Why hijab?

Bombila · Oct 9, 2008

I personally do not care if a woman wears hijab if that is her choice.

The problem is it seems certain men of all three Abrahamic religions do not want 'modesty' to be a woman's choice, but the choice of men.

This should link to my first post in this discussion, linking to some instances of these men exposing themselves as tyrants and misogynists:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=48864526&postcount=34

Making it worse is that far too many moderate men of these religions do not denounce these actions against women. Interpretations of modesty differ culture to culture and person to person. Beating, harassing, intimidating women into practicing your specific notion of what comprises modesty is wrong, and is happening far too often in too many places. Whining about the helplessness of men to control their own lust in the presence of ordinary women is a pitiful excuse, a cowardly and lazy laying of blame for one's own weakness on women, instead of squarely on yourselves where it clearly belongs, as multitudes of men, including men of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity prove every day by not being 'tempted' into immorality by the sight of ordinary women going about their business in whatever clothing they find comfortable and choose to wear.

Stop allowing your natural desire to defend your religions and your cultures to blind you to the excesses of your brothers, and instead look to raising up your sisters and protecting them from these fanatics.

Philothei · Oct 9, 2008

I guess we have to ask Mary why she wears Headscarf on her head in every picture and image of her? Why nuns do that,too?
I love Mary and I am proud of nuns who are decent and sacrificed their joy and happiness for the Creator and the real eternal happiness.
If you are a nun, at that time I might answer your questions.
Because I know that these words won't come from religious nuns who knew what happiness is.

this is off topic Mary has no place in your argument. Neither does the nuns....

The topic is the hijab and the sharia law in Islam

Religion is not what you desire to have, it is to give up what you love for the sake of the Creator.

Again God in the Old Testament says nothing about women obligation to wear the hijab.

Do you think that Muslim ladies, nuns, religious Jewish ladies are not normal women who wants to have fun in their life and they want to enjoy themselves in this life?

The "obedience" to the monastic habid has nothing to do with hijab. Different purpose and different life style.

Women in the respective religions are not "obligated" to a 'dress code" that enlsaves women and forbits their personal expression... God did not give us 'special dress code law"....

They are like you and like any other woman who loves the pleasures of this life but they sold the temporary for the eternal.
What will happen to you if you wear Hijab?

Are you accusing me of something? You do not know me and have no right to make personal attacks. Modest dressing has nothing to do with wearing a hijab. Also hijab (and it was someone here from your religion that said it ) does not quantee that the woman is pious...or her character so to make such a judgment is void of any truth.

What harm you will cause to others?

Seeing a woman who cannot walk right because she cannot see and cause a self injury is pleasant to see?

It is you the one who is wearing it. It is you the one who looks decent.
I don't go to your house and ask you to wear what I want. You choose to wear whatever you want because it is your personality not mine.

So.... are ALL muslims women wearing it out of their own free will? I do not think so... proof the ones who do not live in fear....

When you are a Christian asking about an Islamic practice like Hijab then your question should be out of curiosity not disrespect.
But if you are a Muslim who is trying to convence herself of not wearing Hijab , the case is different.

It is out of respect for the freedom of women in general that I do... If I did not care I would never imagine to ask...as I am not nosy by nature....only caring.

You are not a Muslims and you are asking about Islamic practice with a superior language. And you mentioned in the beginning that you will not allow us as Muslims to talk about the viel.

yeah because that is a thread about the hijab not the veiling... that is a different issue.

We could simply say, it is non of your buisness as long as this forum is for non-Christians but this is not our nature. We love to respect people as long as this respect is mutual.

How is it not respectful to ask not to 'switch " the conversation? I asked and out of respect you have to abide with the request. I also offered to discuss that with anyone if they open a thread... they denied...it...This is a non Christian forum ... You can open a thead in General Apologetics or here ... too no problem... But to derail this thread to prove your point... is polite??? or even logical?

You can present your point of view without humilating the other party.
I don't criticise you when you wear the cross, the sign of death to Jesus.
While you try hard to make us inferior to you.

When was I humiliating? Open a thread on that glad to discuss it....

I could of ignore your comments but because I know that there are millions or billions of good Jews, Christians and Muslims are reading and because I know that above them all the Creator is witnessing and His angels, too. And every word I say , He will ask me about.
I wish that you believe in the freedom of choice.

I am glad that you realize that there are all these faiths that believe differently than you and me.... I believe in the freedom of choice too ....I just do not understand why God would want you to wear something "added" to you because you are a woman... Does God truly changed his mind when he spoke in the Garden to both Adam and Eve? did he 'forgot' to tell Eve to wear the scarf on her head? ... :o
Would it be better if the Sharia law would have given a choice about the issue??? That I think would be freeing the women from that obligation.
Just some thoughts to think about ....

Philothei · Oct 9, 2008

If you ask any of the Muslim women in this forum, I can bet most, if not all of them, will tell you they wear the hijab willingly. What is your problem then?

That those who do not they will not come forth to tell me... off course.

The hijab is not to be worn so that women can see with only one eye. That is a poor description coming from you.

that was posted by Bombila about a cetain Immam...demanding they do... IT was not coming from me.

Only because there is NOTHING in Christianity that says wearing the hijab is morally wrong. A westernised or a 'modernist' view may think that way, and these views are just as willing to condemn Christian ethics as much as they are willing to look down on anything 'Islamic'.

No because it is not a "law" or sharia for Christians women to wear it.... The argument is that it is mandatory. You are "borrowing" the Christians to argue from their point...

Not true though Christianity is off topic here. And it does has to do with fundamentalism... and it does proves that Christianity is not fundamentalistic since the practice of covering is not MANDATORY... period. So christian practices have nothing to do withe the hijab. Your qua que ... is absolutely incredible.. but will not work here... sorry.

Why do you think it is offensive for women to wear hijab in Turkey and France? I do not think it is a 'law' to wear the hijab even in those countries, except in universities and probably those working in the civil service, maybe. Can you pls justify your claim that Turkey and Frnace has OUTLAWED the use of hijab?

Never said it was law is Turkey and France you missunderstood me. Read it again. I dd not say it was outlawed completety... but the public places... of course... It is still a law not to be worn in such places.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sharia

dnihila · Oct 9, 2008

Philothei said:
this is off topic Mary has no place in your argument. Neither does the nuns....
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* That what I expected you to say. This is a typical answer of yours whenever we mentioned something you asked us to leave and open a new thread about it. A forum is to be an open minded about what people will reply but not to keep their mouths shut or ask them to leave because their answer is not the thing you want to hear.
A Forum is like a basketball game, to score or to miss. But your arguments are kind of Hit and Run games and this is not acceptable.
As long as we answer your own questions, you are asked to answer ours.
And if the thread will be like, I don't want to hear you thing. Then this will be known about your character, that you are so stubborn and you can't let the conversation be mutual: I give you a chance to speak with respect, give me another. I answer all the questions you asked, answer all of mine in return.
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The topic is the hijab and the sharia law in Islam
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People will be close minded if they look at religion from one side only and people will be ignorant if they took one opinion as guaranteed. We are discussing Holy commands. What I told you about the viel of Mary is to let you see the similarities between Holy religions.
Otherwise, they won't be Holy.
As religious people, we count on the Word of The Almighty, first.
Second, We take the words of the messangers, prophets/chosen people.
And we compare. If what they asked people to destroy and harm others, then what they asked us long time ago is meaningless.
But they don't tell people to do things out of their own will. It is a Holy order by the Almighty to the people through those chosen ones.
It is your right to close the windows of your own house but it is our right to live, walk on streets, enjoy life and be happy.
Be Positive!
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Again God in the Old Testament says nothing about women obligation to wear the hijab.
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Great, do we have other Holy Abrahamic religions different than Judasim, Christianity and Islam that we don't know about?
What the three religions brought to us is what the religions in the Old Testament have. Why to bother mention them in the Bible if they are opposite to what Christianity, Judasim and Islam are.
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The "obedience" to the monastic habid has nothing to do with hijab. Different purpose and different life style.
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Wearing decent clothes is different???? How? Wearing Hijab or viel is different? How?
As long as you are trying to have that respect for yourself and others by respecting the public taste?
Fashion and shoes are not the end of my horizon. I can wear whatever I want and look so modern without wearing make up, perfumes and without taking off my Hijab.
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To Be Continued In The Creators' Will. ( Insha Allah= in my first language Arabic)

Islam_mulia · Oct 9, 2008

Philothei said:
That those who do not they will not come forth to tell me... off course.

Your concern is those Muslim women who wear the hijab, not those who did not wear. You, a Christian woman, somehow just could not accept the idea that some women prefer to wear the tiding or hijab.

Again, what exactly is your problem with these women?

Philothei said:
that was posted by Bombila about a cetain Immam...demanding they do... IT was not coming from me.

I am sure you are mature enough to engage in a fruitful dialogue. Why do you use an obscure example to push your point?

Philothei said:
No because it is not a "law" or sharia for Christians women to wear it.... The argument is that it is mandatory. You are "borrowing" the Christians to argue from their point...

It was a teaching of the bible, nonetheless to cover their heads in church. If your foundations are on the bible and tradition, and defended them when needed, why are you so shy to say the same foundations see no objection in women covering themselves? Do you not see this as pure hypocricy?

Philothei said:
Not true though Christianity is off topic here. And it does has to do with fundamentalism... and it does proves that Christianity is not fundamentalistic since the practice of covering is not MANDATORY... period. So christian practices have nothing to do withe the hijab. Your qua que ... is absolutely incredible.. but will not work here... sorry.

I did not say it is a 'mandatory' to wear the hijab in Christianity. In fact, there seems to be 'no law' in Christianity.

What I am pointing at is that your Christian ethics and teachings do not object to the hijab, if so prove to us. What is happening here is that your dislike for Islam somehow blinded your reasonings and you tend to slant to the modernist westernised view of looking at religions. Not realising this, the same views are against Christianity as they are agisnt islam and other religions.

Philothei said:
Never said it was law is Turkey and France you missunderstood me. Read it again. I dd not say it was outlawed completety... but the public places... of course... It is still a law not to be worn in such places.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sharia

Do you think other universities in the States and other parts of Europe that does not outlaw wearing the hijab are making a mistake? Do you think wearing a hijab would somehow make a woman less intelligent or a sign of rebellion against the establishment?

Philothei · Oct 9, 2008

Your concern is those Muslim women who wear the hijab, not those who did not wear. You, a Christian woman, somehow just could not accept the idea that some women prefer to wear the tiding or hijab.

Not true and deraling the tread with non-important about me questions and motives that are imaginery....

Again, what exactly is your problem with these women?

Already stated it.

I am sure you are mature enough to engage in a fruitful dialogue. Why do you use an obscure example to push your point?

lol.... another personal attack, instead of dealing with the issue at hand...

It was a teaching of the bible, nonetheless to cover their heads in church. If your foundations are on the bible and tradition, and defended them when needed, why are you so shy to say the same foundations see no objection in women covering themselves? Do you not see this as pure hypocricy?

We are not discussing the Bible and its teachings but the hijab here ..... It has liturgical/worship usage totally different from the "law of hijab"....

I did not say it is a 'mandatory' to wear the hijab in Christianity. In fact, there seems to be 'no law' in Christianity.

off topic again...moot point merely repeating again and again the same....

What I am pointing at is that your Christian ethics and teachings do not object to the hijab, if so prove to us. What is happening here is that your dislike for Islam somehow blinded your reasonings and you tend to slant to the modernist westernised view of looking at religions. Not realising this, the same views are against Christianity as they are agisnt islam and other religions.

They do not have laws about covering.

Do you think other universities in the States and other parts of Europe that does not outlaw wearing the hijab are making a mistake? Do you think wearing a hijab would somehow make a woman less intelligent or a sign of rebellion against the establishment?

No I do not think it is a rebellion to the establishment or nothing of what you say. I think that outlaw wearing hijab has its value in liberating women from a law that forces them to wear something that it should be voluntary.

Philothei · Oct 9, 2008

But your arguments are kind of Hit and Run games and this is not acceptable.
As long as we answer your own questions, you are asked to answer ours.

when I ask you about a muslim law you want to asnwer it by talking about a christian practice? How is this helping the conversation? It does not you merely "turn" the talk away from that law to the other in hope to avoid the converstation how is this fair?

Then this will be known about your character, that you are so stubborn and you can't let the conversation be mutual: I give you a chance to speak with respect, give me another. I answer all the questions you asked, answer all of mine in return.

I never characterised you or your character why are you doing this to me? how is this respectful? I explained in the op I do not wish to talk about the Christian practice I am honest. This thread was not about you asking questions... about christianity. It was directed to Islam. I appreciate all of you answering. I am not asking you to leave just not to derail the thread if you have nothing more to add on the topic

Hope that clarifies

And we compare.

This is not a comparison thread. I am not being difficult just honest with you

Wearing decent clothes is different???? How? Wearing Hijab or viel is different? How?
As long as you are trying to have that respect for yourself and others by respecting the public taste?
Fashion and shoes are not the end of my horizon. I can wear whatever I want and look so modern without wearing make up, perfumes and without taking off my Hijab.

Now this is converstation and thank you for that response truly thankful dnihila

Wearing modest clothes is not an obligation right? We should agree at that...

We do that out of love and respect for our fellow humans and God. That much I agree. But....and it is a big one we are not "obligated" to do so... We have a choice and we do so out of our free will as women and also men do so too...

When hijab becomes an obligation it looses its purpose as it "negates" our God given right to chose...and ALSo int he case of Islam it becomes a strumbling stone to women's free choice of dressing in a modest way since they dress in a super oppressive way... examples : one eye only showing, burca with only holes so women cannot really see...ect... extremes that may satisfy the men of Islam but torture the women...

also women who wear the hijab do fall into the temptation of eye make up, fashionable shoes and etc....

MichaelNZ · Oct 9, 2008

The following video is a scene from Not Without My Daughter, based on Betty Mahmoody's true account of her time in Iran with her Iranian husband's family.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPYrXZpc2kw

Betty reports the same incident in her book of the same name, where she was forced at gunpoint to cover her hair the Islamic way.

Catherineanne · Oct 10, 2008

anatolian said:
It's not what people say but what Allah says is important..Just to make that detail and whole thread through that detail clear..

This is quite simply untrue. The Koran does not say that women have to wear full face veils and other forms of excessive covering. It says they must be modest. Fine, they can be modest and wear western dress, just as much as more traditional dress. Modesty is about how you behave and who you are, not about what you wear.

Make no mistake, if the Imams are saying more than the Koran actually says, they are taking God's place and commiting the very worst sin there is, which is blasphemy. And this includes the madman who says women who show both eyes are too provocative, and says that they should show only one. This man will answer to God for his sin.

Philothei · Oct 10, 2008

<H3>

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab#Hadith
Some Muslims believe hijab covering for women should be compulsory as part of Sharia law. Wearing of the hijab was enforced by the Taliban regime, and is enforced in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and in the Islamic Republic of Iran. The Prosecutor-General, Abolfazl Musavi-Tabrizi, has been quoted as saying: "Any one who rejects the principle of hijab in Iran is an apostate and the punishment for an apostate under Islamic law is death."[26] The Taliban's Islamic Emirate required women to cover not only their head but their face as well, because "the face of a woman is a source of corruption" for men not related to them.[27] While some women wholeheartedly embrace the rules, others protest by observing the rules in slipshod or inconsistent fashion, or flouting them whenever possible.

[edit] Non-governmental

Non-governmental enforcement of hijab is found in many parts of the Muslim world.
Successful informal coercion of women by sectors of society to wear hijab has been reported in Gaza where Mujama' al-Islami, the predecessor of HAMAS, reportedly used "a mixture of consent and coercion" to "`restore` hijab" on urban educated women in Gaza in the late 1970s and 1980s.[28]
In France, according to journalist Jane Kramer, veiling among school girls became increasingly common following the 9/11 Attack of 2001, due to coercion by "fathers and uncles and brothers and even their male classmates" of the school girls. "Girls who did not conform were excoriated, or chased, or beaten by fanatical young men meting out `Islamic justice.`" [29] According to the American magazine Weekly Standard, a survey conducted in France in May 2003 reportedly "found that 77% of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups." [30]
According to a Rand Corporation commentary by Cheryl Benard, "in Pakistan, Kashmir, and Afghanistan, hundreds of women have been blinded or maimed when acid was thrown on their unveiled faces by male fanatics who considered them improperly dressed," for failure to wear hijab. [31] An example being a 2001 "acid attack on four young Muslim women in Srinagar ... by an unknown militant outfit, and the swift compliance by women of all ages on the issue of wearing the chadar (head-dress) in public." [32][33][34]
Islamists in other countries have been accused of attacking or threatening to attack the faces of women in an effort to intimidate them from wearing of makeup or allegedly immodest dress. [35] [36] [37]

</H3>

There are some of the practices and the violence it leeds to if.....women chose NOT TO WEAR it... No thanks I would rather not have acid thrown on my face...

.....

Also the Koran does mention women should be veiled... allow me to disagree I found this for starters.....

033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Click to expand...

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/033.qmt.html#033.058

dnihila · Oct 10, 2008

Philothei said:
Women in the respective religions are not "obligated" to a 'dress code" that enlsaves women and forbits their personal expression... God did not give us 'special dress code law"....
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How can I tell the difference between a wealthy woman and a poor woman? It is by the way they look. By the trade mark they are carrying in their bags, by the 5000 dollars suit compared to a 50 dollars blouse and 50 dollars skirt. The idea is equality. You are allowed whatever you want infront of other woman in your society whether it is a wealthy class or a poor class and you are also asked to wear decent clothes ( not showy ) ones. If you go outside your own private society, you will meet the poor and the needy people. The fat , the slim and the handicapped and the message you are sending by implying your own character. How would you feel if you pass by a homeless or a very poor woman? Will you feel proud that you have more money than her to wear those expensive clothes?
The idea of wearing one color Hijab is to cancel classes differences. Because everyone can offord to by that peice of cloth it is very cheap. But when you talk about the color then it shouldn't be black, it can be any color as long as it is decent.
If I am invited to a party or if I want to visit a friend or I am going into my work, I will wear the suitable clothes I want. But if I am going to the market where men and woman are together, I will wear something that won't make me different than any other woman. I don't go outside to tell men, hey I am here. I arrived into this place. It is following the general custom of an Islamic country. Certain colors and certain clothes to wear to avoid being different.
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Are you accusing me of something? You do not know me and have no right to make personal attacks. Modest dressing has nothing to do with wearing a hijab. Also hijab (and it was someone here from your religion that said it ) does not quantee that the woman is pious...or her character so to make such a judgment is void of any truth.
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Just using the word you means that I am accusing you. I said that everyone has the right to enjoy life the way they want but wearing Hijab is a big sign to carry on the heads of every proud religious woman. I am proud to Muslim. I am proud to be Christian and I am proud to be Jew.
If some Muslim women don't wear Hijab, this means that they are ashamed of who they are. Hijab is not only black cloack and black headscarf. It can by anything decent to wear in any color,nothing seductive.
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Seeing a woman who cannot walk right because she cannot see and cause a self injury is pleasant to see?
Why can't they see? Maybe you are talking about the extremists. Islam is not the extremists, Islam is Islam. If those people decided to turn the Holy commands into their own wishes, then whatever they do is not Islamic. They just went to the extrem away from being in the middle-not too loose not too tight.
This balancing they forgot that it is the halter of their deliverance.
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So.... are ALL muslims women wearing it out of their own free will? I do not think so... proof the ones who do not live in fear....
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Fear of what? When you buy a new machine, won't you look at the catalogue to know how to use it? If your mother has one and knows how to run that machine, will you listen to her or you will just ignore her and read the catalogue? While she wanted you to save time and energy and she gives you her experience, too.
If your father warned you not to marry a particular guy and you didn't listen to find yourself in trouble with that guy at the end and you will be full of regret.
It is the same, If religions put fences around you then this means that their is something they are afraid that it will happen to you. Otherwise they will let you free in the middle of nowhere to be dead or to be lost.
It is out of care and safty, we build walls in our houses to protect ourselves. Only animals live in the woods and they also have their nature to protect them. The smooth snake has poison. The hairy wolf has tusks.
The friendly hairy bear is very huge. Look around you and you will understand that their is hidden wisedom in everything. Guns, bombs are not means of protection, they are means of destruction because we ( humans ) made them outside the Holy Fences.
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It is out of respect for the freedom of women in general that I do... If I did not care I would never imagine to ask...as I am not nosy by nature....only caring.
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And I appreciate your caring nature and the interest you have to know about Islam. Sometimes you have to bear the dust after opening a dusty book.
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yeah because that is a thread about the hijab not the veiling... that is a different issue.
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But women are women wherever they are. What hurt them hurts me and what hurts me hurt them. It is about freedom inside, you belong to yourself, you are not anyones free toy to look at. Men won't value you if you are easy to be looked at and easy to reach. This piece of cloth is my strength. It presents my chastity, my respectable personality to myself and to everything around me that I don't want to be the centre of attention, to push any fat girls from my way because I am slimmer and the clothes I chose are suitable for slim girls. To push away any poor girls from my way because they can't afford buying pretty clothes like mine???
We are all the same, no one is better than the other and this is how you are appreciated through your appreciation to others.
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How is it not respectful to ask not to 'switch " the conversation? I asked and out of respect you have to abide with the request. I also offered to discuss that with anyone if they open a thread... they denied...it...This is a non Christian forum ... You can open a thead in General Apologetics or here ... too no problem... But to derail this thread to prove your point... is polite??? or even logical?
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How am I suppose to talk to you as a Christian without mentionening anything about Christianity as long as you as a Christian is asking us as Muslims about Islam?
How do you want me to reply. Do teachers bring aliens to class to explain how kids should eat their meal? I take examples from your religion and from your life to make you understand us as Muslims.
Did you open a thread to share or to be alone?
One rule we all should know is that a good debater is the one who take every question seriousely and answer it without giving a meaningless comment to avoid answering the question. If you don't know, you say I don't know. If you don't want to answer the question , you say I don't want to answer the question and of course there will be a gap of no answered questions from your side. This is your thread and you have to persuade us of your point of view. The thing is, you will be busy all the time replying to the posts in your thread. Have that Big Heart and Patience to teach and to learn at the same time. We are not gods or angels we are humans who can make mistakes and forget.
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When was I humiliating? Open a thread on that glad to discuss it....

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How many threads do we need to face facts and accept them as they are.
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I am glad that you realize that there are all these faiths that believe differently than you and me.... I believe in the freedom of choice too ....I just do not understand why God would want you to wear something "added" to you because you are a woman... Does God truly changed his mind when he spoke in the Garden to both Adam and Eve? did he 'forgot' to tell Eve to wear the scarf on her head? ... :o
Would it be better if the Sharia law would have given a choice about the issue??? That I think would be freeing the women from that obligation.
Just some thoughts to think about ....

__________________
Freedom of choice doesn't include drugs, cigarettes, prostitution, suicide, ...etc because they all harm your body.
But what harms your soul?
Have anyone thought of the unseen harm you may cause to your soul?
Of course not, because the harm is a long distance result and not an immediate one.
Holy commands are for long destinations but not for short ones.
People learned that the immediate pleasure is what happiness is.
People trained their bodies of the 60 minutes pleasures and their destination is planned by steps to follow without thinking. A day of 24 hours is a sunrise and a sunset. A beginning and an end but that also didn't teach people to have limits and barriers.
And that's what made people move like robots, in every life matter.
We are not made of body only. We are a soul and body. And the thing you ignored, is the thing that lasts forever which is your soul.
Nurish it with Holy Books and let it reach the peace and happiness.
At Adam's and Eve's time , there were no one but them and the devil can't see them because of the barrier made by the Creator and after eating from the forbidden Tree, they lost privacy and they were asked to leave and that's why they were asked to obey the guidance will be sent to them on Earth.
Eve is the Mother of all humans and she is allowed to not wear headscarf. But Adam and Eve don't live alone, there are jinns and devils to see Adam and Eve and then to find a way to hurt them. That's why the first reaction to Adam and Eve is to cover their private parts although they are a husband and a wife. But it is a human nature to be shy and to show respect to the Almighty.
Eve is an example to her daughters and to be an example is to do what you asked people to do. Eve is not an angel, she is a human and the mother of the humankind and if she is not doing what humans are asked to do, then she is not an example to them. How a mother give advises without applying them herself.
And remember, whenever we talk about the Almighty, we don't talk about Him the same way we talk about Humans. You may read the 99 names of the Almighty to know how to describe Him and how to talk about Him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God_in_the_Qur'an

Islam_mulia · Oct 10, 2008

Philothei said:
</H3>
There are some of the practices and the violence it leeds to if.....women chose NOT TO WEAR it... No thanks I would rather not have acid thrown on my face... .....

The violence does not imply that the use of hijab is morally wrong. The action may be excessive but the objective of wearing the hijab is something that you have not shown to be evil or wrong.

Philothei said:
Also the Koran does mention women should be veiled... allow me to disagree I found this for starters.....

You berated the issue of wearing the hijab in the Quran for many pages and only now you come up with the objective of wearing the hijab?

anatolian · Oct 11, 2008

Catherineanne said:
This is quite simply untrue. The Koran does not say that women have to wear full face veils and other forms of excessive covering. It says they must be modest. Fine, they can be modest and wear western dress, just as much as more traditional dress. Modesty is about how you behave and who you are, not about what you wear.

Make no mistake, if the Imams are saying more than the Koran actually says, they are taking God's place and commiting the very worst sin there is, which is blasphemy. And this includes the madman who says women who show both eyes are too provocative, and says that they should show only one. This man will answer to God for his sin.

Yes, ,it might be important what people say in this world since that effects your life but I mean 'in real' ,essantially what Allah says is important since that effects your both lifes,this and after-life, if you believe.

I wanted to write a story of Nasreddin Hodja related to this case

"One day Nasreddin Hodja and his young son were on their way to the market. The Hodja was riding his donkey and his son was walking beside him. As they travelled such, they heard a couple of villagers who happened to be passing by, speak disapprovingly about them.
`Look at our Hodja Effendi,' one said to the other, `he is comfortably riding on his donkey and letting his little boy walk along. Shame on the Hodja for making the boy suffer like that!' When Nasreddin Hodja heard this, he wanted to rectify what was perceived as his selfishness. He put his son on the donkey and he started to walk beside. Shortly after, they met another couple of villagers.
`Look at the Hodja and his son!' they said, `These are the times we are living in. A young boy is riding on the donkey and his poor old father is sweating to keep the pace. Today's children have no respect for their parents.' Nasreddin Hodja found some reason in this comment and thought of another remedy. They both got off of the donkey and started to walk beside it. A little while later, a group of villagers, also going to the market, approached the procession of the Hodja, the son and the donkey, all walking one after the other.
`This Hodja Effendi and his son have no minds, whatsoever.' they whispered amongst themselves, `They are both beating on their feet and the donkey is strolling along. Don't these people know what a donkey is for?' Hodja heard this and thought they had a point. The solution was clear. Both he and his son sat on the donkey. As they continued their trip this way, thinking that they have finally complied with all the opinions of their fellow villagers, they met another of their acquaintances. He was not very happy to see both the Hodja and the boy on a scrawny donkey.
`Hodja Effendi,' he yelled, `don't you know no mercy? How is this poor little animal supposed to carry two people? The donkey is also Allah's creation, have some pity.' Nasreddin Hodja agreed with this last remark as well. What were they to do? He shouldered the front body of the donkey and his son took on the back part, and they carried the donkey to the market place."

Philothei · Oct 11, 2008

How can I tell the difference between a wealthy woman and a poor woman? It is by the way they look. By the trade mark they are carrying in their bags, by the 5000 dollars suit compared to a 50 dollars blouse and 50 dollars skirt. The idea is equality. You are allowed whatever you want infront of other woman in your society whether it is a wealthy class or a poor class and you are also asked to wear decent clothes ( not showy ) ones. If you go outside your own private society, you will meet the poor and the needy people. The fat , the slim and the handicapped and the message you are sending by implying your own character. How would you feel if you pass by a homeless or a very poor woman? Will you feel proud that you have more money than her to wear those expensive clothes?
The idea of wearing one color Hijab is to cancel classes differences. Because everyone can offord to by that peice of cloth it is very cheap. But when you talk about the color then it shouldn't be black, it can be any color as long as it is decent.
If I am invited to a party or if I want to visit a friend or I am going into my work, I will wear the suitable clothes I want. But if I am going to the market where men and woman are together, I will wear something that won't make me different than any other woman. I don't go outside to tell men, hey I am here. I arrived into this place. It is following the general custom of an Islamic country. Certain colors and certain clothes to wear to avoid being different.

Hijab does not guarantee any of such "class diferentiations". Hjabs can be made out of silk just the same as any cheap material etc... That is a non-argument. Also does not negate the fact men can 'imagine' what is behind the hijab either. Modest dressing also can be as effective in providing "coverage" as the hijab... Bad comparison and example....

Fear of what? When you buy a new machine, won't you look at the catalogue to know how to use it? If your mother has one and knows how to run that machine, will you listen to her or you will just ignore her and read the catalogue? While she wanted you to save time and energy and she gives you her experience, too.

What this has to do with wearing a piece of cloth that you are obligated to ?

If your father warned you not to marry a particular guy and you didn't listen to find yourself in trouble with that guy at the end and you will be full of regret.

? nothing to do witht he topic either...

It is the same, If religions put fences around you then this means that their is something they are afraid that it will happen to you. Otherwise they will let you free in the middle of nowhere to be dead or to be lost.
It is out of care and safty, we build walls in our houses to protect ourselves.

Religion should not 'fence you in" actually religion should 'bring you out' not to be "afraid of others and suspicious of others" quite the opposite.The reason we have walls should be against heat and cold and the elements. We need no walls if we are truly humans and we use our logic not to harm others.

Only animals live in the woods and they also have their nature to protect them. The smooth snake has poison. The hairy wolf has tusks.

So.... you are protecting yourself with the hijab as so that men will not be that? ARe men wild animals? I think not...

The friendly hairy bear is very huge. Look around you and you will understand that their is hidden wisedom in everything.

I am not taught that the world is my enemy... I am told that I came to love the world and my fellow man not to look upon them with suspicion.

Guns, bombs are not means of protection, they are means of destruction because we ( humans ) made them outside the Holy Fences.

That does not mean we have to have "high fences" to overcome them... What a hijab will do in a case of the bomb? protect you how? except if you are planning to wear a metal one... Then I can see your point.

The whole idea is to 'put down our fences" and dialogue not to put them up high to protect from even dialoguing

How am I suppose to talk to you as a Christian without mentionening anything about Christianity as long as you as a Christian is asking us as Muslims about Islam?
How do you want me to reply. Do teachers bring aliens to class to explain how kids should eat their meal? I take examples from your religion and from your life to make you understand us as Muslims.
Did you open a thread to share or to be alone?
One rule we all should know is that a good debater is the one who take every question seriousely and answer it without giving a meaningless comment to avoid answering the question. If you don't know, you say I don't know. If you don't want to answer the question , you say I don't want to answer the question and of course there will be a gap of no answered questions from your side. This is your thread and you have to persuade us of your point of view. The thing is, you will be busy all the time replying to the posts in your thread. Have that Big Heart and Patience to teach and to learn at the same time. We are not gods or angels we are humans who can make mistakes and forget.

I do not want you come and say "well, in Christianity they do this thus I am justified ....." That does not justify what the Koran says about hijab. When one examines a custom that has a root on that religion then it is that religion that has to have the answer for its own practice. The responsibility of that action is in that particular religion not what the other one does ....
it is quo que... to do that.

I am not avoiding any question I just want to talk about Islam and it seems any thread in this forum that tries to do that it turns to a "let us shoot down christianity" thread...

As I have been respectful to you and others then be respectful to me.

Anatolian gave me a answer that I think made a lot of sense he just stated it as beign God-centered.. and at this point I think that is the whole point... That Allah makes that discrimination and calls out for women to be covered. How is this though fair? ???

Philothei · Oct 11, 2008

Anatolian, That Hodja story remind me my mom telling me his stories.....lol.... Always wise and ultimately funny..... ....

thanks for sharing.... You can post some more if you want to share them with us. Those are stories us Greeks love and remind us of our past times...... Truly gems of Ottoman Turkish wisdom

On the topic though still I think I agree with K that the Immams do enforce certain haddiths and thus we see how if you are a mulsim you have to follow them...

opinions of men?? well immams are not "any men" though they are leaders and they have influence... Turkey is different as the women in Islam there do not 'have to" wear it... Still though as mulsims are with the "fear" or obligation to do so at times...

Philothei · Oct 11, 2008

Islam_mulia said:
The violence does not imply that the use of hijab is morally wrong. The action may be excessive but the objective of wearing the hijab is something that you have not shown to be evil or wrong.
Yes, it does as those crimes stem from that teaching. How can it be "good" if it makes no difference whether one wears it or not i.e. rape and adultery.. (shown that) and secondly it is forced... (that too was shown as it is a law of Sharia).... I did not say it is 'evil" but wrong to enforce...

You berated the issue of wearing the hijab in the Quran for many pages and only now you come up with the objective of wearing the hijab?

Wearing the hijab is in the haddiths...Koran also talks about it too. I do not see anything contradictory... Veiled or not it is both obligatory. The obligatory nature of the hijab plus the extremism of its use....such a a full dress such as the Burqa is what is wrong.

seashale76 · Oct 11, 2008

I read this article and it fits with this thread: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7593765.stm

It is very interesting that wearing Hijab or not has no effect on sexual harassment of women in Egypt (on a large scale). Apparently, wearing Hijab has no bearing on how men view women and their bodies in this primarily Muslim society. This is very sad.

seashale76 · Oct 11, 2008

Philothei said:
Just wanted to know why women in Islam wear it and also support it?

Are islam women given a choice? ARe those who do not wear it any less "muslim" than the other who wear it? Are they not considered mulsims?

Some women aren't given a choice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcz3TYqWpwc

These poor Saudi girls are wearing abayas and are still being sexually harassed. It is apparent that dressing modestly (even excessively so where one can't even be seen as a real person with a face) doesn't seem to affect things when it comes to how Muslim women are treated on the streets. This is so sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqhxNMIGum0

dnihila · Oct 11, 2008

Philothei said:
Hijab does not guarantee any of such "class diferentiations". Hjabs can be made out of silk just the same as any cheap material etc... That is a non-argument. Also does not negate the fact men can 'imagine' what is behind the hijab either. Modest dressing also can be as effective in providing "coverage" as the hijab... Bad comparison and example....
______________
It can be made of silk for the ones who cares about materials but not spirits. A prostitute can wear Hijab and walk on streets trying to fish for men and money, taking Islam as a protection. She can trick people but she can't trick the Almighty. But people will still look at her as a very religious woman.
A respectable woman can walk without Hijab and she can wear decent clothes also but in her way she will encourage men to look at her and she will be in prostitution, seduction business without being involved in a relationship.
But what if we take the Hijab and let a respectable woman wear it. Won't the image of perfection is complete, pure and decent from inside and outside.
And you keep on taking us back to the starting point.
What's inside reflects on the outside. Inside belongs to the Almighty and outside is the humans way to judge you.
Freedom is to move and to act without stepping into someone's property.
Hijab means to wear it around your neck and to cover your ears and hair with.
No showy parts of the breast, no short sleeves, no tight shirts or dresses to show the details of your body, no tight jeans and short T.Shirts, no belly showing, no shorts, no micro skirts, no short skirts.
And all the above you can wear with limitations infront of your family and your friends ( girls) and you have no limits with what you wear infront of your husband.
This point lead us to talk about men. It is not only the woman who is asked to be decent and pure while men are free to do whatever they want. They are also asked to treat the woman with respect but not with a big question in the mind which is what will happen after talking to her?
A decent woman can't walk properly if men are staring at her. A decent woman will be embarrassed if men are saying words that describe the woman's beauty which is an impolite action to be done.
Beautiful women and the attractive ones know themselves and don't need reminders.
Just save your energy for your future wives.
*******************
What this has to do with wearing a piece of cloth that you are obligated to ?
______________________
This has to do with following a plan that you may not understand or you may feel it is not necessary with no extra explanations to you. Be humble and obey the Creator's commands.
Only the ones with vain in their hearts keep on questioning the Creator and He gave them books to follow that He didn't throw them into Hell without Guidance but that seems to be not enough.
Maybe being grilled in Hell will help them at that time to understand.
A body which is dirty with sins needs to be cleaned and recreated.
And no one want that experience to go through.
No one enters the Heaven with a pepper size of Vain in his/her heart.

********************
? nothing to do witht he topic either...
____________________
It has all the realtions with the topic. When people with experience tell you to avoid something then you have to avoid it. Otherwise, we don't need teachers, doctors, granparents, lawyers...etc to ask them for an advise. Hijab is a Holy advise. And Holy means not mistaken and the danger it is warning you from is beyond your imagination.
*********************
Religion should not 'fence you in" actually religion should 'bring you out' not to be "afraid of others and suspicious of others" quite the opposite.The reason we have walls should be against heat and cold and the elements. We need no walls if we are truly humans and we use our logic not to harm others.
________________
Then why do people wear clothes? If it is only to protect their private parts then let them be just like the jungle men and put big leaves on their private parts and that's it.
You wear clothes to cover your body. Then why a topless man regarded as an impolite man?
Why wearing very short skirts is regarded impolite?
Do you think theat the Almighty doesn't know that there will be times when women will wear such undecent clothes?
But He gave you the command to the part ( the head ) to cover and of course you will match the head cover with decent clothes. Because it is not acceptable to walk with bikini and a head scarf.
The Almighty gives us headlines and we should of be able to understand what's the good thing to do and how to interpret those commands.
**********************

So.... you are protecting yourself with the hijab as so that men will not be that? ARe men wild animals? I think not...
_______________
Would you please switch your attention to my words and read the article as one piece because you will be lost if you keep on picking sentences to understand them the way you like. When I brought the example of animals as what we take them as brainless creatures, they know more than humans and they have a natural protection to them although they walk with same kind animals. The protection I am talking about is not only the men with negative thinking toward women, but I am talking about what else we will give up after Hijab?
Women who decided to give up Hijab are single moms, their daughters are pregnant illegaly, they live with their boyfriends as a husnband and a wife, some of them have abnormal relations even with animals? What else do you want us to give up after Hijab? Forbidden Videos are made of forbidden relationships for everyone to watch by the ones who don't wear Hijab. What else do you want us to give up after Hijab? Night clubs for naked people were built. Night clubs for stripteasers were built. Is that the freedom you are talking about? The Freedom of disease and sickness?
You blame us for being so decent with Hijab and so uncivilized by not opening such places for everyone to go to and then new big hospitals are built to cure the mistakes of freedom. Billions of doctors work in laboratories to cure the results of your sins.
Is that the aim of life? To live to have pleasures and to get sick and die.
What a nice dream for a narrow minded people.
Hijab is a sign for chastity, I lived a clean life and I will die pure. In the Creator's will- Insha' Allah.
********************
I am not taught that the world is my enemy... I am told that I came to love the world and my fellow man not to look upon them with suspicion.

______________
You are taught to fall in love with every cute man you see with no limits.
You are taught to not drink alcohol until you reach 21.
You are taught that virgin girls are stupid and the girls who have more than one relationship are clever ones.
Your knowledghe is the knowledge of Desires that won't be full and will always seek for more. Your knowledge is the knowledge of ( How to Go to Hell?).
Because Hell out of anger asked the Almighty to fill it with sinners and can't get enough till the Almighty put His foot in it to enjoy torturing the sinners.
This knowledge just took you to the extreme. Churchs are built for girls to marry girls and boys to marry boys. Is that a Holy knowledge?
Why decent clothed buisness woman go to work and have forbidden relations in the bathrooms?
Did the decent clothes stopped them from being sinners.
It is the belief and nothing but the FAITH which will make you obey everything the Creator asks you to do without questioning.
You all lived you lives and enjoyed every second in it but this joy you had will be a forward price you payed to not have the after life joy unless the Almighty forgives you after stopping all the bad deeds and starting a new clean life.
********************

That does not mean we have to have "high fences" to overcome them... What a hijab will do in a case of the bomb? protect you how? except if you are planning to wear a metal one... Then I can see your point.
______________
I can see that you have a sense of humor but I can't laugh because the situation is more serious than any can ever imagine.
When the Almighty is angry, no one will do anything more than what have been done.
And I also can see that your only concern is life. How to live, how to enjoy life, how to be happy, how to keep everything you want, but a very simple thing to do you are not ready to do for the Sake of the Almighty.
Then maybe you need more disasters in your life to learn.
Blessed people are the ones who obey without questioning and cursed ones can't get the devil out of their minds and he speaks in their behalf.
Well, if the helmet is my Hijab then this means that I am driving a dangerous vehicle on a road that is not gauranteed to be safe.
Can't you see the similarities?
******************
The whole idea is to 'put down our fences" and dialogue not to put them up high to protect from even dialoguing
_______________________
So, we are back to the point of Prejudice idea of tell me what you wear and I will judge you. If I speak then it is me, my personality, my faith, my knowledge , my wit speak but not my 2008 Hebbie Hijab.
Your ideas are so old. And they are held by the women who are fighting for their rights and reached nowhere because they are trying hard to copy men. And there is a big huge difference between them. But those kinds of women can't see it.
The last ones to call for woman rights are the religious Christian ladies, nuns, religious Jewish ladies and real Muslim ladies.
Would you please tell me why?
Or poor ladies, they don't know what's good for them.
Oh, they are so pathatic. Let us let them take off their veil and Hijab to let them be free.
Let them tie their hair up and fly into the sky with their helicopter bony tails. Let them be free.

To Be Continued. In the Almighty's will.

dnihila · Oct 12, 2008

Read the following:
1.O Prophet, fear Allah and do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
7.And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant.

12.And [remember] when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease said, "Allah and His Messenger did not promise us except delusion,"
Hypocrites again and people with sick hearts.
19.Indisposed toward you. And when fear comes, you see them looking at you, their eyes revolving like one being overcome by death. But when fear departs, they lash you with sharp tongues, indisposed toward [any] good. Those have not believed, so Allah has rendered their deeds worthless, and ever is that, for Allah, easy.
24.That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth and punish the hypocrites if He wills or accept their repentance. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.
26. And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] a party you killed, and you took captive a party.
33.And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.
35.Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
Men are mentioned first because Adam was created first and as the one who protects Eve for having stronger body shape.
Look at the arrangement of the Faith:
1. believe 2. obey 3. say the truth 4. be patient 5. be humble 6. give charity 7. fast 8. protect your private parts from forbidden relationships. 9. always praise the Almighty and remember Him.
Those are the roots of any strong believer and if you have them all in your faith then you will be rewarded.
And they simplify why women need to wear Hijab.
48. And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
55.There is no blame upon women concerning their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their brothers’ sons or their sisters’ sons or their women or those their right hands possess. And fear Allah. Indeed Allah is ever, over all things, Witness.
59.O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.
60. If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.
Hypocrites show up again in every bad episode that happens to believers.
And finally, we can see the end of the sinners and the reward for the believers:
73.[It was] so that Allah may punish the hypocrite men and hypocrite women and the men and women who associate others with Him and that Allah may accept repentance from the believing men and believing women. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Allah/God/YHWH is the All Knowing.

Why hijab?

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