I don't believe that it's evil, but it does meet the definition of "of the world" as it was something that wasn't developed by Christians. So if Christians are suppsoed to avoid "things of the world" like music/movies/TV/books then why not maths?
You don't make any sense from a biblical standpoint. Have you never read Philippians 4:8? The Bible has a standard of beauty, and we have a responsibility to know it. I did not suggest the application of a subjective standard of beauty. I am suggesting a biblical standard. Your standard of judging music 'by the spirit' is the nonsense I have referred to. There is no precedent in Scripture of judging music by the spirit. That is just subjective, mystical nonsense.
Hey! Backmasking was fun back then.Didn't this get thrown out with the notion of backwards masking in the 70's and 80's?
Good question.What it comes down to this: I find myself wondering how this debate would have gone down if Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart were the topic of discussion.
With all due respect I believe you are taking what I've said and what this thread is about out of context.
Let me rephrase: You can not properly judge how good or evil something is based on how beautiful you view it to be. To do so is nonsensical and does not square up with God's Word. Philipians 4:8 in no way contradicts this. This verse is telling you to meditate on things that have these traits (rather than negative things) and how can we know if something fits under these categories? Through the lens of The Word we may judge righteously (which we are indeed called by Jesus Christ Himself to judge righteous judgment) whether something is true, honest, just, pure, lovely, or of good report and to see if there is any virtue or praise in that something. In fact we can easily see from the entire verse of John 7:24 that you should: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Applying this then, should you judge whether a song is holy or evil based on it's sound alone? How good it makes you feel? No! We should judge it based on how God convicts us and what He has clearly said in His Word.
Correct. The guys in DT have brains. The guys in Van Halen do not. Talk about 'judging by the spirit', when I hear VH it grieves my spirit. I feel like I'm at a party with drunks and loose women. Mindless men singing about a base, empty life. Whoever wrote DT's songs, I could sit with them and talk about the Bible and life for 3 hours, and I know they would be respectful and honorable towards good things. Heck, Jesus Himself would be blessed to sit with them. Even when they drop an f-bomb, like in 'Honor Thy Father', they are showing an appreciation for honor and righteousness, and what it means to be a good parent.
When I talk about judging music by esthetics, I mean that the real value in music is in its architecture and arrangement, like you see in Beethoven. By this standard, some classical music would fail, and a lot of rock would fail, but passing or failing the standard would have nothing to do with being rock or not rock. DT would pass with flying colors, as would most of prog, and Rush and Kansas. And Yes too. Rock isn't the issue. The issue is the quality of the music itself. Present a song to a professor of music at a university for his academic opinion and you're off to a good start.
I don't know how God could be an elitist. He calls His people out of bondage, and away from carnality and vanity. That's not elitist. Christians should avoid forms of entertainment which glorify sinful and vain living. My preference for DT is not so much about the music as about the lyrics. If VH focused on more wholesome things I would enjoy them more, but I don't want to listen to music that has a focus on sex and drunkenness.Are you suggesting that God is a musical elitist and that Christians should avoid 'simplistic' or less 'cultured' sounds?
Here is a link I found not too long ago which I had saved in my bookmarks for reference. It is from Enjoying God Ministries, and it deals with "legalism vs. liberty" and the many issues that are often linked to it. I feel I should post it here because music is one of many such issues we deal with as believers. We all need to know how to handle one another, and respect fellow believers whose convictions may differ when it comes to certain theological matters.
http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/liberty-vs--legalism/
Another link I refer to analyzes the music issue alone. It is good food for thought from a music minister's perspective, touching on the function of music in Biblical times, the "sacred vs. secular", "traditional vs. contemporary", and other such disputes, developing a music philosophy, and much more.
https://musingsonmusicinthechurch.wordpress.com/
These are not placed here to change anyone's mind on how they honestly feel convicted regarding music that is okay or is not okay for Christians to listen to. I gave these links merely as different perspectives to chew on so as to better relate to one another regarding this and other debatable theological issues. We all need to remember (and I'm speaking for myself, as well) that any convictions we have regarding "doubtful things" that clearly apart from the truths the Bible is clear on (see Romans 14:1) are just that - convictions - and that although we are to be of the same mind in Christ, that doesn't mean we are always going to agree. However, we should agree to respectfully disagree on these things, as we know that none of the matters we disagreed about on earth are not going to matter when we get to heaven.
Let's let the Lord speak to our hearts as the unique persons that we are, and allow Him to do the leading, working, and shaping of our lives as we serve Him as best we know how.
No, I haven't taken anything out of context. I think you've misunderstood the issue of judging something based on a biblical standard.
This is exactly the same thing I've been saying and I have brought up Romans 14:1 in conversations about this numerous times. Please forgive me as I haven't watched the videos, but what you've said in your post is the same as what I've said and what the Bible says and that is good and encouraging.
Since we obviously can't agree on a biblical criteria for judging music, there is nothing to discuss.Look, I must respectfully inform you that I will not continue this conversation. I ask that you simply consider what I've already said as it is enough. I will not wrangle over words with you.
OTOH, Bill Gothard gave EXACTLY what he used to judge music, including keys, chord structures, time signatures and historical origins of all of the above.Popular preachers have thundered against rock n roll for 55 years, like Jack van Impe and Jimmy Swaggart, but none have ever bothered to explain why they believe what they believe. They never show us the standard they are using,
I went to 4 Basic Youth conferences when I was a teen. A musician in The Chalcedon Report refuted Gothard's criteria. I wanted to save the issues, but I have packrat problems. Now I need the material and don't have it. I respect Chalcedon for developing the kinds of criteria that I demand, but I'm not a Reconstructionist.OTOH, Bill Gothard gave EXACTLY what he used to judge music, including keys, chord structures, time signatures and historical origins of all of the above.
Swaggart, Impe et al just used Gothard's research.
I do NOT agree with Gothard at all.
I mean, why are Christian rock bands bad? Because they still use that sign that apparently means "Hail Satan?" Where does it say that the sign means hail Satan? Because it apparently looks like a couple of horns? I can think of many other hand gestures that exist that look like a pair of horns, are they all evil? And if it did, why does that matter? Because it mostly means "rock on" now.
I'm pretty sure your be fine with most bands even Maralyn Manson did Personal Jesus.
Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus. Marilyn Manson covered it. Look up the lyrics to that song, it has nothing to do with Jesus. It's talking about making an idol out of the singer ('speaker', if you will) and is rather sexually suggestive.
I know Depeche Mode did Personal Jesus and Marilyn Manson covered it...... The very first version I heard of Personal Jesus was by Depeche Mode, but I thought it was to do with Jesus (the guy from the bible not any singer) I did look up the lyrics, still sounds like it's about Jesus, I'm not sure what you mean about 'sexually suggestive' Are you referring to the music videos? If so which one.... The one by Depeche Mode or Marilyn Manson as both music videos have women in...... Lyrically though, I think it talks about Jesus, I can't hear anything about making an idol out of the singer........
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