Why hijab?

[Philothei]

Well Philothei, that way discussion is not proceeding, since you don't even consider what I say and keep on repeating what you said, you are saying that women are responsible for men's weakness and that males have an excuse, I kept on explaining it telling that males don'e have an excuse and they also sin even if the temptation is so great, but the woman also sin for helping him to be lust. You ignore this and keep on saying that it is only the responsibility of women, what shall I do if you are closed minded and doesn't hear the other side, only insist on what you say?

STill men do not want to take responsibility of their actiosn and "blame" it on the women... Proof is that they women who "men" commit rape within the family kill their women for the shame... instead of dealing with their own passions... and shortcomings. That is typical muslim man reaction... it is always the woman's fault...even killing their daughter even it they "raped" her... What the hijab the problem there??? No ...But it was the woman's fault.

I kept on saying that it limits adultery, you keep on saying that I say it eliminates it then refute the supposed claim that there is still adultery in Muslim countries, again and for the last time, I will illustrate it now, a country without applying Islamic laws concerning hijab and segregation and many other laws concerning the doors to adultery may have 100 adultery cases per month for example (I say any number), another country closing all doors to adultery may have 10 adultery cases, can you understand the difference now? I'll give another example, it was found in a country that it has 5000 car accidents per year, so the government is trying to reduce it, so they begin to put more firm laws, and check the efficiency of the drivers, so after applying these rules, accidents were reduced to 500 only. This is the same case concerning the West and the Middle East, for example when I hear that the average male mates for an Australian woman is 13 guys, that's terrific, in case of Eastern countries, this is not the case at all, there may be single cases of adultery, but not that way.

Those examples you bring have nothing to do with the hijab. There are lot of things that go unreported nowadays. The t.v. the internet etc. level out many of the societies nowadays. Adultery in the Islamic countries can also be a privete issue.

When I tell you that women don't look to men the same way men do as men usually look for beauty more while women look to love and personality more, and give the examples of women not interested while being raped, and that men don't work as prostitutes, you totally evaded the issue, and either keeping on saying what you said before or saying this is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant since male prostitution is different that female... It is hard to track it down as female is usually easier...And what does it prove? that mulsim women do not seek male prostitutes because they wear the hijab... Any proof there?
No....
Women not "interested" in being raped???No clue what you say here. I would hope so.. How can this be? I would hope they are not "interested" actually... with or without hijab rapes take place in your coutnry as well everywhere...

You first objected when you thought I say women are free to wear saying that this way hijab doesn't perform its job, when I told you that they should wear the hijab, you began to play on the freedom of women, and how do you judge them on what they wear, you just want to object, whether hijab is mandatory or not, I said that women don't live alone and must help the society be clean and free from adultery as much as possible ( so that you don't come again and say I said it will totally elimiate adultery).

I never said that women "have to" wear it but that they "must" wear it...and they are forced to wear it.. .. Now you say they must "help" society.... again in your "society" neither rape or adultery has vanished as proof that the hijab works... True it does not work as temptation is from withiin not outside ...It was told to you before...MK...but ...

Last thing concerning Christianity, I know you are not honest with yourself, and putting Xianity aside is a clear evidence, that's up to you, but there are others who may read this thread

How is the fact that I do not want to discuss Christianity making me dishonest?? That sounds extremely manipulative as dishonesty has to do with someone who lies... and I was pretty upfront from the start... If you wish a "comparison" thread you are more than welcome to put it up yourself MK..

 

[Islam_mulia]

How come? ah...well along other "mandatory" practices... why this would be an excepiton...right? He even says to you how to wash your face before prayers.. I think Allah is a very "controlling" God... all around.

I've already told you the objective of wearing the hijab - it is to maintain the modesty of women. We do not question why this is the best for women because we believe God knows best. Once again, this may be the stark difference between a Muslim, and maybe, a Christian.

Well, at least we do know that the ruling on wearing a hijab has some intelligent reasons to it. Some of the teachings of the bible is purely obsolete and non-practical.

I cannot imagine how the True God would really care about things like these... Especially when he did not care how they go around in Paradise... You said they were "alone" in Paradise...or someone else did say that ....but God was there too....You think that God minded they were naked??? No . Shame came after man sinned and realized his nudeness, but again "BOTH" got clothed not ONLY the woman... So why God "changed" his mind when he saw your pro[phet??? eh??? it sounds too illogical to want to change "rules" then...

I do not remember writing anything about women naked in paradise and I shall not commend. Nonetheless, Philothei lacks the knowledge of Islam to know to understanding that we believe that the shame from nakedness came about after Prophet Adam ate from the forbidden tree. This has nothing to do with hijab but at least you know before you try to discuss with Muslims.

I am not afraid of discussion I am not willing to have you "defend" Islam by bringing in Christianity.. like defending my practices and beliefs bringing up "compairing" with Islam...It is not fair and yes it is tu quoque...This thread is not about compairing...

This is a forum and we discuss religion here. As much as you are interested in "understanding" Islam, I am more than willing to share how Islam agrees and disagrees with Christianity and other faith.

You felt cheated because you know very well that you will have difficulty defending your belief when you see that Muslims provide a more convincing presentation on why Islam is more reasonable than Christianity.

Come on... you could at least agree on this???

No choice though if the hubby or father demand she wears it...so where is the "choice" here?

I cannot remember 'telling' my wife or any of my sisters to wear the hijab. It is through their understanding of the rationale for putting on the hijab other than the choice that they have.

Yes, but mulsim men do instist on their women to wear it by force... And the immams are adamant about it.. How can a woman attend the temple without a head covering? If was allowed she could....but in practice she cannot...Your immams do not allow "uncovered" women to enter the temple for prayers... So your practice denies what you say.

The mosque is a sacred place for worship. As our standard requires Muslim women to cover their head, I would assume Muslim women should understand that they should wear the hijab.

We are a community that lives by rules. It is through this form of discipline that Muslims are able to function more effectively as a religous group compared to Christianity.

Again you have immams who do insitst on the haddiths that is enough "control" about the hijab... it is a practice that you abide.

If the Quran and hadith says women should cover their head, why shouldn't the imam preach the same?

I would agree with you as to the different practices... ONLY to disagree though that the Islamic practice of the head covering has as its practice the idea to "supress" women to their place and /or to treat them as unequal... Modesty in any other religions has allowed women their freedome to chose as there is not "law" that tells them what to wear, only "suggests" that they do.

You are trying to push your Christian ethics, if there is any, on the life and thinking of Muslims. Christianity is a dying faith in Europe and America - we can see that quite clearly. It does not work in many countries.

Islam still strives in Europe and many countries because we generally do not submit to the wishes of non-Muslims in what we should eat, live or wear.

Yes we are actually concerned esp. when they are told to hide one eye ONLY and go around with only one eye to see... The one I asked she said she "tolerates" it and she would be happy if she had a choice... ...
BTW another one the other day a lady almost fell down walking because she triped.. My heart went out to her.. . it was at the mall.

That is not wearing a hijab. You have brought up a very poor case. The hijab is not meant to restrict a woman's movement. Can you at least discuss with a more reasonable example?

Turkey has democracy and they should feel happy that the goven't cares for them and wants them to have freedom France is a westen country and the laws not only do not allow hijab but also tirban to be worn my Indian men same used to be in England... It was a practical law as tirbans cannot be worn by police officers who have to wear caps... There is a conflict... But see the Indian tirban was removed as Hindu religion does not have such restrictions... in place like Islam.

I dont see how wearing a hijab will destroy Turkey or France's democracy. Can you explain how?

It is very sad that of all the issues hijab is there to stay in ISlam and no one is logical enough to just say NO to this practice and haddith... The ones who do say no are looked upon as non-mulsim... as not modest etc. Governments esp. in Egypt they are percecuting the women who do not wear it.. Is that right? Why women should not have a say as to what they wear? And for what? Because men cannot control their passions?

1. The wearing of hijab has not brought any harm to any government or people. Why are you so blind to see that Muslim women generally do not disagree wearing hijab. If they feel they are good in that, who are you to question what they should or should not wear?

2. There is no national ruling that Egyptian women must wear a hijab. Please show me one ruling that says so.

3. The ruling on modesty applies to both men and women in Islam. Men are restricted on other things where women are not. Similarly, women have their roles and responsibilities different from men. Please dont compare Muslim values with western and decadent christian ethics.

Modesty is one thing hijab is not modesty. Some posters here did hit the nail as they said also that hijab is not modest it can be as alluring as anything else...

Obviuosly you have not been reading my posts.

 

[MK11]

STill men do not want to take responsibility of their actiosn and "blame" it on the women... Proof is that they women who "men" commit rape within the family kill their women for the shame... instead of dealing with their own passions... and shortcomings. That is typical muslim man reaction... it is always the woman's fault...even killing their daughter even it they "raped" her... What the hijab the problem there??? No ...But it was the woman's fault.

You mean honor killing? it has nothing to do with Islam, nowhere neither in the Quran nor in the Sunna does it tells us to do so. If you mean adultery law, it's against both men and women equally.

Those examples you bring have nothing to do with the hijab. There are lot of things that go unreported nowadays. The t.v. the internet etc. level out many of the societies nowadays. Adultery in the Islamic countries can also be a privete issue.

You are talking as if hijab is the prevailing wear in Islamic countries, this is not the case at all, most of the hijab weared is only a cover to hair, and the one who is completely veiled is mostly known to be religious, adultery in Islamic countries has many reasons, one of them is the temptation by unveiled women, also because men and women are opened on each other no segregation and this happens especially in universities and I have seen many adultery cases because of this, and I think this is most reason for adultery, and this is totally against Islam. For adultery to be a private issue, this is a clear evidence that it doesn't occur as it occurs in your countries, since people here try to hide as it is so shameful for them, but it is clear that this is not the case in your countries.

It is irrelevant since male prostitution is different that female... It is hard to track it down as female is usually easier...And what does it prove? that mulsim women do not seek male prostitutes because they wear the hijab... Any proof there?
No....
Women not "interested" in being raped???No clue what you say here. I would hope so.. How can this be? I would hope they are not "interested" actually... with or without hijab rapes take place in your coutnry as well everywhere...

Proof on what? Do you understand what I am talking about? I am talking about women having different sexual desire as men. Read what I said again, these are all proofs.

I never said that women "have to" wear it but that they "must" wear it...and they are forced to wear it.. .. Now you say they must "help" society.... again in your "society" neither rape or adultery has vanished as proof that the hijab works... True it does not work as temptation is from withiin not outside ...It was told to you before...MK...but ...

And I have answered this much before....Philothei.....but....

How is the fact that I do not want to discuss Christianity making me dishonest?? That sounds extremely manipulative as dishonesty has to do with someone who lies... and I was pretty upfront from the start... If you wish a "comparison" thread you are more than welcome to put it up yourself MK..

You are dishonest because you want to make people think Islam is false because it tells us to wear hijab, while it is in Christianity, and before you were defending Christianity, now you stopped to, which is a clear indication that you can't reply anymore. I don't see it deserves a new thread, as this thread can already accomodate it unless you have an extensive reply. But as I said in the beginning, I won't open a thread, then I find no one replying, and it vanishes within an hour. We are talking about the same subject, we don't need to open a new thread.

 

[MK11]

Again, I tell you, you are obviously unaware of many crimes against women in your country which are specific to women, not just 'sexual harassment'. I don't know your position as to education or class, only that you are quite young, perhaps somewhat sheltered, and perhaps not able to find out about such things easily. Crimes against women because they are women are a problem in many, if not most countries: the difference is that Egypt has a reputation for unequal treatment of women under the law, despite stating that laws are equal.

For me, I am a graduate engineer. As for these crimes, do you consider Egypt as a representative to Islamic law? This is not the case, as there are many violations to Islamic teachings there. But could I understand how does this do with Hijab?

Your arguments on the desireability of women staying in the home are exactly those of fundamentalist Christians. Economically, at no time and nowhere has this been possible for any but wealthy women, whose wealth is usually dependent on a husband's income. This does not even bring up the fact some women are not able to have children or do not wish to, or who are widowed, or husband has left them, or never marry at all. As for her coming home tired, do men have no hands to help, once they come home from work?

First of all, I didn't say that women are not allowed to work, they are allowed if the work matches with her nature as a woman, but on condition that this won't disturb the house or that she doesn't spend enough time with her children. Secondly, most of the families in Egypt depend on husband's income alone, and it's enough not necessary that woman is wealthy. What I mean is that keeping the house and raising the children up is the prior responsibility of women, if she could work while not disturbing her house, it's ok. If not, then she must look for her house. The man couldn't do everything, he may also come tired, and he may not have the influence on his children as his wife has. If he can, then it's ok, but if he can't, then a woman must look for her house.

You typically exaggerate about Western countries adultery, etc., while not even knowing how many men in your own country are adulterous, and also base your argument, I think, on the US.

Isn't this the case for most Western and Euopean countries? For example I have seen a report before telling that an Australian woman has 13 male partners in average, of course Australia is not Western, but it is nearly the same life style as Western countries. In my country, I see that the one of the main reasons is that there is no segregation between men and women, so relationships begin to appear, and you can see this a lot in universities, and nearly all adultery cases in university which I think they constitute most of the cases occur because of this, and this is what I have always been seeing.

I have no religion, my husband and I have been married eighteen years, there is no adultery. Adultery is not related to clothing choice, but to self control, which is learned. Here is a true story. I worked in childcare in Canada with a young Muslim man, married with children. All his coworkers were young women, he saw every day lots of beautiful young women dressed in western summer clothes, yet he was not 'tempted', because this is normal in our culture; he was used to it. Also, he loved his wife, and that is the real reason for not being adulterous. A man who really cares for his wife does not stray.

I agree with you that marriage and loving the wife or the husband is a main solution to adultery for many people, but not all people can marry, and not all people who marry can be pleased with their partners.

How so? You seem to believe that women are not very sexual, do not have desire in the same way as men.

I have already explained this, and I gave the examples of women not interested in rape and men not working as prostitutes.

You seem to think women should not have ambition beyond bearing children and looking after the home.

I have explained this more in this post.

A person can overcome all kinds of obstacles by practice, including the impediments of restrictive clothing, and people will take up practices for their own reasons, which is fine. The problem is when they are forced to out of fear of consequences instead of choice.

It is not a matter of fear that way, although it may be the case sometimes, but if the case was that some are veiled, others are not, so what have we done? The solution to the problem hasn't been well executed.

 

[MichaelNZ]

Turkey has democracy and they should feel happy that the goven't cares for them and wants them to have freedom France is a westen country and the laws not only do not allow hijab but also tirban to be worn my Indian men same used to be in England... It was a practical law as tirbans cannot be worn by police officers who have to wear caps... There is a conflict... But see the Indian tirban was removed as Hindu religion does not have such restrictions... in place like Islam.

I have never seen Hindu men wear turbans in real life, only pictures of Gaudiya Math and Swaminarayan Gurus who wear some sort of turban. It is the Sikhs who wear a turban. Sikhism is a blend of Hindu teachings on reincarnation and liberation, with Sufi Islamic teachings of God (they reject images and forms of God, etc). Sikh men are required to wear a turban as it is one of their religious observances.

Now, back on topic...

I live in Malaysia, a country with a majority Muslim population. All Malay people are required by law to be Muslims. I see Malay women walking around wearing a scarf but also wearing jeans. I've even seen Malay women with a scarf over their head but wearing a top with a low neckline revealing skin! However, many Malay women wear the traditional baju kurung, a knee-length blouse and skirt which is far more modest. I also see some Malay women who do not wear the scarf (Malay tudung) at all, although they usually wear a skirt or long pants which cover most of their body.

My (non-Muslim) Malaysian friend told me that many Muslim women in Malaysia wear the tudung out of social pressure, rather than because of religion. However, I think that the state of Kelantan, ruled by the fanatical Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, requires all Muslim women to wear tudung.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Now, back on topic...

I live in Malaysia, a country with a majority Muslim population. All Malay people are required by law to be Muslims.

I am a Javanese and I quite familiar with Malaysian politics. I am not sure there is actually a law that says a Malay 'must' be a Muslim.

I see Malay women walking around wearing a scarf but also wearing jeans. I've even seen Malay women with a scarf over their head but wearing a top with a low neckline revealing skin! However, many Malay women wear the traditional baju kurung, a knee-length blouse and skirt which is far more modest. I also see some Malay women who do not wear the scarf (Malay tudung) at all, although they usually wear a skirt or long pants which cover most of their body.

My (non-Muslim) Malaysian friend told me that many Muslim women in Malaysia wear the tudung out of social pressure, rather than because of religion. However, I think that the state of Kelantan, ruled by the fanatical Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, requires all Muslim women to wear tudung.

In some ways, you are right. It is possible that the Malay girls were required to wear the baju kurung and tudung when they were in schools and the tradition may be stretched to their casual and working lives. Personally, I do not like Malay women in short skirts with tudung... but then Malaysia Boleh!

PAS is an islamic party but to say they are 'fanatical' is like saying UMNO is 'westernised'. Is there really a law that says a Muslim woman must wear tudung in Kelantan? It is possible that the ruling is applied in the civil service but I have not heard of women being forced into wearing the tudung.

The case of Malaysia is an excellent example where Islam and Muslims are able to coexist with non-Muslims. Sure there are voices of grievances among the minorities (and that happens in almost all countries) but I do not see a nationwide discrimination of Muslims against non-Muslims. While there are currently 'difficulties' in BN, I am glad to see Malays, Chinese and Indians living together in harmony.

 

[Philothei]

the whole argument of the turban was about using the protective gear while driving motorbikes... sorry but I knew there was a "glitz" somewhere and that is why it was banned.... and thank you for letting us know that it is religious reasons they wear it.

Thank you for letting us know that Islam is not 'singled out" in Europe... as per their religious practices...



http://www.religion.info/english/articles/article_118.shtml

requires all Muslim women to wear tudung.

All Malay people are required by law to be Muslims.

Like in so many other places in the world... no surprice here

I am not sure there is actually a law that says a Malay 'must' be a Muslim.

proof please ... we can bring proof for the opposite ... I am sure somewhere you can find if that is the case if ....it-is-the-truth.


Now how come a minority example constitute the majority of women who do not have the luxury to wear just the tudung ???

IMO though in all truth jeans and all i would rather see women making their own choices... The more you restrict something the more people tend to want to do it more...as with any restriction laws. Athough if those indoctrinated in Islam stick to the spiritual value of dressing with modesty they should have no problem... as modesty is honoring one's body and respecting one's God coupled with their own free will to do so....


Extreme piety and for piety's sake alone is hypocritical and phony and is practiced out of necessity to obey one's master...fearing the human retribution as per the gov't rather than God.

 

[Naturalist_Atheist]

Sometimes I think we need to make some of the women around here wear hijabs. Heh...

 

[Philothei]

You wish.........lol.....

 

[dnihila]

(Command that says only women should be clean? Does not make any sense as to why.... ........)
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*Usually men keep their hair short but the natural way the woman should grow her hair is having a long hair and that's why she should wear a scarf. Men can shave their heads for a healthier look but woman can't. Men wear caps, hats, ....etc, to protect their hair and heads from the sun. Have a quick look at any religious man, you will see that he is wearing a head cover. Holy commands are not only applied for only its sacredness but for our life,too. Tell me Why men suffer from baldness more than women?
If this has nothing to do with protecting your hair and your body, then why religious men and woman wear head covers?

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???? What does the hijab has anything ................".... (?????)
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* Maybe if you are bald headed, you don't have to check your hair and restyle it. Or maybe when it's windy , you have to get into the mall with ( After the Tornado Look ) just to avoid styling your hair. It is a normal move to touch your hair with your hand. It is normal to rearrange your hair and to touch it with clean hands.
It is normal if I like to have a clean hair free from dust, bugs and fleas.
It is normal to protect my hair and scalp from the sun light. It is normal if I like to kepp the way I look decent and healthy. It is normal to try as much as I can to avoid seducing men, not only with clothes, with hair , with make up and with perfumes.
It is normal to see a housewife cleaning her house with a cover on her hair or maybe that's not healthy to the hair !!!?
You can say that you will leave your house with decent clothes to protect your body from being harmed but The woman's beauty is in her hair. That's what distinguishes a woman from the man ( Hair ). And beauty can't be completed without hair. And no matter how beautiful the woman is without her hair to complete the style , she won't look attractive and seductive. It is true that a beautiful woman with Hijab won't prevent her from being seductive but this goes back to the idea of the man with a strong faith or a weak faith. And this equalizing can't take part without men and women take part in it. It is a mutual job from both sides the woman to behave themselves and have a decent look and the men to protect their eyes from looking at what is not theirs.
Woman are not goods in supermarket shelves for everyone to touch and buy. What did the headcover do to religious people and what not wearing it did to people?
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(So...sculp disease...ha? How does this prevents ...................)
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*I believe in the image of Mary. I believe in the image of decent ladies. I believe in the image of immaculateness. I believe in chastity. I believe that my hair is mine to protect it the way I want. You can go and wash your hair in the ocean that will not make my hair damaged.
The Hijab is not only to be decent , it is to be healthy and respectful.
And when I touch my hair in an open area after touching everything what your words will do to me at that time? And why do I have to clean my hand after touching the train seats , the coffee tables , the doors, ...etc.
It will be like a person who is sick and disgust from everything he/she touches. And will make people have an idea about him/her that he/she can't stand them at all for feeling that they are dirty and their environment is dirty. It is impolite to act like that and save beauty to your husband because he is your own choice and he deserves the best from you that you belong to no one but him. You are not everybody's tool to watch and have relationship with.
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(proof please... According to your logic both men and women then should have been wearing hijabs... So... ......)
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You can have another look at the pictures above.
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(Most bacteria are not airborne.......)
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Then let the dogs sleep in your bed and don't ask me why do I have fleas.
You can gurantee what will happen in your house but you can't gaurantee what will happen outside your house. What circumstances you will get through and what weather condition you will be under. How clean the place you are going to?
And you can see that people in the industrial contries they cover their noses and mouths to prevent them from inhaling gases. That's true and that's a normal thing to do when you are in a place of unhealthy air, you will cover your mouth and your nose but Oxygen is healthy for you to inhale because in your nose you have what protect dust from getting into your lungs. And your lips are doing their job by keeping your mouth shut.
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(Are you part of that "something" ..........)
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Take the story of prophet Joseph ( peace be upon him), the second world most handsome man after Adam who used to cover his face for people not to be seduced by his beauty.
And the test he fell in infront of a beautiful married woman asked him to have a relationship but with his beauty and self confidence he said:" I FEAR The Creator."
Surah YUSUF=Joseph
23-"And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him. She closed the doors and said, "Come, you." He said, "[I seek] the refuge of Allah. Indeed, he is my master, who has made good my residence. Indeed, wrongdoers will not succeed."
24-"And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants."
This verse to show that even Joseph was the most beautiful man on Earth but he was not attracted to men. If any will say that he didn't have a forbidden relationship with her for being not interested in women. He was about to give up to the seduction but the Almighty saved him for being a chosen servant of the Creator.
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(Women are not things........)
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Then if you are not precious, what are you then?

I gave you an example of precious things that we can take and throw away and we don't we handle them with care. Then what about a living creature called woman? Is woman cheaper than a gift inside a paper box?
Is the vision of a woman who is naked on TV is the same vision of the woman who is decent?
They are different.
The thing is not about Hijab, it is a complete balance of justice, protection, respect,....etc.
Every woman is not cheap for sycos to run after them for the way they look. Give an abnormal man a choice to have a relationship with two women, one is decent and the other is without Hijab, with make up and tight Jeans. Which one he will choose?
Don't tell me he will choose the most beautiful. No
Because if the most beautiful is the one with Hijab this means that he need more time to convince her of that quick relationship. It means that he could be refused by her. But the one who says OK with the way she looks, he will have the relationship with her as long as the target is one.
People prefer to buy cheap stuff but they can't keep them forever, they will be quickly damaged, not of a high quality.
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(It is reducing your worth as a woman into ........)
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Women are fighting for their rights but they didn't give themselves the rights they already have. Why do women have to imitate the man to have her right. Why do I have to ask the man to give me my rights. Why is it about someone who owns everything?
Do I have to look like men to be called the strong woman who can win her rights?
Let me ask you a question:
Where is your spirit? Isn't it covered with your body to protect it?
Where is your heart? Isn't it covered with your chest to protect it?
Your eyes, your mouth...etc. Everything in your body is protected with something you can see. Do people have to walk naked on streets to prove that they have rights? That they have spirits, wit and personality.
Another question:
Do you take a woman with micro skirts seriously or the woman with decent clothes?
What you wear is what you are. It is your way of thinking, your wit, your personality. We are all passangers and this life is a station to get into the train into somewhere we don't know about. If you are not ready for that journey then you will be lost by getting into the wrong train and spend more time to go back and choose the right train to get into.
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(Why women cannot be seductive in a hijab?............)
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Beacuse wearing Hijab in a place where women don't wear it then those women will look strange and that's what attracts the attention to them.
If a man look at a woman and show how attracted he is to her , this means that he is thinking of what's after knowing her and talking to her.
Some men get attracted to some woman for the love of change and trying a new taste and if this man saw your complete beauty, he will chase after you tell he get what he wants from you and then he will look for another taste. That's what make marriages don't last for a long time. It is the lack of faith.
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(Heavy make up? I know about heavy make ................)__________________
That's true. An old lady can be raped by a sick young man. But if we go back to the reasons why this man raped that particular woman. Seduction will show up. Whether he saw an undecent woman on TV, in the street or at work. The man who is not sick will have the relationship with the woman in steps: dating, kissing, hugging then having illegal sex because he planned his rape.
The sick man doesn't have a plan to follow but he goes immediately into the last step which is rape.
And that's why marriage should be the only relationship between the man and the woman.

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(Why do you say that? if you love someone and he loves you too.................)
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Nothing more lustful than animals that jump from one into another. But with Holy commands, wit and respect a healthy society can be built.
If you love with your eyes, then you will get nothing more than an eye delight. If you love with your soul, you will find a soul delight and if you love with your heart, your heart will be delighted but if you love with your body, your body will be delighted but with blind eyes, lost soul and a broken heart.
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(Yes! and how this has to do with you? ..............)
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What price do you pay if you are raped? What price do you pay if you get hurt? What price do you pay if get pregnant by your boyfriend? What price do you pay if you get a disease?
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(The understanding is that the women in islam ............)..

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The only rules should be applied are the perfect rules of the Creator, the One who created us and the One who knows the best for us.
The One who knows what's behind the high mountain to tell you about instead of climbing the mountain to know what's behind.


( I am sorry for shortening your words because I needed space to write mine) Please don't take it as an offense but characters should not be more than 15000.

 

[Philothei]

using head covering in worship has anything to do with hijab"??? and using it in everyday life? The most your post did was spamming the thread...dnihilla...


Your pics show .... that men use covering in religious practices....how does this relates to women in Islam using hijab in all aspects of their life??? no connection and it is also off topic.

 

[Islam_mulia]

All Malay people are required by law to be Muslims.

I am not sure there is actually a law that says a Malay 'must' be a Muslim.

proof please ... we can bring proof for the opposite ... I am sure somewhere you can find if that is the case if ....it-is-the-truth.

I was not the one pushing the point. I was merely asking if there was indeed a law. It shoudl be the onus of the person who made the claim to come up with the evidence. It is of no wonder that sometimes I see that you have difficulty coming up with intelligent points.

Now how come a minority example constitute the majority of women who do not have the luxury to wear just the tudung ???

IMO though in all truth jeans and all i would rather see women making their own choices... The more you restrict something the more people tend to want to do it more...as with any restriction laws. Athough if those indoctrinated in Islam stick to the spiritual value of dressing with modesty they should have no problem... as modesty is honoring one's body and respecting one's God coupled with their own free will to do so....


Extreme piety and for piety's sake alone is hypocritical and phony and is practiced out of necessity to obey one's master...fearing the human retribution as per the gov't rather than God.

We have discussed the merits of wearing the hijab (and this has stretched quite over a few pages). I would therefore like you to clearly tell us your views on the following:

1. If Muslim women do wear the hijab because they feel happy to wear the hijab as they feel it keeps their modesty, do you, Philothei find that they were making a mistake, that it was morally wrong?

2. Are you saying that wearing a hijab is wrong because of the teachings of your Christian faith or because of your western ideals? If you think wearing a hijab is morally wrong, was that a teaching of the bible or the christian fathers... or are you now slanting towards the 'modernist' view which also happen to look down on some christian beliefs and teachings. Pls let us know.

3. Do you think women wearing the hijab will bring down a government? You are not clear when you reply regarding the case in Turkey and France, but I think it would be fair if we hear from you.

Looking forward to hear from you.

 

[MichaelNZ]

I am a Javanese and I quite familiar with Malaysian politics. I am not sure there is actually a law that says a Malay 'must' be a Muslim.

Actually, there is. (I'll post the Malay for Islam_mulia as well)

Artikel 160 Perlembagaan Malaysia:
"Orang Melayu" ertinya seseorang yang menganuti agama Islam, lazim bercakap bahasa Melayu, menurut adat Melayu dan—
(a) yang lahir sebelum Hari Merdeka di Persekutuan atau Singapura atau yang lahir sebelum Hari Merdeka dan ibu atau bapanya telah lahir di Persekutuan atau di Singapura, atau yang pada Hari Merdeka berdomisil di Persekutuan atau di Singapura; atau (b) ialah zuriat seseorang yang sedemikian;

Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia:


"Malay" means a person who professes the religion of Islam, habitually speaks the Malay language, conforms to Malay custom and -

• (a) was before Merdeka Day born in the Federation or in Singapore or born of parents one of whom was born in the Federation or in Singapore, or is on that day domiciled in the Federation or in Singapore; or
• (b) is the issue of such a person;

This law has caused a lot of problems for Malays who wish to leave Islam. Lina Joy, a Malay convert to Christianity, has been denied the right to have the word "Islam" removed from her identity card because the Shari'ah courts do not grant her the right to leave Islam, being a Malay.

In some ways, you are right. It is possible that the Malay girls were required to wear the baju kurung and tudung when they were in schools and the tradition may be stretched to their casual and working lives. Personally, I do not like Malay women in short skirts with tudung... but then Malaysia Boleh!

I've never seen a Malay woman in short skirt with tudung. Most of them at least wear a long skirt or pants. As far as I know in Selangor or Kuala Lumpur there is no law requiring Islamic modesty for Muslims (the university I study at does have a dress code which requires long pants/skirt on women, though).

PAS is an islamic party but to say they are 'fanatical' is like saying UMNO is 'westernised'.

If PAS got into power and ruled the entire country, they would make Shari'ah law applicable to every Malaysian (at the moment it only applies to Muslims) and punish apostasy from Islam by death. My wife and I agree that neither of us would want to live in a PAS-run Malaysia.

Is there really a law that says a Muslim woman must wear tudung in Kelantan? It is possible that the ruling is applied in the civil service but I have not heard of women being forced into wearing the tudung.

I am not sure of this myself. I simply remember my wife telling me this.

The case of Malaysia is an excellent example where Islam and Muslims are able to coexist with non-Muslims. Sure there are voices of grievances among the minorities (and that happens in almost all countries) but I do not see a nationwide discrimination of Muslims against non-Muslims. While there are currently 'difficulties' in BN, I am glad to see Malays, Chinese and Indians living together in harmony.

Yes, you are right to a certain extent. Most of the time there is harmony. I know several Malays and they are very nice people. However, the Malays get special "bumiputera privileges", which, for example, entitle them to a 7% discount on some house prices. Chinese and Indians who convert to Islam do not receive such privileges. To oppose or question these privileges is a crime.

There is still an emphasis on "Ketuanan Melayu" (Malay Supremacy, the belief that the Malays are the masters of Malaysia). In the 1960s, Lee Kuan Yew, the leader of the People's Action Party, wanted a "Malaysian Malaysia" instead of the implied "Malay Malaysia". The result? Lee's state, Singapore, was kicked out of the Malaysian Federation and became a separate nation.

 

[Naturalist_Atheist]

Seems like women aren't worth much over there.

 

[Philothei]

We have discussed the merits of wearing the hijab (and this has stretched quite over a few pages). I would therefore like you to clearly tell us your views on the following:

1. If Muslim women do wear the hijab because they feel happy to wear the hijab as they feel it keeps their modesty, do you, Philothei find that they were making a mistake, that it was morally wrong?

Women are not responsible for the wrong... as it is men who decide what women wear... and in this case they pay the price for "scandalizing" the males. So men are morally wrong to insist on that practice that demands women to be objectified to that practice. That is what is morally wrong.
Women first off do not "decide" to wear it or not... That is my problem... If they had a say that would be a different story.

Proof to that is that their Immam i.e. told them to show only one eye they have to obey him.... Sure spiritual abuses can take place when blind obedience is required but this leaves women totally unprotected as far as "having a say" in the situation....Because I cannot see how women voluntarily want to walk around with ONE EYE only trying to go shoping and so on....That practice also will unable them to drive a car and so forth...
2

. Are you saying that wearing a hijab is wrong because of the teachings of your Christian faith or because of your western ideals? If you think wearing a hijab is morally wrong, was that a teaching of the bible or the christian fathers... or are you now slanting towards the 'modernist' view which also happen to look down on some christian beliefs and teachings. Pls let us know.

I never ever mentioned Christinity as it is not the topic. period.

3. Do you think women wearing the hijab will bring down a government? You are not clear when you reply regarding the case in Turkey and France, but I think it would be fair if we hear from you.

??? Bring down the Government ??? No, I said women in some countries are required to wear as it is the law of the land and it is unfair. I was very clear again Turkey and France have outlawed the use of hijab as secular countries.
Go back to my post.

 

[anatolian]

What amazes me is how, no matter how modest the Moslem woman, there always seems to be someone who says she is not Islamic enough..

It's not what people say but what Allah says is important..Just to make that detail and whole thread through that detail clear..

 

[anatolian]

STill men do not want to take responsibility of their actiosn and "blame" it on the women... Proof is that they women who "men" commit rape within the family kill their women for the shame... instead of dealing with their own passions... and shortcomings. That is typical muslim man reaction...

Well,ehmm that's not me, really

 

[dnihila]

using head covering in worship has anything to do with hijab"??? and using it in everyday life? The most your post did was spamming the thread...dnihilla...


Your pics show .... that men use covering in religious practices....how does this relates to women in Islam using hijab in all aspects of their life??? no connection and it is also off topic.

I guess we have to ask Mary why she wears Headscarf on her head in every picture and image of her? Why nuns do that,too?
I love Mary and I am proud of nuns who are decent and sacrificed their joy and happiness for the Creator and the real eternal happiness.
If you are a nun, at that time I might answer your questions.
Because I know that these words won't come from religious nuns who knew what happiness is.
Religion is not what you desire to have, it is to give up what you love for the sake of the Creator.
Do you think that Muslim ladies, nuns, religious Jewish ladies are not normal women who wants to have fun in their life and they want to enjoy themselves in this life?
They are like you and like any other woman who loves the pleasures of this life but they sold the temporary for the eternal.
What will happen to you if you wear Hijab?
What harm you will cause to others?
It is you the one who is wearing it. It is you the one who looks decent.
I don't go to your house and ask you to wear what I want. You choose to wear whatever you want because it is your personality not mine.
When you are a Christian asking about an Islamic practice like Hijab then your question should be out of curiosity not disrespect.
But if you are a Muslim who is trying to convence herself of not wearing Hijab , the case is different.
You are not a Muslims and you are asking about Islamic practice with a superior language. And you mentioned in the beginning that you will not allow us as Muslims to talk about the viel.
We could simply say, it is non of your buisness as long as this forum is for non-Christians but this is not our nature. We love to respect people as long as this respect is mutual.
You can present your point of view without humilating the other party.
I don't criticise you when you wear the cross, the sign of death to Jesus.
While you try hard to make us inferior to you.
I could of ignore your comments but because I know that there are millions or billions of good Jews, Christians and Muslims are reading and because I know that above them all the Creator is witnessing and His angels, too. And every word I say , He will ask me about.
I wish that you believe in the freedom of choice.

 

[dnihila]

Seems like women aren't worth much over there.

1.whenever men stop dating girls for the sake of sex I might say that girls are no more cheap on Earth.
2. Whenever men stop leaving girls for the sake of the beauty of another, I might say that girls are more expensive on Earth.
3. Whenever men stop raping girls around the world, I might say that girls are more precious on Earth.
4. Whenever men stop going outside the house to dirty places, I might say that they deserve a wife to care for them.
5. Whenever men stop looking at women as a tool of enjoyment, I might say that they are back to their senses.
Women around the world suffer from this superior look that men have toward them. No matter how civilized men are, they can't stand a clever woman and they can't look at any woman with respect but with passion.
Their Brains are switched upside down. It is like a curse made upon them.
And it is not only the men to blame, it is the women who made themselves cheap and lousy by depending on the nutrition of body instead of soul.
Then don't ask us why we wear Hijab. Whenever men reach the highest point of chastity, we might think about taking off the Hijab.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Women are not responsible for the wrong... as it is men who decide what women wear... and in this case they pay the price for "scandalizing" the males. So men are morally wrong to insist on that practice that demands women to be objectified to that practice. That is what is morally wrong.

Women first off do not "decide" to wear it or not... That is my problem... If they had a say that would be a different story.[/quote]
If you ask any of the Muslim women in this forum, I can bet most, if not all of them, will tell you they wear the hijab willingly. What is your problem then?

Proof to that is that their Immam i.e. told them to show only one eye they have to obey him.... Sure spiritual abuses can take place when blind obedience is required but this leaves women totally unprotected as far as "having a say" in the situation....Because I cannot see how women voluntarily want to walk around with ONE EYE only trying to go shoping and so on....That practice also will unable them to drive a car and so forth...

The hijab is not to be worn so that women can see with only one eye. That is a poor description coming from you.

I never ever mentioned Christinity as it is not the topic. period.

Only because there is NOTHING in Christianity that says wearing the hijab is morally wrong. A westernised or a 'modernist' view may think that way, and these views are just as willing to condemn Christian ethics as much as they are willing to look down on anything 'Islamic'.

??? Bring down the Government ??? No, I said women in some countries are required to wear as it is the law of the land and it is unfair. I was very clear again Turkey and France have outlawed the use of hijab as secular countries.
Go back to my post.

I asked you before where in Egypt was there such a law that says a woman must put on the hijab? You did not reply.

Why do you think it is offensive for women to wear hijab in Turkey and France? I do not think it is a 'law' to wear the hijab even in those countries, except in universities and probably those working in the civil service, maybe. Can you pls justify your claim that Turkey and Frnace has OUTLAWED the use of hijab?