paralysis or blindness by nothing more than a command or a touch. Sure we can pray for healing of our illnesses and I would be the first to do so, but if you have to pray for God to provide healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You made some wonderful observations and miracles are still happening. But:

Look up “to telious” for that is what is in 1 Cor. 13:10. The “to” in Greek is “the” in English, but it is masculine, neuter and plural, so we are looking for the perfect “neuter it”. Will Paul doesn’t and we shouldn’t use the word in communicating to others unless they know what we are talking about. It really was no big problem for the Greek speaking Corinthians to know exactly what Paul was referring to since “the [it]” is standing for has to be neuter. Good grammar would mean the reader would immediately understand what the “it” was referring to, since the “it” would be neuter and the main previous neuter subject (not something out of context and of a different gender). The “it” from the context is something that is “in part” separated/ not together/ not one/ not whole/ not complete at the moment of the letter. There are not many neuter words around and Bible, Jesus, heaven, book, second coming and most other words in Greek are not neuter.

Did Paul make a grammatical mistake? Would the Spirit have led him to miss communicate? In Greek poetry you can use the wrong gender and if you’re trying to get some point across you might change the gender, but was that the case here? Can you find other instances of Paul make grammatical errors?

This is not the only time Paul discusses this topic of something being apart and needing to come together, you might start with Eph. for a parallel discussion.

What Paul has been talking about in gifts and the body in Chp. 12 and takes a little tangent to talk about Love, but than in Chp.13: 8 Paul returns to his discussion of gifts and the body. In Paul’s discussion of the body he talks a lot about the different parts and how we all need to be one. But are there actually one at that time or is this something Paul is wanting and encouraging them to be?

Paul says: 1 Cor. 12: 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Paul uses that same idea in Eph. 4: 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

In Eph. Paul tells them they need to be united in one body and he also tells them how they are in parts now (have not reached the unity). Eph. 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.



“To teleion” in context is the opposite of being apart (meaning put together). The parts just previously being discussed by Paul were parts of the “body”, the body had not yet come together even at the time of the Ephesians letter, because there were still Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. This was a huge problem that Paul worked on heavily and would explain the persecution, famine and final destruction in Judas. “Body” is neuter and would be the word the Corinthian reader would easily choose to be the neuter word “to teleion” is referring to.

Paul is saying “when the body is made united as one” or “the parts of the body are joined”. Again it would be poor grammar in Greek or English to say “it” (or the equivalent of “it”) and be referring to a word you used a sentence later, but maybe you can give me examples?

I would say it was only sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem that Jewish Christians quite referring to themselves as Jewish Christians and just called themselves Christians.

What on earth are you talking about? Have you been listening to too many Chuck Pierce prophecies?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It is true to say there is little in scripture that says the charismatic gifts will cease. But equally there is little to say that the gifts will definitely continue. Cessationists argue from verses such as 1 Cor 13:9-11 and Eph 2:20. Continuists argue from 1 Cor 13:9-11 also (having a different interpretation) and Eph 4:11-14. All these verses have been thoroughly discussed here before.

I would say that after careful exegetical study of those verses the cessationist view is correct. However I also would say you cannot be dogmatic either way. There is simply insufficient evidence from scripture for either viewpoint to form a biblical doctrine. And it is not wise to form a doctrine from just 1 or 2 highly disputed passages.

What we can do however is look at history. Did the charismatic gifts cease or not? The answer is yes they did. The late church fathers confirmed that tongues died out by the 4th century AD. Claims of prophecy only appeared in rogue heretical groups such as the Montanists. I do not agree that preaching = prophecy as that is not how prophecy is described in scripture. Nor do I hold any credence to the claims of miracles attrubuted to famous Catholics by their fans eager to secure the sainthood of their favourite churchmen. And even most charismatics today agree that the gift of apostleship has ceased - as defined in scripture as a miracle-working, eye-witness of Christ in the flesh, divinely appointed, authoritative spokesman for Christ.

We can speculate as to why the gifts ceased. I don't think a lack of holiness in the church is one of them. The Corinthians did not lack in any gift, yet they were one of the most sinful churches of the 1st century. A more plausible explanation is the purpose of the supernatural gifts was fulfilled. The Christian church and it's leaders were authenticated as being a genuine move of God by the miracles they performed and those authenticating proofs are now recorded for us all in infallible scripture.

The other big question is did the charismatic gifts reappear in the 20th century when the Pentecostal and later Charismatic movements appeared on the scene? The answer to that I think is No. What they claim to be gifts of the Spirit do not match the biblical description of those gifts. Tongues in scripture was never an unintelligible "heavenly language", it was always the miraculous ability to speak a known foreign language you had never learned (including the tongues of 1 Corinthians) and up until the 20th century the Church has always regarded it as such. Prophecy in scripture was never an impression or a feeling, it was always precise words spoken by God to the prophet who passed the message on verbatim to its intended recipient usually in the form of 'Thus says the Lord, "<message>". Healing in scripture was not the occasional success at alleviating headaches, back pain and other psychosomatic illnesses that cannot be proved, but rather demonstrable instantaneous and 100% successful healing of permanent disabilities such as paralysis or blindness by nothing more than a command or a touch. Sure we can pray for healing of our illnesses and I would be the first to do so, but if you have to pray for God to provide healing it proves you do not have the gift of healing.

The things that we agree on are that the spiritual gifts declined and had mainly ceased by the 4th Century, and that there are doubts that the "restoration" of the gifts at the start of the 20th Century brought back the same gifts that existed in the 1st Century church. Certainly, in the modern Charismatic movement dominated by the prosperity preachers and NAR prophets, any idea of genuine gifts of the Spirit has been swamped by the false teaching and prophets that have hijacked the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

So, (and it has taken over 50 years for me to say this) just because someone says they have such and such a gift, including tongues and prophecy, it doesn't mean that they have the same gift that believers had in the Early Church. In fact, most of what I hear that passes for tongues on Youtube can't be true because the public speaking goes right against what Paul instructed the Corinthians.

Also, seeing the number of prophecies said by the foremost Charismatic prophets, all I see are word salads and double talk. When we read the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. we see definite statements of what is going to happen in the future, and we see in subsequent Scripture that those prophecies actually came to pass. What we see in modern prophecies are just prophecy bingo words (Ie Chris Rosebrough's Prophecy Bingo videos) saying things about "breakthrough", "new season", "increase", etc, etc, but nothing comes of it.

So I believe the gifts of the Spirit exist today, but are largely dormant in the Church, awaiting for the Church to return to the state it was just after the Day of Pentecost when there were true signs and wonders, and true Apostles of Christ performing them. What we have today are people trying to manifest the gifts through guesswork and being mostly unsuccessful.

So, in my present involvement in my Union church, which has around 10-15 elderly people attending on a Sunday morning, I keep away from mentioning the gifts because those people wouldn't know what I would be talking about, much less have the desire to manifest any of them. I teach and preach what is important - the Gospel of Christ, involving the finished work of Christ on the Cross. When I am taking a service for people who have one foot in the grave, the most important thing is to get them into heaven, and the only way to do that is to build up their faith in Christ, who is the only One who can get and keep them saved.

 

[Guojing]

So I believe the gifts of the Spirit exist today, but are largely dormant in the Church, awaiting for the Church to return to the state it was just after the Day of Pentecost when there were true signs and wonders, and true Apostles of Christ performing them. What we have today are people trying to manifest the gifts through guesswork and being mostly unsuccessful.

That state will happen during the time of Jacob's trouble. (Matthew 24:24).

If you believe that, then you are more of a cessationist.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That state will happen during the time of Jacob's trouble. (Matthew 24:24).

If you believe that, then you are more of a cessationist.

If I believe that the gifts declined and ceased when the church became pagan during the reign of Constantine, then I am a cessationist from that perspective. But I am not a cessationist in terms of God giving some kind of decree from heaven that the gifts must cease after the Apostolic period when the church became established. Seeing that the church became pagan instead of being established in Christ, then making the establishment of the church the reason for the cessation of the gifts is invalid. The reason why the gifts have not come into the widespread Church is that there are still too many paganist elements still existing in it. The Church is not pure enough for the gifts to effectively function. Seeing that the gifts are manifested by the Holy Spirit, none of us can make them happen, and just speechmaking saying that they are happening is nothing more that that - speechmaking.

 

[Guojing]

If I believe that the gifts declined and ceased when the church became pagan during the reign of Constantine, then I am a cessationist from that perspective. But I am not a cessationist in terms of God giving some kind of decree from heaven that the gifts must cease after the Apostolic period when the church became established. Seeing that the church became pagan instead of being established in Christ, then making the establishment of the church the reason for the cessation of the gifts is invalid. The reason why the gifts have not come into the widespread Church is that there are still too many paganist elements still existing in it. The Church is not pure enough for the gifts to effectively function. Seeing that the gifts are manifested by the Holy Spirit, none of us can make them happen, and just speechmaking saying that they are happening is nothing more that that - speechmaking.

Is there a difference between signs and gifts, in your above reasoning?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is there a difference between signs and gifts, in your above reasoning?

What do you think?

 

[Guojing]

What do you think?

Tongues are definitely for a sign.

Healing as well (Luke 7:21-23, Matthew 10:7-8)

 

[ARBITER01]

Seeing that the gifts are manifested by the Holy Spirit, none of us can make them happen,...

That's incorrect Oscarr.

The 3 inspirational gifts can be stepped out and operated by the believer on personal faith,.... tongues, interpretation, and prophesying.

So,... when people comb youtube videos and see people operating their prayer tongue from the pulpit, without an interpretation following, it automatically proves their point and justifies their stance, so in turn, they make their youtube videos off that.

The gift wasn't wrong, it was misused in front of people by an immature believer. That person lacked self control with their gifts.

Just like the Corinthians were immature with their operation of the gifts, people nowadays do the same thing.

Spiritual maturity doesn't happen overnight.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am a continuationist according to the gifts of the Holy Spirit because there is nothing in the New Testament that the decline and cease of the spiritual gifts were the result of some decree of God. If God meant for the gifts to be temporary, He would have clearly said so.

The two basic theories are (1) that the gifts were only designed for Apostolic times and for the establishment of the Church, and (2) that once the canon of Scripture was established, the spiritual gifts were no longer required. There is nothing stated in the New Testament to support these two theories, therefore they consist of eisegesis (adding to Scripture) and not exegesis of existing Scripture. We can base something on exegesis of Scripture if there is no Scripture to base it on. Proverbs 30:6 says not to add to the words of Scripture lest God comes and rebukes the person and shows that he is a liar. This means that the two popular theories concerning the cessation of the gifts are based on lies and not the truth.

The truth is that what caused the decline and cessation of the gifts was that the church changed into something totally difference from the church that was born out of the Day of Pentecost. The decline of a true commitment to Christ, and standards of holiness, and the more formalised structure of the church in the face of the many heresies that arose during the First Century were the main factors. Instead of the rank and file members having different spiritual functions within the worship of the services, the bishops took over and soon after installed trained clergy to conduct the services. This caused a one man band performance at the front, while ordinary members became passive pew sitters.

So what was the point of individual church members seeking God for their spiritual gifting if they were blocked from being able to use the gifts in the formalised, ritualist church? In the face of this, ordinary church members stopped seeking the gifts and so the gifts declined and by the 4th Century, they were absent from the church services. Also, because the standards of holiness declined, tongues reduced in holiness and degenerated in purposeless babble which put people right off seeking that gift. Because the bishop took over the prophetic function, the "prophecies" regenerated into homilies based on the bishop's own wisdom and not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is the way the Church itself caused the decline and cessation of the spiritual gifts and not God Himself.

When the Pentecostal revival took place, many believed the the spiritual gifts were being restored to the Church. But because there is no actual operating manual to ensure that the gifts were and are to be manifested according to the Holy Spirit, there was and is much variation among different groups about how these gifts were to be manifested. For example, the gift of tongues brought confusion because different groups had different purposes for its use, and often there was much public speaking without interpretation, contrary to how Paul taught it in 1 Corinthians 14. Others thought they could go to foreign countries hoping to have the people there understand them when they would preach the Gospel in tongues. Most, if not all failed, which brought the gift of tongues into disrepute for many people. Others stood up in church giving "thus says the Lord" prophetic messages, and much harm was caused through people not searching the Scriptures to check whether these prophecies actually came from God or not.

Then rose the "healing evangelist" who did a lot of speechmaking, but with very few actual results. Most of these have no been revealed as frauds. This is understandable given that there were no "healing evangelists" or healing conferences in the New Testament.

So, we come down to today. We have a new Charismatic movement that features hyped up worship feature kundalini manifestations, false teaching that has nothing to do with the Bible, and prophecy that consists in double talk which says nothing.

So in the face of all this confusion and falsehood, why am I a continuationist?

It is because I believe the true gifts of the Spirit are still in the church, albeit in most cases they lie dormant. Although I no longer give "words" of prophecy, which also is missing from the New Testament, I see Scriptural prophecy is preaching the Word, giving Biblical teaching, exhorting other believers to be faithful to Christ, and engaging in counselling to those who require it. It is prophetic when the Holy Spirit works through it to achieve results that we cannot in our own strength. I don't try to give words of knowledge, because I don't know how, and the Holy Spirit hasn't instructed me on it. I don't know how the working of miracles is done, because in my 56 years of Christian faith I have never seen it in action. I also don't know how to have a gift of healing, because the Holy Spirit hasn't given it to me, and all those who say they have gifts of healing, can't seem to be able to healing anyone.

My view is that the church has not yet gained the level of commitment to Christ and the standard of holiness that was a feature of the very early Church We do not yet have the calibre of ministry commensurate of the calibre of the Apostles. Most areas of the modern church are still steeped in formalism and ritual, and have strictly programmed orders of service that make no room for ordinary church members to use a gift of the Spirit even if they could. This is why we don't see a widespread use of the gifts, because most don't see the point of seeking a gift if they can't use it in their formalised, one man band church.

Even in those Pentecostal and Charismatic churches that advise the "full gospel" with the inclusion of the gifts, we hear the motivational talk and speech making, but very little else. There is a church that has a School of Supernatural Ministry, which teaches all the principles, but to date, none of the graduating students have been able to progress into actual supernatural ministry. There is a lot of speech making and teaching about what can happen if we fulfil certain conditions, but nothing happens - as yet anyway.

So, why am I a continuationist? Because God's Word says that the gifts of the Spirit were designed to continue until the end of the church age. Although I do not yet see it, and I may never see it seeing that I am now 76 years of age and don't have a lot of years left, I believe God's Word and feel that I am blessed that although I do not see, I continue to believe in God's faithfulness to stand by His word for those who meet His criterial for true Christian ministry.

It might surprise you to note that I also am a continuationist, although I disagree with Charismatics and Pentecostals on what the charisms look like and who has them. What i have seen that causes me to believe that these charisms still exist has involved Eaatern and Oriental Orthodox monks, very senior monastics who were in both cases the hegumen (Abbott) of their respective monasteries, and one of whom was also known as a hesychast and as a spiritual son of Elder Joseph the Hesychast on Mount Athos. And what i have seen has also been extremely subtle, and it has occurred outside of the liturgical services, which are always conducted exactly in according to the rubrics set forth in the Typikon and elsewhere.

 

[The Liturgist]

As researchers have more closely examined the origins of the word faith signs and wonders movement, disturbing facts have emerged about the New Age higher thought and Christian Science that influenced E W Kenyon's theology. Coupled with the fact that Norman Vincent Peale's positive thinking theory was actually dictated to him by a spirit guide, it has to be wondered whether many leading the movement are actually Christian. Kenneth Hagin was an enthusiastic disciple of Kenyon, and used his teaching in his books. The prominent prosperity signs and wonders preachers, such as Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar and Jess Duplantis are disciples of Hagin. if it is a fact that the prosperity signs and wonders is not Christian (none of these men actually preach the Gospel, and therefore could be following a different Jesus to the Bible), then their manifestation of tongues, interpretation and prophecy could very well be coming from a spirit but not of the Holy Spirit. This would make the misuse of the gifts coming from people who are not even Christians, rather than immature believers.

This is a very good and interesting point.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is a very good and interesting point.

The word faith signs and wonders movement "fathered" by Kenneth Hagin is a totally new kind of Charismatic. While the original Pentecostal movement that started around 1902 was conservative and Gospel based (ie: Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins was the focus of the preaching), the neo-Charismatics have moved away from the Cross as its focus to signs and wonders and sensory/emotional experiences.

View older film clips of Pentecostal meetings, we saw them being conducted decently and in order, and the healing evangelists conducted orderly prayer lines with people coming with prayer cards outlining their particular needs. We saw little or no "slaying in the spirit", the prophecies given had meaning and purpose and were Scripture-based. The old time Pentecostals were holy men of prayer and of the Word.

There were some extreme groups called "holy rollers" but these were viewed as the lunatic fringe and not part of the mainstream. Although, Derek Prince said, If rolling makes us holy, then let's roll!"

But what we started to see with Hagin's ministry, we see more "occult touching" causing people to fall down backwards, uncontrolled laughter, crazy behaviour, screaming and groaning, 7/11 singing (7 words repeated 11 times) instead of meaningful hymns and songs. In a Todd Bentley worship session that lasted 3/4 of an hour, "Send the oil" was chanted over and over like an occult mantra, and the whole gather was an uncontrolled mess of screaming and yelling, falling down, and trance like behaviour. It looked like a complete demon fest to me. My old strict Pentecostal pastor of the 1970s would never have gone along with that kind of behaviour. If anyone acted silly in his meetings he would shut them up and tell them to sit down!

The tragedy in this is that this neo-Charismatic has taken over and become the mainstream and is now identified as the standard Charismatic movement. But it is a non-Christian movement and is deceiving multitudes, as Jesus and Paul predicted.

 

[ARBITER01]

As researchers have more closely examined the origins of the word faith signs and wonders movement, disturbing facts have emerged about the New Age higher thought and Christian Science that influenced E W Kenyon's theology. Coupled with the fact that Norman Vincent Peale's positive thinking theory was actually dictated to him by a spirit guide, it has to be wondered whether many leading the movement are actually Christian. Kenneth Hagin was an enthusiastic disciple of Kenyon, and used his teaching in his books. The prominent prosperity signs and wonders preachers, such as Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar and Jess Duplantis are disciples of Hagin. if it is a fact that the prosperity signs and wonders is not Christian (none of these men actually preach the Gospel, and therefore could be following a different Jesus to the Bible), then their manifestation of tongues, interpretation and prophecy could very well be coming from a spirit but not of the Holy Spirit. This would make the misuse of the gifts coming from people who are not even Christians, rather than immature believers.

Oh,.... so besides outright slandering other Christians, you think anyone not operating in the gifts correctly is really just an unbeliever instead of an immature believer.

Well what about this,....

A Christian in a service is prompted by The Holy Spirit to give a tongues message, and so that person follows through and does. The congregation then waits after the message, and then another person gives an interpretation by The Holy Spirit of that message that follows the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort standard in scripture.

This happens two more times in that service.

Was things scripturally correct?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh,.... so besides outright slandering other Christians, you think anyone not operating in the gifts correctly is really just an unbeliever instead of an immature believer.

Well what about this,....

A Christian in a service is prompted by The Holy Spirit to give a tongues message, and so that person follows through and does. The congregation then waits after the message, and then another person gives an interpretation by The Holy Spirit of that message that follows the Edification, Exhortation, and Comfort standard in scripture.

This happens two more times in that service.

Was things scripturally correct?

This is not slander. These are facts. The signs and wonders movement is heretical and is not based on sound doctrine. The AOG that I was introduced to in 1966 was totally different to the signs and wonders movement today. The Pentecostal pastor who discipled me over three years from 1970-72, would not have had a bar of what is going on in the current signs and wonders movement introduced by Kenneth Hagin.

 

[ARBITER01]

This is not slander. These are facts. The signs and wonders movement is heretical and is not based on sound doctrine. The AOG that I was introduced to in 1966 was totally different to the signs and wonders movement today. The Pentecostal pastor who discipled me over three years from 1970-72, would not have had a bar of what is going on in the current signs and wonders movement introduced by Kenneth Hagin.

Oh it most certainly is slander, but I'm not the one you need to worry about on that.

And you didn't answer my question.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Oh it most certainly is slander

Nope. It is not.

Tongue speakers just love to compete with a prepared sermon by a called minister.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oh it most certainly is slander, but I'm not the one you need to worry about on that.

And you didn't answer my question.

Seriously? Are you going to tell me that the 3/4 hour worship time in Todd Bentley's commissioning meeting in which the chanting of "send the oil" as a mantra, and widespread uncontrolled behaviour was the Holy Spirit? I don't see any of that in my Bible. And what about a prominent NAR pastor telling his congregation that the Holy Spirit told him that he needed to go further than being like Jesus, but was to progress to actually being Jesus? What about Todd White telling his gathering that instead of getting a climax through porno, God wants to be their climax, and that when someone commits adultery, God is in the bed with them closely watching the action? However could that be the Holy Spirit in a million years! Also, the totally uncontrolled behaviour seen in Kenneth Hagin's meetings where people were acting like total idiots, including Hagin himself? Is the Holy Spirit an idiot? I think not.

The Scripture says that those who depart from sound doctrine and teach doctrines of devils and encourage crazy behaviour in meetings, should be rebuked publicly so that others will learn. Calling out false leaders and teachers before all is not slander. It is alerting believers that this type of thing is not the Holy Spirit, but another spirit that is not of God.

 

[ARBITER01]

Nope. It is not.

Tongue speakers just love to compete with a prepared sermon by a called minister.

I'm not sure what that means.

And yes it is slander. Anything that is not loving your brother in Christ is wrong according to scripture.