Why hijab?

[MK11]

So is the contention that men are so weak-willed that they cannot control their own bodies and minds, therefore women must be prevented from many activities they could otherwise do as easily or better than many men? Women in Islam, then, must be altogether superior to the men, since they are not so swayed by the uncovered faces of men, and are gracious enough to suffer discomfort and discrimination to protect the weak wills of men.

Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's, woman's desire has much more to do with love. Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?

 

[MK11]

.

1. veiling does not and has not 'lower" adultery or rape all these centuries why would it happen now? do not see that.
2. Women who are not veiled can be a modest... You do not need hijab to do that for a woman
3. Actions? you mean as far as who is more religious a woman with or without hijab? Your call to answer like I said I am asking for information here... If you believe that "appearance" is not important then why wear the hijab? or is it a "show" or piety? just a token?

1. Well, according to what I see, it does, and that's why it adultery and rape is more present in your society than ours, yes it happens in our society but at much less rates than yours.
2. What is your definition for modesty? What are the limits for a woman to wear?
3. Did you really read what I said? I explicitly said that BOTH are important.

Your hadiths do not claim that women are "unequal" to men...where is that in your haddiths? Actually the opposite is stated...

So you are now defending gender equality from what Islam says? Btw, you are the one who is going offtopic now.

But if that problem of "adultery' was ONLY because the women are unveiled then you should not have any 'adultery' in your lands and.... unfortunately it still takes place...

And where did I say it doesn't happen in my land? Of course it happens, but not that notoriously as present at yours. Where did you find me saying that it prevents adultery?

I am confused you said before that it a sin. she reconciles on her own no need for priest... just to go through this... fast.. Okay so far.. Then is she decides not to wear the veil any more ....Her free will is taken away ...she is a slave to men either her father or her husband and she "has" to even obey the governement to what she wears????

There must be general rules to protect the society, she is not living alone. Free will doesn't mean you harm others, otherwise most disciplinary actions against crimes or violations should be cancelled.

These opinions are opinions of Christians who lived in that era. I do trust the canon law and the Bible and the decisions of the councils.

Did they say that these were just opinions for their era? It seems to be much more than that:
Thou therefore that art a Christian, (p. 9) do not imitate such women; but if thou wouldst be a faithful woman, please thy husband only. And when thou walkest in the street, cover thy head with thy robe, that by reason of thy veil thy great beauty may be hidden. And adorn not thy natural face; but walk with downcast looks, being veiled.
http://www.bombaxo.com/didascalia.html

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by MK11

Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's,

Maybe that is the way that you see it, but it isn't so. Beauty is not just an outward physical thing. Men and women see each other differently.

woman's desire has much more to do with love.

Really? Does that mean that men don't have love and desire too?

Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?

The reason that women don't generally rape men is because of other issues such as cultural training, cultural stigmas, the physical strength of men vs women, as well as physiological differences between men and women. You will see more women rape guys and more men prostitute once a culture comes along that teaches that they should do it and that it is morally OK to do it. A lot of this has to do with conditioning. One good example of this is the increasing acceptance of homosexuality. People now grow up at earlier ages believing that the practice is OK and they are more influenced to practice it themselves if they have no good moral guide. As soon as women reach the point that men no longer seem to be a physical threat to them, one can expect that women will become more aggressive in sexual perversions towards men. When men become conditioned to see women as the authorities in societies, one should expect to see more female crimes against males, for example. We should expect women's and men's behaviors to change with changing societal conditions.

 

[Philothei]

Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's, woman's desire has much more to do with love. Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?

that is totally bogus....lol... Women do not have sexual drive? you set different standards... No, women can be tempted as much as men can sorry... What? women only go for a man if they are in love while man do not? women can get as tempted as men can ....Though you want women to cover themselves for men's sake...that proves that

-women are not in control of their own bodies
-women are used as objects to be "owned" by man either their father or their husband, who decides for them including the way they dress.

women have to cover themselves so that men cannot be tempted ... sounds sane to you?

That would mean that women "pay" the price for men's lustful desires, as they are the one's covering themselves. Leaving men not to accept any responsibility of their actions thus "blaming" women for their desires and actions if provoked....


A woman cannot "rape" but can defenately seduce a guy...

Sure there are male prostitutes. Also i have seen female prostitutes in mulsim countries and how they are treated .... But they do wear hijab and all... they are still tempting to males .. ...they do not last long as fundamentalist groups kills them...

 

[Secundulus]

This thread had moved into the twighlight zone where we have an Egyptian man lecturing us on the superiority of women's treatment in the Middle East. Hijab or no Hijab, women are treated like second class harlots in Egypt. So much for the moral strength of Islam!

Egypt voices: Sexual harassment


Seven Egyptian women talk about their experience of sexual harassment on the streets of Cairo. It is an increasingly common problem, with a recent survey suggesting more than four out of five women have been sexually harassed, while nearly two-thirds of men admitted assaulting women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7593765.stm#posy

 

[MK11]

Maybe that is the way that you see it, but it isn't so. Beauty is not just an outward physical thing. Men and women see each other differently.

Maybe they see each other differently, but it's clear that temptation of a woman is not just physical appearance of a man, it has to do more with his words, his personality, appearance may help but it is not everything, while a man can be tempted by woman's beauty only.

Really? Does that mean that men don't have love and desire too?

First of all, I didn't say that women have sexual desires, all what I saying is that she is affected by her love more than just the appearance to the man. In case of a man, of course he has love, but he is more affected by sexual desire, and easier to be tempted by just the beauty of a woman.

The reason that women don't generally rape men is because of other issues such as cultural training, cultural stigmas, the physical strength of men vs women, as well as physiological differences between men and women.

Exactly, that's what I wanted to reach, there are physiological differences between men and women, and on that basis, there is a differentiation in the laws concerning the 2 genders according to these differences. As for rape, do you think that when a woman gets raped, she is interested or having a sexual desire? Of course not, because she is forced to do so with a man whom she doesn't love, and for the rapist, of course it is not a matter of love, it is only a matter of fulfilling his desire.

You will see more women rape guys and more men prostitute once a culture comes along that teaches that they should do it and that it is morally OK to do it.

You are talking as if rape is ok in Western society nowadays.

As soon as women reach the point that men no longer seem to be a physical threat to them, one can expect that women will become more aggressive in sexual perversions towards men.

Sorry, what do you mean by women not seeing men as a physical threat? Women are always weaker than men, how could they attack a man? And if they could, how could she has a sexual intercourse with him forcibly? Man is the one who has intercourse with a woman not the opposite.

When men become conditioned to see women as the authorities in societies, one should expect to see more female crimes against males, for example.

Again, how come? Men are stronger than women by nature, how come that a day the opposite will happen, may be men will be pregnant at that time.

 

[MK11]

that is totally bogus....lol... Women do not have sexual drive? you set different standards... No, women can be tempted as much as men can sorry... What? women only go for a man if they are in love while man do not? women can get as tempted as men can ....Though you want women to cover themselves for men's sake...that proves that

As usual, you are interpolating my words, I never said that women don't have sexual desires, but it has to do with love more than just desire, since it is not only appearance that tempts the woman, it's man character and words as well, and this may affect her more than appearance. While in case of a man, it can be only woman's beauty that tempts man. So of course women are not tempted as much as men, when you find women tempted when being raped, you may have a point.

-women are not in control of their own bodies

How so?

-women are used as objects to be "owned" by man either their father or their husband, who decides for them including the way they dress.

It is not the case that they are objects owned by men, it is an order from God, for example if a woman wears a hijab, and her father or husband wants to prevent her, she shouldn't obey him, because Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him) ordered us not to obey a creature when ordering us to disobey the Creator.

women have to cover themselves so that men cannot be tempted ... sounds sane to you?

That would mean that women "pay" the price for men's lustful desires, as they are the one's covering themselves. Leaving men not to accept any responsibility of their actions thus "blaming" women for their desires and actions if provoked....

Again, thi is a clear interpolation to my words, I CLEARLY said before it is not just the responsibility of women, it is also the responsibility of the man, and if he even lookd at her, he will be sinned the same as she will be sinned.

A woman cannot "rape" but can defenately seduce a guy...

Rape is different than seducing, the raped woman is not interested in being raped, neither the rapist does, while seduced man is driven and tempted by the woman, and again it has to do more with the character of a man than just his appearance, so it's much more easy for a woman to resist temptation by just appearance than man. Tell me, if the case was that temptation for a woman is the same as a man, why didn't the didascalia and Tertullian order men to veil?

BTW, you say it was something special with their era? Look at what Tertullian says:
Having already undergone the trouble peculiar to my opinion, I will show in Latin also that it behoves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning-point of their age: that this observance is exacted by truth, on which no one can impose prescription—no space of times, no influence of persons, no privilege of regions. For these, for the most part, are the sources whence, from some ignorance or simplicity, custom finds its beginning; and then it is successionally confirmed into an usage, and thus is maintained in opposition to truth.

Notice also that he was talking only about virgins, putting the case that for married women, there is no question about her being veiled.

Sure there are male prostitutes.

Really? And where are they? And women are those who come to them and give them money for prostitution?

Also i have seen female prostitutes in mulsim countries and how they are treated .... But they do wear hijab and all... they are still tempting to males .. ...they do not last long as fundamentalist groups kills them...

And where are these Muslim countries? Prostitution is forbidden in all cases in Islam, whether she wears hijab or not, she is the one who seduces the man for money. And again these actions have nothing to do with Islam. I clearly said it is not only appearance which judges whether woman is good or not, but also her acts. And I actually don't recognize these Muslim fundamentalist groups.

 

[MK11]

This thread had moved into the twighlight zone where we have an Egyptian man lecturing us on the superiority of women's treatment in the Middle East. Hijab or no Hijab, women are treated like second class harlots in Egypt. So much for the moral strength of Islam!

Another post proves you are a bigot, where did Islam condone sexual harrassment? Nay I remind you of the notorious scandals of your priests? Do they represent Christianity? Actually if you judged religions through the actions of their people, you will be the loser, since Christians have been superiors in massacres, rape, adultery , homosexuality and all crimes than Muslims, but neither actions represent both religions, your hatred to Islam makes you think that primitive way. Grow up guy, you are already 49.

 

[NegativeCool]

Originally Posted by Philothei

Also i have seen female prostitutes in mulsim countries and how they are treated .... But they do wear hijab and all... they are still tempting to males .. ...they do not last long as fundamentalist groups kills them...
​

And where are these Muslim countries? Prostitution is forbidden in all cases in Islam, whether she wears hijab or not, she is the one who seduces the man for money. And again these actions have nothing to do with Islam. I clearly said it is not only appearance which judges whether woman is good or not, but also her acts. And I actually don't recognize these Muslim fundamentalist groups.

Iran for one. "Temporary marriages" between a man and a prostitute might make make it "legal" but it is still prostitution.

 

[Secundulus]

Another post proves you are a bigot, where did Islam condone sexual harrassment? Nay I remind you of the notorious scandals of your priests? Do they represent Christianity? Actually if you judged religions through the actions of their people, you will be the loser, since Christians have been superiors in massacres, rape, adultery , homosexuality and all crimes than Muslims, but neither actions represent both religions, your hatred to Islam makes you think that primitive way. Grow up guy, you are already 49.

Then stop with your hollow and asinine claims of the superiority of Islamic culture unless you can actually provide an example in real life.

 

[Catherineanne]

Because they know that they are dignified and that their body is not a show to all people other than their husbands.

Do Moslem women put on dignity with a hijab?

As far as I am aware, men and women who have dignity have it at all times, and do not ever put it off, whatever they wear.

Maybe Moslems are different.

Btw, what do you think a Christian girl could wear on the beach, are there any limit for her?

Limit before what happens, exactly?

And how could a priest baptize a Christian girl?

My daughter was baptised at six months old. What impropriety are you imagining happened to her at that age? The priest held her in his arms, poured water on her forehead, and made the sign of the cross on her with water and oil. Meanwhile, I, her dad and her godparents stood around, in a church full of people.

It is not clothes that make a woman modest. If she is immodest, she can wear full hijab, and remain immodest. And if she is modest, she can wear what she likes, when she likes, and remain modest.

And if the men around her sin, in their hearts, that is their sin, not hers.

 

[Catherineanne]

Usually the case in our societies is that men even if not so religious look at veiled women much more modestly than those who are not completely veiled, and this is not only a matter of religion, but a moral matter also. They may look at an unveiled woman, or may even deceive her, but when it comes to a veiled woman, his view towards her is much more respectful.

This is not true. A veiled woman is erotic to a Moslem man, and he is more likely to find her mysterious, inviting and attractive. And the Moslem women know it, which is why they wear, far more often than not, provocative eye make up and shoes that can only be described as extremely immodest.

I know this because I went to a Moslem wedding, with my 12 year old daughter, who wore traditional clothing at the bride's request. At one point, her uncle (the groom) took her veil and covered her face with it, apart from her eyes, in front of a whole table full of his new male relations. They all made audible sounds of approval and admiration, which had nothing to do with respect or piety, I can tell you. At which point I pulled the veil away from her face, because it was provoking a response which I, as her mother, found to be inappropriate towards a child. That made it clear to me that the veil is about eroticising, not about modesty.

Modesty is about the heart, not about eroticising the whole female form, to turn on Moslem men. Make no mistake, that is what is happening, and it has nothing to do with modesty on either side. Which is why Moslem women are being attacked, whether veiled or not, given half a chance.

I far prefer a society where I am free to wear what I want, and also free to walk down the street without being regarded as an erotic object.

So if a woman goes out unveiled, her father or her elder brother or her husband should prevent her, if they didn't the government should.

Morality which is imposed from the outside is not morality. It is subjugation.

 

[Philothei]

As usual, you are interpolating my words, I never said that women don't have sexual desires, but it has to do with love more than just desire, since it is not only appearance that tempts the woman, it's man character and words as well, and this may affect her more than appearance. While in case of a man, it can be only woman's beauty that tempts man. So of course women are not tempted as much as men, when you find women tempted when being raped, you may have a point.

So....a man is at an animal level that cannot controll his instinct while a woman is a human being with feelings....News for you? Man and woman have both feelings and they are moved to love by them. YOU are making the dinstinction by "not allowing" the woman to be herself ...and blame her for man's inability to "cope" with his lust...

How so?

They are not "allowed" to dress as they please. How is this freedom? It is one thing to 'teach" modesty and another to "imposs" it... Why Islam feels that they have to "tell their women" how to dress? How is it the women's problem if men cannot handle themselves? Would it be better to teach men to be more modest in their lustful thoughts and actions?

It is not the case that they are objects owned by men, it is an order from God, for example if a woman wears a hijab, and her father or husband wants to prevent her, she shouldn't obey him, because Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him) ordered us not to obey a creature when ordering us to disobey the Creator.

For the purpose of man's exploitation of women though because why God would want such an order? Was Eve created to by Adam's helper and to walk side by side with him created from his side???

That does not agree with God's creating order.When God told Adam to be in charge of creation did not mean to "enslave" his helper. So was God giving double messages... Because if hijab is from God why He did not "dress" Eve but they were BOTH naked in the Paradise? And then when they were ousted they were "both" clothed???? that would mean God did not "dress" Eve more than Adam... never mind what your prophet said...

Again, thi is a clear interpolation to my words, I CLEARLY said before it is not just the responsibility of women, it is also the responsibility of the man, and if he even lookd at her, he will be sinned the same as she will be sinned.

There is no interpolation I go with your thoughts here....According to hijab law ....men are excussed for their lustful ways.

Rape is different than seducing, the raped woman is not interested in being raped, neither the rapist does, while seduced man is driven and tempted by the woman, and again it has to do more with the character of a man than just his appearance, so it's much more easy for a woman to resist temptation by just appearance than man. Tell me, if the case was that temptation for a woman is the same as a man, why didn't the didascalia and Tertullian order men to veil?

It is not easier for woman.... and by bringing in he woman it does not justify the use of hijab in women... You treat women as a prisoner.... cursed to wear a full dress looking at the world out there... How would you like to wear a head to toe dress with very limited vision of the world??? Would you really and truly feel blessed? I do not think so...

BTW, you say it was something special with their era? Look at what Tertullian says:
Having already undergone the trouble peculiar to my opinion, I will show in Latin also that it behoves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning-point of their age: that this observance is exacted by truth, on which no one can impose prescription—no space of times, no influence of persons, no privilege of regions. For these, for the most part, are the sources whence, from some ignorance or simplicity, custom finds its beginning; and then it is successionally confirmed into an usage, and thus is maintained in opposition to truth.

Notice also that he was talking only about virgins, putting the case that for married women, there is no question about her being veiled.

We are not discussing Chritianity here...

Really? And where are they? And women are those who come to them and give them money for prostitution?

irrelevant.

And where are these Muslim countries? Prostitution is forbidden in all cases in Islam, whether she wears hijab or not, she is the one who seduces the man for money. And again these actions have nothing to do with Islam. I clearly said it is not only appearance which judges whether woman is good or not, but also her acts. And I actually don't recognize these Muslim fundamentalist groups.

trully laughable..... your answer is that ....the prostitution is irrelevant to Islam but you are eager to point it in the west as Christian related and blame it on the hijab...lol...... Your sharia laws do not work??? what is the problem? Hijab does not work ? You said earlier that is does... show us then how it eliminates prostitution? Singling out of these groups does not prove that Islam's haddith on the hijab proves to make the society better.


So far nothing you have said has me convienced that the hijab theologically (that you did not even expound on) or socially has any value other than to enslave women to men and their wills... in the hope that they might commit adultery (truly trusting your women here too for sure)....and to prevent men from their lustful desires...

 

[Bombila]

How insane, violent, and craven must ultra religious men become in their hatred of women before someone cries 'enough!'?

"...In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste. They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse, and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet.
In recent weeks, self-styled "modesty patrols" have been accused of breaking into the apartment of a Jerusalem woman and beating her for allegedly consorting with men...."

There is more to this story:

http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/world/2008/10/04/D93JN84O0_ml_israel_enforcing_modesty/index.html

"A Muslim cleric in Saudi Arabia has called on women to wear a full veil, or niqab, that reveals only one eye.
Sheikh Muhammad al-Habadan said showing both eyes encouraged women to use eye make-up to look seductive.
The question of how much of her face a woman should cover is a controversial topic in many Muslim societies.
The niqab is more common in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, but women in much of the Muslim Middle East wear a headscarf which covers only their hair.
Sheikh Habadan, an ultra-conservative cleric who is said to have wide influence among religious Saudis, was answering questions on the Muslim satellite channel al-Majd."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7651231.stm

I have a proposal for any men of Islam or Judaism or Christianity who want women to be made invisible. If you are so weak as to be carnally excited beyond control by the sight of an ordinary woman, then stay indoors, off the streets, away from any place where women might be expected to walk. Work from home, or if you are married, live on your wife's earnings. If you must go out, wear special glasses with blinders on the sides in order to prevent your peripherally noticing a woman, and with very dark, shape distorting lenses, blacked out at the top so you can't accidentally view a woman at a distance. Keep your head down at all times. If you must do business with a woman, stare at your own feet the whole time while you are speaking with her.

Pursuing this strategy, the inconvenience of your absence of willpower will be placed squarely where it belongs - on your shoulders. There will no longer be a need to harass, belittle and beat women for the crime of being seen to be women.

 

[Bombila]

DP, sorry

 

[Erfan777]

It seems Islam blames mostly on women because of the male's uncontrollable lust and other impure sexual thoughts. In Islam it says, Muhammad looked upon a women and thought of her as devil, so he returned home and took one of his wife in bed. So it shows that Muhammad blamed the women for being devilish because of his lust towards her. In Islam it also says, women are to blame for man's impure thoughts (lust) and women will be the majority in hell.Muhammed said, a country ruled by a woman will never succeed.

This piece of Hadith shows how Muhammad viewed about married women.
Bukhari:V4B52N211 "I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, 'Apostle, I am a bridegroom.' He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, 'A matron.' He said, 'Why not a virgin who would have played with you? Then you could have played with her.' 'Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.'"

Islam says women should be virgin until marriage but seems to be silent on male's virginity; as in Islam it is permitted for male to have sex with concubines/female slaves, even if he is not married to anyone.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by MK11

Maybe they see each other differently, but it's clear that temptation of a woman is not just physical appearance of a man, it has to do more with his words, his personality, appearance may help but it is not everything, while a man can be tempted by woman's beauty only.

I will say it again: it is to large degree influenced by conditioning. Women are attracted to men and vice versa. Women are largely taught to behave and react differently than men. It is not something specifically inherent to women or men. Many of their actions are learned and can change with changing culture, law, and society. The basic thing that defines the relationship is a moral code of conduct. Notice I didn't say legal code of conduct. I hope you discern the difference.

First of all, I didn't say that women have sexual desires, all what I saying is that she is affected by her love more than just the appearance to the man. In case of a man, of course he has love, but he is more affected by sexual desire, and easier to be tempted by just the beauty of a woman.

Men and women are different in their sexual nature, but they are still responsible for themselves in how they interact with each other. Men's and women's love are not comparable on a greater or lesser scale. You may want to refer to women's nurturing tendencies instead. There are some aspects of a woman's love that are different than a man and vice versa, but that is not the grounds upon which to make legal distinctions by mandating a hijab.

Exactly, that's what I wanted to reach, there are physiological differences between men and women, and on that basis, there is a differentiation in the laws concerning the 2 genders according to these differences.

The physiological differences should not to be used to create some type of distinction based upon legal code. It may be more appropiate to look at sexual immorality or immaturity. If given the proper exposure, both men and women will exhibit the same type of behaviors. That is why I say that if women are brought up in a society with the equivalent of male dominated roles, they can be expected to do the same type of things that men are negatively associated with now, including rape, sex domination, etc. What you are approving of is some kind of sex-based legislation instead of dealing with the differences as conditioned responses generated by years and centuries of role playing. The problem is the moral code of the individual--not the sexes.

As for rape, do you think that when a woman gets raped, she is interested or having a sexual desire?

Not very likely. That would apply regardless of whom was being raped--man or woman.

Of course not, because she is forced to do so with a man whom she doesn't love, and for the rapist, of course it is not a matter of love, it is only a matter of fulfilling his desire.

But, your position only shows me that you need to make laws to continue this conditioning of men not being able to control themselves when around women. If you teach men and women in Islamic societies to not think that way, you will see change and no need to try to force laws to govern them in those areas. Education is a very important part of the process. Trying to legislate male and female desires by covering up is ludicrous. Those desires come from within and need to be addressed from within. Islam deals with the outside and not the inside.

You are talking as if rape is ok in Western society nowadays.

Exactly how did you conclude that? When did I say anything about a Western society? I made a general statement that applies across the board. I suppose that you are reading that into it because you want to make some kind of point.

Sorry, what do you mean by women not seeing men as a physical threat?

It is an established fact that men are typically stronger than women; therefore, it is less likely that a woman would try to rape a man on that account. But if a society teaches men to be more feminine and subordinate to women, I would expect rape of men by women to be more prevalent. This goes back to conditioning of the mind.

Women are always weaker than men, how could they attack a man?

In case you didn't know, there are women stronger than men. If men are taught to accept women as their superior, I can see where it can happen. It goes back to conditioning.

And if they could, how could she has a sexual intercourse with him forcibly?

I suppose that your mind is not creative enough. If the woman is strong enough, she can exert her self onto him. Rape is not just a matter of sexual intercourse.

Man is the one who has intercourse with a woman not the opposite.

That is quite silly to think if the woman is the one in control that she can't dictate what happens. It is not jsut about physical strength.

Again, how come? Men are stronger than women by nature, how come that a day the opposite will happen,

I will keep repeating the theme: conditioning, conditioning, conditioning. Read some history of cultures dominated by women. Perhaps that will help you to understand what I am saying.

may be men will be pregnant at that time.

I perceive that you don't understand. Try again.

To get back to the central issue: passing laws via religion to regulate lust is not the way to go. Lust is something that is at the person's heart and needs to be dealt with aside from law. Thought polices are not going to be able to patrol the minds of men. All that Islam does is to disguise the problem by making it appear that the problem is gone because it sets out to prevent the outward reactions to an inner spiritual problem. Until Islam learns to deal with personal spiritual behaviors with spiritual remedies, then it can only mask the problems and claim victory for keeping such spiritual problems from being acted out or seen in public. Legislating sins don't get rid of the thought in the mind that leads to the outer signs of the sin. Learn from that!

 

[MK11]

Iran for one. "Temporary marriages" between a man and a prostitute might make make it "legal" but it is still prostitution.

Iran is NOT a Muslim country, it's a Shiite one. We Sunnis have nothing to do with them.

 

[MK11]

Then stop with your hollow and asinine claims of the superiority of Islamic culture unless you can actually provide an example in real life.

Well, when the Egyptian culture represent Islam correctly, you may have a point. First of all, most of Egyptian women wearing hijab are not wearing a real hijab, only a fake one thinking that if they covered their heads they are wearing hijab which is not true. Secondly, there are many other social factors helping in enlarging the problem of sexual harrassement, which are the difficulty for many people to work, and if they worked, they also have a large difficulty in marriage due to the bad economic affairs, and these are also against Islam, these types of people become so lust that either hijab or not won't make a lot of difference, but the solution for these people is to marry and have a settled life.

While the hijab is a solution to people who have something to do or an aim in their life, as temptation by women is an obstacle, even if he was married, he may see a woman more beautiful than his wife, and begin to be tempted.

 

[MK11]

Do Moslem women put on dignity with a hijab?

As far as I am aware, men and women who have dignity have it at all times, and do not ever put it off, whatever they wear.

Maybe Moslems are different.

When a woman wears a dress that her body is shown to all people, and all people look at her, this means that her body is for free. I see this against dignity.

Limit before what happens, exactly?

Limit for what she wears, is it ok for example to wear bikini? And if not, what is ok for her to wear?

My daughter was baptised at six months old. What impropriety are you imagining happened to her at that age? The priest held her in his arms, poured water on her forehead, and made the sign of the cross on her with water and oil. Meanwhile, I, her dad and her godparents stood around, in a church full of people.

If a mature woman will be baptized, how will this go?

It is not clothes that make a woman modest. If she is immodest, she can wear full hijab, and remain immodest. And if she is modest, she can wear what she likes, when she likes, and remain modest.

I agree with you on the first part, not only hijab which determines whether she is modest or not, it's also her acts, but both are important. And it may be the case that a woman not wearing hijab is modest in her acts, this will be good for her, but still she is wrong for not wearing the hijab.

And if the men around her sin, in their hearts, that is their sin, not hers.

Of course not, both of them sin, she must realize that men have a desire and can be tempted, so she must help them avoid that. But that way, she is helping them sin.

This is not true. A veiled woman is erotic to a Moslem man, and he is more likely to find her mysterious, inviting and attractive. And the Moslem women know it, which is why they wear, far more often than not, provocative eye make up and shoes that can only be described as extremely immodest.

What you are saying is not true at all, when men in my society want to look at women, they go to malls and places where they look at unveiled women, one even told me before that likes to infront of the church to look at women there, and I also see men look at unveiled women, but I rarely see them look at veiled women.

As for what happened with your daughter, I think that they didn't mean so, they only did so because they saw that she looked Islamic, for example, if your girl wore as a nun, people around her may do the same thing not because she looks erotic, but because she is wearing something they believe it's good for her.

The last statement has nothing to do with hijab, which one of its conditions is that it is not a temptation by itself.

Modesty is about the heart, not about eroticising the whole female form, to turn on Moslem men. Make no mistake, that is what is happening, and it has nothing to do with modesty on either side. Which is why Moslem women are being attacked, whether veiled or not, given half a chance.

Modesty is in heart as well as appearance, they are both important. See my post 38 to understand the case of sexual harrassement.

And still don't forget the consequence of nudity in Western societies that led to the notorious cases of adultery among Christians even the priests.

It seems Tertullian was true:
Having already undergone the trouble peculiar to my opinion, I will show in Latin also that it behoves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning-point of their age: that this observance is exacted by truth, on which no one can impose prescription—no space of times, no influence of persons, no privilege of regions. For these, for the most part, are the sources whence, from some ignorance or simplicity, custom finds its beginning; and then it is successionally confirmed into an usage, and thus is maintained in opposition to truth.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.iv.i.html