Why evolution isn't scientific

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DogmaHunter

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No matter if its right or wrong... that is a curious detail.

Complete trust or confidence in someone or something - they/it could be correct or incorrect.

So i guess the next step would be to determine if this someone or something is wrong or right - or for a better term - true or false.

No, here's where you are mistaken. That is not the next step. That is the FIRST step. Before you actually "believe" / accept the proposition. That is, if you care about being rational.


How would you go about verifying the truth - or falsehood - about the below statement? Or would you like me to examine it?

"You can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ."

I don't know. What objectively testable predictions does it make?

Well lets look at what the standard definition is. I refer to google and wiki

Faith is a complete trust or confidence in someone or something or a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Wiki on faith.

In the context of religion, one can define faith as confidence or trust in a particular system of religious belief,

[1] within which faith may equate to confidence based on some perceived degree of warrant,

[2]in contrast to a definition of faith as being belief without evidence.

The word translated as "faith" in the New Testament is the Greek word πίστις (pístis) which can also be translated "belief", "faithfulness", and "trust".

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Faith in the unseen leads to the proof of God - ask me?

Religious faith, is belief without evidence.

Lets say your child - congratulations by the way - did not know any better and you were trying to explain a more advanced concept to them. If this concept is not understood it could be fatal for the recipient. Why would the child be unjustified to have faith in what you say and acknowledge what you said is truth?

If you need to appeal to children's blind acceptance of what perceived authorities tell them, in order to draw an analogy for your religious beliefs, then you are just making my point for me.

Indeed, it is juvenile. Children grow out of such blind acceptance of what authorities tell them. As an adult, there are other standards to adhere to.

We go to doctors because it has been observed that many people have been remedied of their illnesses. Now this is not faith without evidence, this is a case of trust. We put our trust in the doctor ie faith.

No, that's not faith in the religious sense. That's a reasonable and rational expectation based on the objective evidence and track record of medical science.

Faith in the religious sense, would be more like believing that your car mechanic with no medical training whatsoever, is able to cure your cancer. There's no objective evidence or track record for that.

Besides religion, have you ever encountered a situation where you could not see the outcome or situation, and had to trust someones word for it or decision?

Not blindly, no. I require objective reasons for putting my trust in something. Also, real world situations are false analogies. Real world situations don't require me to believe that natural laws have been suspended or violated.
Your religious claims, do.

Faith can be justified by a result either observed or experienced personally.

No. This is where bias comes into play.
To distinguish true from false, you require objective means to make that evaluation. Counting only on your own experience (or more exactly, your interpretation thereof...) is subjective.

Faith is trust

Religious faith isn't.
Trust is based on objective track records.
Religious faith, is blind acceptance of propositions.

At the end of the day neither you and i can know everything or have the data so we will have to accept an appeal to authority.

No. I have no problem acknowledging ignorance and just saying "i don't know".
Appeal to authority, btw, is a logical fallacy.

Why do you accept the thoughts and conclusions of men who are extremely prone to error? Why are they more convincing than Christianity?

Which thoughts and conclusions are you talking about?

A phylogenetic tree or evolutionary tree is a branching diagram or "tree" showing the evolutionary relationships among various biological species or other entities—their phylogeny (/faɪˈlɒdʒəni/)

Please excuse me. This diagram is not a form of proof! Why should i be convinced of evolution based on this artwork?

It's not artwork.
You seem to think that such diagrams are dreamed up. They aren't. They are factual representations of shared genetics, anatomy, geographic distribution, etc.

These days, they aren't even drawn. They are auto-generated, based on completely sequenced genomes, by algoritms. And the only thing these algorithms do, is compare sequences of DNA and map out matches.

If the matches end up in a bush instead of a tree, then that is the graph that the algorithm will generate. But it isn't. It's a nested hierarchy. Every time. And it matches the hierachies if you look at just sequences of DNA, individual genes, entire genomes, comparative anatomy, etc.

These are all independent datasets that perfectly converge on the exact same answer, every single time.

Have you got anything else?
Ps one at a time :)
So you can auto-dissmiss that as well out of ignorance?
First, try to comprehend this one properly.

Well i guess its my time to shine. Could you please give me an example of how this is so?

I'm not going to give you an education in the evolutionary process.

In short:
- every new born comes with a set of mutations.
- every new born inherits its genes from its parents, including the mutations of those parents, while adding its own mutations.
- generation after generation, accumulation takes place of the mutations of the ancestors plus the mutations of the individual
- a diverging family / phylogenetic tree is the only possible outcome. Well... that, or extinction.


In other words "there must be something wrong with you if you question it".
Or you're just ignorant / uneducated concerning the subject, off course.
As you clearly are, as proven in the above paragraphes. When you think that a phylogenetic tree is "just artwork", then clearly you aren't well informed.
If you then also need to ask how the evolution process produces such hierarchies, then clearly you don't have a clue.

That's fine. Ignorance is easily cured, after all. It just takes a bit of study.
Off course, if you are unwilling to put in the effort to do that, then you'll just miss the facts. But then you don't get to argue about it either. Or at least, your opinions about it are worthless / meaningless.

Why should we not question evolution, what makes it so concrete that it is absolutely certain?

Not "absolutely" certain - in science, nothing is "absolutely" certain.
But it surely is as certain as it gets in science. And what makes that a true statement - I just explained it to you: convergence on the exact same conclusion by literally all relevant sets of (independent) data, that you can even cross reference with other sciences like geology and geological timelines. And literally not a single piece of evidence that contradicts it.

That's about as good as it ever gets in science. This makes evolution one of the most, if not THE most supported, theories in all of science.

We know more about evolution then we know about atoms.

So evolution is a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end or a natural series of changes. How do you account for so much diversity considering we have only a one single celled organism as our ancestor?

It is literally what evolution explains.
Inheritance of traits and genetic isolation, inevitably leading to divergence.

There you have it peoples Dogmahunter has a dogma and a faith. Evolution is incontrovertibly true he does not question it.

Not at all what I said.
 
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xianghua

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Only if there if is evidence that there is a lineage of dolphin evolution going back that far. Finding a modern day dolphin fossil in 100 million year old sediment will wreck the theory of evolution.
Do you understand this?
but the evidence is the fossils itself. so if we will find a 100 my old dolphin fossil evolution will be just fine.
 
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xianghua

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Except it's not. The editor's comment clearly says that it's merely a think piece. Nothing more.
first: if so why they published it in their jornal at all?

second: here is another one that support id:

Genetic Analysis Of Coordinate Flagellar And Type Iii Regulatory Circuits In Pathogenic Bacteria

from the paper:

"Molecular machines display a key signature or hallmark of design, namely,
irreducible complexity. In all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of
the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or
engineering played a role the origin of the system."
 
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DogmaHunter

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"Molecular machines display a key signature or hallmark of design, namely,
irreducible complexity. In all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of
the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or
engineering played a role the origin of the system."


...except in those instances which ID proponents identified IRC after which it was subsequently shown how the things in fact could and did develop step by step.

IRC = nothing but an argument from incredulity.
 
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xianghua

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You are wrong, xianghua.
There are ID papers that are pathetic attacks on evolution and do not support ID. There is no paper that shows that there is design in any living organization except in the author's imagination as in the paper you cited. There are not "many" papers about ID at all. Read the list you gave us. At best there are 13 papers as opposed to the vast number of papers about evolution. And those ID papers stop in 2013 :doh:!
the original claim was that there is no peer review paper that support id. so i showed that its not true. case close.
 
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sfs

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A phylogenetic tree or evolutionary tree is a branching diagram or "tree" showing the evolutionary relationships among various biological species or other entities—their phylogeny (/faɪˈlɒdʒəni/)

Please excuse me. This diagram is not a form of proof! Why should i be convinced of evolution based on this artwork?
A phylogenetic tree is not artwork; it need not be visually represented at all. It is a representation of the relationships between organisms based on empirical data. It is evidence for common descent because common descent predicts that relationships between species should form a nested hierarchy.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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but the evidence is the fossils itself. so if we will find a 100 my old dolphin fossil evolution will be just fine.

If it's a prehistoric dolphin with an existing lineage dating back further than 100 million years, evolution would be fine.
If it was the fossil of a modern dolphin found in layers dated to 100 million years, then evolution would be in trouble.
Do you understand this?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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first: if so why they published it in their jornal at all?

second: here is another one that support id:

Genetic Analysis Of Coordinate Flagellar And Type Iii Regulatory Circuits In Pathogenic Bacteria

from the paper:

"Molecular machines display a key signature or hallmark of design, namely,
irreducible complexity. In all irreducibly complex systems in which the cause of
the system is known by experience or observation, intelligent design or
engineering played a role the origin of the system."

First: did you read the abstract? It was published as a thought piece, not as an actual piece of scientific literature.

Second: two papers about ID. Yeah, that's REALLY going to overturn mainstream biology and show everyone that evolution is wrong. (I was being sarcastic)
 
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the iconoclast

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A phylogenetic tree is not artwork; it need not be visually represented at all. It is a representation of the relationships between organisms based on empirical data. It is evidence for common descent because common descent predicts that relationships between species should form a nested hierarchy.

Hello brother :)

Thank you for your reply. I see your a geneticist, how is this evidence for common descent?

God bless you saint :)
 
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sfs

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I see your a geneticist, how is this evidence for common descent?
I believe I just stated that: "It is evidence for common descent because common descent predicts that relationships between species should form a nested hierarchy." In other words, evolution predicts that phylogenetic trees should be good descriptions of the actual similarities between species. They are, especially when genetic data is used.

What part don't you understand here?
 
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Kylie

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So evolution is linked to physical reality? How is this so ... ?

Evolution is linked to physical reality because it describes how physical organisms living in the physical world respond over generations to pressures found in that physical world.
 
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Kylie

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Hey hey kylie :)

We are still on topic.

Iconoclast - "So if we wanna know if each other is a being and can be known. One or the other will need to make contact, go through the right channels, get the right info and find where the other is?"

Kylie - "That's one way of doing it. There are other ways, I'm sure."

Iconoclast - " What other ways can you suggest"

Kylie - "No idea."

Please excuse me. At one stage you are sure there is another method but then you conclude you have no idea and cannot produce another method.

So we can safely conclude that if we wanna know if each other is a being and can be known. One or the other will need to make contact, go through the right channels, get the right info and find where the other is.

The objective evidence for your existance can only be proven if we make a meaningful contact ie you come to me and shake me by the shoulders. One or the other will need to make the effort and seek the other out. One or the other will need to abide by terms or a criteria.

I'm not sure why you are going on about this. You said that my existence was like God's existence, and you asked me how I could prove to you that I exist. I gave you an example. So I showed that it is indeed possible for me to prove that I exist. Now it's your turn - what could God do to prove to me that he exists?

And yet you don't seem interested in talking about this part of your argument, you just seem to want me to provide more examples of how I could prove I exist. You are attempting to get out of proving your point. I have given you a clear and easy to understand example of how I can prove to you that I exist beyond reasonable doubt. Now it is time for you to tell me how God could prove to me that he exists beyond reasonable doubt.

The fact or state of living or having objective reality - not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

Yes, I know what objective means.

To get the proof we must follow the christian method ie open your heart to Jesus, confess your sins and acknowledge that He is your saviour. For this to work you must have complete trust that Jesus is who He says He is and you must humble your self.

Once we have 100% faith then we get a result. You will feel the presence of God and He can be known through the Holy Spirit.

Lets get some back and forth. What do you think about this reply?

Is there something we can explore in detail?

That's a terrible way of getting proof. People have done this and gotten "proof" of all sorts of things. You are asking me to accept subjective experience as objective fact.

By your argument, I can claim that one plus one equals red because I really feel it in my heart, and I have faith that adding numbers together makes a colour.

If I said I could prove to you that I exist by just asking you to accept in your heart that I exist, does that sound like a good way of knowing if I really exist? Of course not. It's a rubbish way. And it doesn't stop being rubbish if you try to use it to determine the existence of God rather than me.

James 1:6
But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

Deuteronomy 10:12)
God requires only that you fear the LORD your God, and live in a way that pleases him, and love him and serve him with all your heart and soul

Matthew 7:7
Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

Telling people to not think about it and just take your word for it is not providing proof.

Cool so there is purpose or reason? What would that be?

Tool is an interesting word to use in context with evolution.

I'm sorry, I forgot that you seem to need everything spelled out in detail for you.

Our understanding of how evolution works is an important tool in understanding how life works.

a device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

a thing used to help perform a job.

a person used or exploited by another.

a piece of software that carries out a particular function, typically creating or modifying another program.

a distinct design in the tooling of a book.

a stupid, irritating, or contemptible man



What did u mean by using that word?


Cheers :)

I'd say that the second definition, "a thing used to help perform a job" works well. Sure, it's not a physical thing, but it's an idea that helps us work with information we have gathered about the real world.
 
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Kylie

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a good joke.

The fact that you think it's a joke just proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. Evolution has been used to make testable predictions in the past, and those predictions were found to be correct.

http://answersinscience.org/evo_science.html

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some...-the-theory-of-evolution-by-natural-selection

Falsifiable Predictions of Evolutionary Theory on JSTOR

There are a few sources showing how evolution makes testable predictions, and the first source gives many specific examples of these predictions and shows how they were later proven correct.

indeed you dont know what you are talking about. bottom line: you was wrong about the claim that we cant push back many species. and you cant even admit this simple fact.

You don't seem to understand my point. We can NOT just push groups back as far as we'd like to. We can not push a group back to a point where we find the ancestors of that group who had not yet evolved key features of the group. I explained it to you with my example of how we could not find fossils of modern dolphins earlier than we find fossils of ambulocetus.

I can't understand how you have not understood this point.

Can I find any evidence that you existed that comes from a time before your great-great-great grandfather?
 
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Kylie

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but the evidence is the fossils itself. so if we will find a 100 my old dolphin fossil evolution will be just fine.

No it won't. Evolutionary theory does not have any mechanism in place to explain a 100 myo dolphin.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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but the evidence is the fossils itself. so if we will find a 100 my old dolphin fossil evolution will be just fine.
So you say, and others tell you why you are wrong. We can easily settle this disagreement - show us the 100 my old dolphin fossil and let's see who's right.
 
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the iconoclast

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I believe I just stated that: "It is evidence for common descent because common descent predicts that relationships between species should form a nested hierarchy." In other words, evolution predicts that phylogenetic trees should be good descriptions of the actual similarities between species. They are, especially when genetic data is used.

What part don't you understand here?

Hello brother and thank you for your reply.

I want to investigate and see if this belief or proposition is true or valid. So how is this evidence for common descent? Could you show me ie an example of how it is so?

God bless you saint :)
 
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DogmaHunter

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Hello brother and thank you for your reply.

I want to investigate and see if this belief or proposition is true or valid. So how is this evidence for common descent? Could you show me ie an example of how it is so?

God bless you saint :)

How many times must it be repeated?

Scientific models make testable predictions. That's how you can test their validity / accuracy.
One of the predictions of evolution, is that when you compare living things and map out the genetic matches, you should get a nested hierarchical pattern. And when you actually compare living things and map out the matches, such a pattern is exactly what you get.

Or are you asking why evolution predicts such a pattern?

If that's the case, then it seems safe to say that you have no clue about how the evolutionary process works. It's pretty basic......

One word: inheritance.

Parents pass on traits to off spring. It's how we can tell your biological dad from your step dad.

It's how we can compare 2 DNA strings and estimate the level of relatedness.

It's how we can pick the DNA of your siblings from a random set of DNA strings.
 
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the iconoclast

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How many times must it be repeated?

Scientific models make testable predictions. That's how you can test their validity / accuracy.
One of the predictions of evolution, is that when you compare living things and map out the genetic matches, you should get a nested hierarchical pattern. And when you actually compare living things and map out the matches, such a pattern is exactly what you get.

Or are you asking why evolution predicts such a pattern?

If that's the case, then it seems safe to say that you have no clue about how the evolutionary process works. It's pretty basic......

One word: inheritance.

Parents pass on traits to off spring. It's how we can tell your biological dad from your step dad.

It's how we can compare 2 DNA strings and estimate the level of relatedness.

It's how we can pick the DNA of your siblings from a random set of DNA strings.

Hey dh ;)

As you are aware i record and document our conversations for continuity. This is the first time you have you mentioned these details, now you are starting to give me more. Next time i require examples to reference and examine, however good work!

I will reply to this and your other posts shortly.

Cheers ;)
 
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sfs

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So how is this evidence for common descent? Could you show me ie an example of how it is so?
Sorry, I've already answered this question. If you answer mine, I may be able to provide a more useful response: what part of what I wrote above don't you understand?
 
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