Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's, woman's desire has much more to do with love. Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?
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So is the contention that men are so weak-willed that they cannot control their own bodies and minds, therefore women must be prevented from many activities they could otherwise do as easily or better than many men? Women in Islam, then, must be altogether superior to the men, since they are not so swayed by the uncovered faces of men, and are gracious enough to suffer discomfort and discrimination to protect the weak wills of men.
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1. veiling does not and has not 'lower" adultery or rape all these centuries why would it happen now? do not see that.
2. Women who are not veiled can be a modest... You do not need hijab to do that for a woman
3. Actions? you mean as far as who is more religious a woman with or without hijab? Your call to answer like I said I am asking for information here... If you believe that "appearance" is not important then why wear the hijab? or is it a "show" or piety? just a token?
So you are now defending gender equality from what Islam says? Btw, you are the one who is going offtopic now.Your hadiths do not claim that women are "unequal" to men...where is that in your haddiths? Actually the opposite is stated...
And where did I say it doesn't happen in my land? Of course it happens, but not that notoriously as present at yours. Where did you find me saying that it prevents adultery?But if that problem of "adultery' was ONLY because the women are unveiled then you should not have any 'adultery' in your lands and.... unfortunately it still takes place...
There must be general rules to protect the society, she is not living alone. Free will doesn't mean you harm others, otherwise most disciplinary actions against crimes or violations should be cancelled.I am confused you said before that it a sin. she reconciles on her own no need for priest... just to go through this... fast.. Okay so far.. Then is she decides not to wear the veil any more ....Her free will is taken away ...she is a slave to men either her father or her husband and she "has" to even obey the governement to what she wears????
Did they say that these were just opinions for their era? It seems to be much more than that:These opinions are opinions of Christians who lived in that era. I do trust the canon law and the Bible and the decisions of the councils.
Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's,
woman's desire has much more to do with love.
Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?
Man's face or body is not that beautiful as women's, woman's desire has much more to do with love. Have you ever seen a girl who rape a man, or a man working as a prostitute?
Maybe they see each other differently, but it's clear that temptation of a woman is not just physical appearance of a man, it has to do more with his words, his personality, appearance may help but it is not everything, while a man can be tempted by woman's beauty only.Maybe that is the way that you see it, but it isn't so. Beauty is not just an outward physical thing. Men and women see each other differently.
First of all, I didn't say that women have sexual desires, all what I saying is that she is affected by her love more than just the appearance to the man. In case of a man, of course he has love, but he is more affected by sexual desire, and easier to be tempted by just the beauty of a woman.Really? Does that mean that men don't have love and desire too?
Exactly, that's what I wanted to reach, there are physiological differences between men and women, and on that basis, there is a differentiation in the laws concerning the 2 genders according to these differences. As for rape, do you think that when a woman gets raped, she is interested or having a sexual desire? Of course not, because she is forced to do so with a man whom she doesn't love, and for the rapist, of course it is not a matter of love, it is only a matter of fulfilling his desire.The reason that women don't generally rape men is because of other issues such as cultural training, cultural stigmas, the physical strength of men vs women, as well as physiological differences between men and women.
You are talking as if rape is ok in Western society nowadays.You will see more women rape guys and more men prostitute once a culture comes along that teaches that they should do it and that it is morally OK to do it.
Sorry, what do you mean by women not seeing men as a physical threat? Women are always weaker than men, how could they attack a man? And if they could, how could she has a sexual intercourse with him forcibly? Man is the one who has intercourse with a woman not the opposite.As soon as women reach the point that men no longer seem to be a physical threat to them, one can expect that women will become more aggressive in sexual perversions towards men.
Again, how come? Men are stronger than women by nature, how come that a day the opposite will happen, may be men will be pregnant at that time.When men become conditioned to see women as the authorities in societies, one should expect to see more female crimes against males, for example.
that is totally bogus....lol... Women do not have sexual drive? you set different standards... No, women can be tempted as much as men can sorry... What? women only go for a man if they are in love while man do not? women can get as tempted as men can ....Though you want women to cover themselves for men's sake...that proves that
How so?-women are not in control of their own bodies
It is not the case that they are objects owned by men, it is an order from God, for example if a woman wears a hijab, and her father or husband wants to prevent her, she shouldn't obey him, because Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him) ordered us not to obey a creature when ordering us to disobey the Creator.-women are used as objects to be "owned" by man either their father or their husband, who decides for them including the way they dress.
Again, thi is a clear interpolation to my words, I CLEARLY said before it is not just the responsibility of women, it is also the responsibility of the man, and if he even lookd at her, he will be sinned the same as she will be sinned.women have to cover themselves so that men cannot be tempted ... sounds sane to you?
That would mean that women "pay" the price for men's lustful desires, as they are the one's covering themselves. Leaving men not to accept any responsibility of their actions thus "blaming" women for their desires and actions if provoked....
Rape is different than seducing, the raped woman is not interested in being raped, neither the rapist does, while seduced man is driven and tempted by the woman, and again it has to do more with the character of a man than just his appearance, so it's much more easy for a woman to resist temptation by just appearance than man. Tell me, if the case was that temptation for a woman is the same as a man, why didn't the didascalia and Tertullian order men to veil?A woman cannot "rape" but can defenately seduce a guy...
Really? And where are they? And women are those who come to them and give them money for prostitution?Sure there are male prostitutes.
Also i have seen female prostitutes in mulsim countries and how they are treated ....But they do wear hijab and all... they are still tempting to males .. ...they do not last long as fundamentalist groups kills them...
Another post proves you are a bigot, where did Islam condone sexual harrassment? Nay I remind you of the notorious scandals of your priests? Do they represent Christianity? Actually if you judged religions through the actions of their people, you will be the loser, since Christians have been superiors in massacres, rape, adultery , homosexuality and all crimes than Muslims, but neither actions represent both religions, your hatred to Islam makes you think that primitive way. Grow up guy, you are already 49.This thread had moved into the twighlight zone where we have an Egyptian man lecturing us on the superiority of women's treatment in the Middle East. Hijab or no Hijab, women are treated like second class harlots in Egypt. So much for the moral strength of Islam!
And where are these Muslim countries? Prostitution is forbidden in all cases in Islam, whether she wears hijab or not, she is the one who seduces the man for money. And again these actions have nothing to do with Islam. I clearly said it is not only appearance which judges whether woman is good or not, but also her acts. And I actually don't recognize these Muslim fundamentalist groups.
Then stop with your hollow and asinine claims of the superiority of Islamic culture unless you can actually provide an example in real life.Another post proves you are a bigot, where did Islam condone sexual harrassment? Nay I remind you of the notorious scandals of your priests? Do they represent Christianity? Actually if you judged religions through the actions of their people, you will be the loser, since Christians have been superiors in massacres, rape, adultery , homosexuality and all crimes than Muslims, but neither actions represent both religions, your hatred to Islam makes you think that primitive way. Grow up guy, you are already 49.
Because they know that they are dignified and that their body is not a show to all people other than their husbands.
Btw, what do you think a Christian girl could wear on the beach, are there any limit for her?
And how could a priest baptize a Christian girl?
Usually the case in our societies is that men even if not so religious look at veiled women much more modestly than those who are not completely veiled, and this is not only a matter of religion, but a moral matter also. They may look at an unveiled woman, or may even deceive her, but when it comes to a veiled woman, his view towards her is much more respectful.
So if a woman goes out unveiled, her father or her elder brother or her husband should prevent her, if they didn't the government should.
As usual, you are interpolating my words, I never said that women don't have sexual desires, but it has to do with love more than just desire, since it is not only appearance that tempts the woman, it's man character and words as well, and this may affect her more than appearance. While in case of a man, it can be only woman's beauty that tempts man. So of course women are not tempted as much as men, when you find women tempted when being raped, you may have a point.
They are not "allowed" to dress as they please. How is this freedom? It is one thing to 'teach" modesty and another to "imposs" it... Why Islam feels that they have to "tell their women" how to dress? How is it the women's problem if men cannot handle themselves? Would it be better to teach men to be more modest in their lustful thoughts and actions?How so?
It is not the case that they are objects owned by men, it is an order from God, for example if a woman wears a hijab, and her father or husband wants to prevent her, she shouldn't obey him, because Prophet Muhammad(Peace be upon him) ordered us not to obey a creature when ordering us to disobey the Creator.
Again, thi is a clear interpolation to my words, I CLEARLY said before it is not just the responsibility of women, it is also the responsibility of the man, and if he even lookd at her, he will be sinned the same as she will be sinned.
It is not easier for woman.... and by bringing in he woman it does not justify the use of hijab in women... You treat women as a prisoner.... cursed to wear a full dress looking at the world out there... How would you like to wear a head to toe dress with very limited vision of the world??? Would you really and truly feel blessed? I do not think so...Rape is different than seducing, the raped woman is not interested in being raped, neither the rapist does, while seduced man is driven and tempted by the woman, and again it has to do more with the character of a man than just his appearance, so it's much more easy for a woman to resist temptation by just appearance than man. Tell me, if the case was that temptation for a woman is the same as a man, why didn't the didascalia and Tertullian order men to veil?
We are not discussing Chritianity here...BTW, you say it was something special with their era? Look at what Tertullian says:
Having already undergone the trouble peculiar to my opinion, I will show in Latin also that it behoves our virgins to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning-point of their age: that this observance is exacted by truth, on which no one can impose prescription—no space of times, no influence of persons, no privilege of regions. For these, for the most part, are the sources whence, from some ignorance or simplicity, custom finds its beginning; and then it is successionally confirmed into an usage, and thus is maintained in opposition to truth.
Notice also that he was talking only about virgins, putting the case that for married women, there is no question about her being veiled.
Really? And where are they? And women are those who come to them and give them money for prostitution?
And where are these Muslim countries? Prostitution is forbidden in all cases in Islam, whether she wears hijab or not, she is the one who seduces the man for money. And again these actions have nothing to do with Islam. I clearly said it is not only appearance which judges whether woman is good or not, but also her acts. And I actually don't recognize these Muslim fundamentalist groups.
Maybe they see each other differently, but it's clear that temptation of a woman is not just physical appearance of a man, it has to do more with his words, his personality, appearance may help but it is not everything, while a man can be tempted by woman's beauty only.
First of all, I didn't say that women have sexual desires, all what I saying is that she is affected by her love more than just the appearance to the man. In case of a man, of course he has love, but he is more affected by sexual desire, and easier to be tempted by just the beauty of a woman.
Exactly, that's what I wanted to reach, there are physiological differences between men and women, and on that basis, there is a differentiation in the laws concerning the 2 genders according to these differences.
As for rape, do you think that when a woman gets raped, she is interested or having a sexual desire?
Of course not, because she is forced to do so with a man whom she doesn't love, and for the rapist, of course it is not a matter of love, it is only a matter of fulfilling his desire.
You are talking as if rape is ok in Western society nowadays.
Sorry, what do you mean by women not seeing men as a physical threat?
Women are always weaker than men, how could they attack a man?
And if they could, how could she has a sexual intercourse with him forcibly?
Man is the one who has intercourse with a woman not the opposite.
Again, how come? Men are stronger than women by nature, how come that a day the opposite will happen,
may be men will be pregnant at that time.
Iran for one. "Temporary marriages" between a man and a prostitute might make make it "legal" but it is still prostitution.
Then stop with your hollow and asinine claims of the superiority of Islamic culture unless you can actually provide an example in real life.
Do Moslem women put on dignity with a hijab?
As far as I am aware, men and women who have dignity have it at all times, and do not ever put it off, whatever they wear.
Maybe Moslems are different.
Limit for what she wears, is it ok for example to wear bikini? And if not, what is ok for her to wear?Limit before what happens, exactly?
If a mature woman will be baptized, how will this go?My daughter was baptised at six months old. What impropriety are you imagining happened to her at that age? The priest held her in his arms, poured water on her forehead, and made the sign of the cross on her with water and oil. Meanwhile, I, her dad and her godparents stood around, in a church full of people.
I agree with you on the first part, not only hijab which determines whether she is modest or not, it's also her acts, but both are important. And it may be the case that a woman not wearing hijab is modest in her acts, this will be good for her, but still she is wrong for not wearing the hijab.It is not clothes that make a woman modest. If she is immodest, she can wear full hijab, and remain immodest. And if she is modest, she can wear what she likes, when she likes, and remain modest.
Of course not, both of them sin, she must realize that men have a desire and can be tempted, so she must help them avoid that. But that way, she is helping them sin.And if the men around her sin, in their hearts, that is their sin, not hers.
What you are saying is not true at all, when men in my society want to look at women, they go to malls and places where they look at unveiled women, one even told me before that likes to infront of the church to look at women there, and I also see men look at unveiled women, but I rarely see them look at veiled women.This is not true. A veiled woman is erotic to a Moslem man, and he is more likely to find her mysterious, inviting and attractive. And the Moslem women know it, which is why they wear, far more often than not, provocative eye make up and shoes that can only be described as extremely immodest.
Modesty is in heart as well as appearance, they are both important. See my post 38 to understand the case of sexual harrassement.Modesty is about the heart, not about eroticising the whole female form, to turn on Moslem men. Make no mistake, that is what is happening, and it has nothing to do with modesty on either side. Which is why Moslem women are being attacked, whether veiled or not, given half a chance.
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