Why Evolution is True

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stevevw

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Because I dont believe there is any real evidence for that.

Here are some aspects of evolution: mutation, natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow. Which ones of those are not supported by evidence?
They are all real but they dont mean that it allows animals to change from one creature into a totally new one. That goes beyond the point of the evidence as far as I can see. Mutations happen but they are limited to changes within what is already there. They are mainly negative and dont add new info. Natural selection works for creatures to change to adapt to their environment. But it is limited to what is already there. what is already in the gene pool. So a bird can change its beak but it cannot turn into a fish.
 
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Let's look at this, you still don't know how life came about because you don't know what a God is or how a God came to be, if you replaced the word "God" with any other name you can think of the result would be exactly the same, you would still not know where life came from and you would be no closer to finding the answer.
It's reminds me of another non-answer story,
how did that big rock get up on top of that mountain? the big Wingwang put it there, what's the big Wingwang? I don't know but it put that big rock up on top of that mountain.
That is the kind of thinking required to be religious, I have heard it called non-thinking acceptance.

I was asking a question as to how a person who believes in evolution and God thinks. Not how I think. I know what I believe and think and I'm not a non thinker. But there also comes a time when thinking and maths and science and all the brain power in the world wont give you the answer and you have to know when that is. Thats called faith, Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
Forgive me but you must be a non-thinker otherwise you would see that having faith in something when you have no idea what that something is still doesn't supply you with an answer, all you have done is create another problem, you now have two problems and still no answers.

Faith is not an answer in fact it's the biggest non-answer there is, all you are doing is saying to yourself, I don't know what the answer is so I will make something up or believe something that someone else has made up and make that my answer, to make that work you must not allow yourself to think about what you are doing and just accept it.

Of course I am wrong because you have been trained or have trained yourself to think as you do.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Because I dont believe there is any real evidence for that.

They are all real but they dont mean that it allows animals to change from one creature into a totally new one. That goes beyond the point of the evidence as far as I can see. Mutations happen but they are limited to changes within what is already there. They are mainly negative and dont add new info. Natural selection works for creatures to change to adapt to their environment. But it is limited to what is already there. what is already in the gene pool. So a bird can change its beak but it cannot turn into a fish.

As you've mentioned fish, how about fish to amphibians?
 
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stevevw

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As you've mentioned fish, how about fish to amphibians?
Well thats the thing we dont know that amphibians are just a separate species and thats it. They just maybe creatures that occupy the territory between land and water and thats it. Fish are fish, amphibians are amphibians and land animals are land animals and birds are birds. Just because they have some similar features between them doesn't mean they come from each other.
 
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Mr Strawberry

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Well thats the thing we dont know that amphibians are just a separate species and thats it. They just maybe creatures that occupy the territory between land and water and thats it. Fish are fish, amphibians are amphibians and land animals are land animals and birds are birds. Just because they have some similar features between them doesn't mean they come from each other.

So you're not impressed by tiktaalik?
 
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biggles53

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From what I understand those who believe in God and darwinian evolution believe that God started the process of evolution and thats how we get life from no life. But how Adam and Eve come into I am not sure. The fall of man is being seen today. Some say sinse then our genetics has deteriorated and will continue until we are susceptible to all sorts of things. Its like a de evolution rather than evolution.

It seems to be going that way with all the new diseases that are coming out like HIV, swine and bird flu and all the other infections we are getting. Anti biotics dont work as well anymore and there is talk of super bugs eventually making an epidemic.

But our societies are also breaking down and we are always in some sort of conflict. Many go hungry and terrorism and war is on our door steps. Some say this has got to do with the fall of man and sin entering the world. Things break down and deteriorate. The planet is suffering and we are using up resources fast. How long will it last and how long before something big happens that is going to cause a lot of suffering. If we dont do something we are going to destroy this planet and make it very hard in the meantime for many.

Maybe this is what the bible says about how mankind destroys his world and rejects God. It will get to a point where things will get to much and thats when Jesus will return. I just wonder what those who believe in evolution and God think of this. Because if they believe in evolution then we should be getting better adapted to our environment. The survival of the fittest means that those in our species of humans who dont adapt and keep up will just die out and thats just to bad for them because they couldn't change and adapt to whats happening.

Your only problems there are...

1. Infectious diseases have decreased dramatically as a cause of death or infirmity in humans over the past couple of centuries.

2. Notwithstanding the events occurring in the Ukraine and Gaza currently, we are living in the most peaceful, non-violent period of human history....Wars are less frequent and result in way fewer deaths than in the past...homicide rates are declining all round the world, even in the gun crazy US.....violent crime generally has been decreasing with each succeeding generation...

So, contrary to what various religious figures would have you believe, the world isn't going to hell in a handbasket any time soon....
 
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stevevw

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Forgive me but you must be a non-thinker otherwise you would see that having faith in something when you have no idea what that something is still doesn't supply you with an answer, all you have done is create another problem, you now have two problems and still no answers.

Faith is not an answer in fact it's the biggest non-answer there is, all you are doing is saying to yourself, I don't know what the answer is so I will make something up or believe something that someone else has made up and make that my answer, to make that work you must not allow yourself to think about what you are doing and just accept it.

Of course I am wrong because you have been trained or have trained yourself to think as you do.
Well then I pity you as you will never be open to what can be beyond what you see. When you love someone do you know they will be faithful. Do you have the evidence. No you trust them and you have this connection that tells you that you are at one with each other. It cant be broken down and analyzed. It has no mathematical equation, you just know. There are little reassurances you have that tell you that you are not being deceived and that trust is what builds your bond and connection. If you try to get that evidence and distrust it for no good reason then you will lose it. So not everything is built on evidence that can be proved completely.

This is the very essence of a faith in God. You just dont blindly trust. You have a relationship with God which is evidenced in you on a daily basis. Just like a relationship with another you will be reassured and there will be signs that everything is OK. It manifests itself in your life and produces results that give you that reassurance. This is the holy spirit at work in your life. It has been working in peoples lives and changing them for the better and giving them the strength to achieve many things beyond what they thought impossible.

But it isn't in the man made things of this world or the material wealth. It isn't in the physical and takes a faith and trust to find it. You cant analyze it and yet it makes more sense than anything that can be put forward as an answer to mans problems in this world. Just like people think that we humans have all the answers and capabilities to solve everything in this world we cant. Just like science will not solve all mans problems either. We will find that as we go on the more we reject God and rely on ourselves the more we will fail.

1 Corinthians 3:18-20

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”
 
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Dizredux

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Because I dont believe there is any real evidence for that.

They are all real but they dont mean that it allows animals to change from one creature into a totally new one. That goes beyond the point of the evidence as far as I can see.
Isn't it then a good thing that the Theory of Evolution does not say that? The ToE does not say that one creature will turn into a totally new one, nor does it say that one species will turn into a totally new one either.

What it does say is that a new species branching off from the old one will be *slightly* different from the one it came from. Then that new species branches off from the previous species and a new *slightly* different species from the one it derived from will exist. Rinse and repeat over and over and you will get a species that could be *very* different from the original one we started with but is not *totally new*. There will still be a number of traceable similarities with the original one. What we might get is a species different enough that we will give it a new name.

Mutations happen but they are limited to changes within what is already there.
You are both right and wrong here. What mutations do is change the DNA of the individual. That change may or may not result in a change in the way the organism looks or operates. Generally though the mutations alter the genetic make up of genes already present so mostly they are modifications and not totally different. So you are right to a degree here. There may be some exceptions so I am not going to make any blanket statements but this is mostly the way it works.

Describing this modification of genetic makeup repeated many times is usually termed Descent with Modification. The ToE predicts this and this is what we find. For the most part evolution is modification of what is already there so what we have is different versions of what is "already there" and those different versions, if successful, tend to stay with the organism's descendents. Again, wash, rinse and repeat over and over and you get evolution.


They are mainly negative and dont add new info.
The mutations are mostly neutral and the idea that mutation does not add new information doesn't work as an argument. It has examined many times and the idea simply doesn't fly. I can discuss this if you wish but for now will just keep it as this.


Natural selection works for creatures to change to adapt to their environment.
True and if those changes are genetic then may well pass on to the descendents so those changes will then be in the gene pool.


But it is limited to what is already there. what is already in the gene pool.
This is where you get into trouble. Mutations are changes to what is already there so in the next generation what is already there is different from the previous generation. That is why evolution can be defined as changes in the gene pool of a population over time.

So a bird can change its beak but it cannot turn into a fish.
True but that bird population can change into a somewhat different bird population and the process goes on and on.

Evolution is really simple and pretty much inevitable is you have three factors operating

1) Variation of traits in replication- This is where mutations come in.

2)Heritability of the traits-this is the key.

3) Differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment-AKA Natural Selection.

That's it. If you have this, you will have evolution as long as life exists and we have found no limit to how far this process can go. This is what explains the diversity of life we find on Earth.

Dizredux
 
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Well then I pity you as you will never be open to what can be beyond what you see. When you love someone do you know they will be faithful. Do you have the evidence. No you trust them and you have this connection that tells you that you are at one with each other. It cant be broken down and analyzed. It has no mathematical equation, you just know. There are little reassurances you have that tell you that you are not being deceived and that trust is what builds your bond and connection. If you try to get that evidence and distrust it for no good reason then you will lose it. So not everything is built on evidence.
Of course you don't know they will be faithful all you have is their words and their actions that tell you they will,
they show you and they tell you what more can they do? that in itself is "evidence".
This is the very essence of a faith in God. You just dont blindly trust. You have a relationship with God which is evidenced in you on a daily basis. Just like a relationship with another you will be reassured and there will be signs that everything is OK. It manifests itself in your life and produces results that give you that reassurance. This is the holy spirit at work in your life. It has been working in peoples lives and changing them for the better and giving them the strength to achieve many things beyond what they thought impossible.
Your partners love for you is nothing like your faith in a God, please tell me what part of your relationship with God is evidenced "on a daily basis"? those are just meaningless words unless you can tell me what that "evidence" is.
You have been told there is a "holy spirit" at work in your life, what exactly does that mean? is it an imaginary spirit that works within you giving you the feeling that you can achieve anything? have you ever thought that spirit could be "coming from you" and not "coming into you"? you are perhaps giving credit to something that does not deserve it, you after all are the one doing the imagining and the believing.
But it isn't in the man made things of this world or the material wealth. It isn't in the physical and takes a faith and trust to find it. You cant analyze it and yet it makes more sense than anything that can be put forward as an answer to mans problems in this world. Just like people think that we humans have all the answers and capabilities to solve everything in this world we cant. Just like science will not solve all mans problems either. We will find that as we go on the more we reject God and rely on ourselves the more we will fail.
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”
Forget the material world because that will mean nothing when you're dead, this is the only life you are going to get and trying to fool yourself into believing you are going to get another is a big mistake.
The more you reject God the more you are able to stand on your own two feet, you were not born with sin so there is nothing you need repent for, they are telling you lies, you are a good person who has nothing to ask forgiveness for so tell them where they can stick their sin.
 
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stevevw

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So you're not impressed by tiktaalik?
I/m Impressed that it is an ancient creature that once walked this earth. But we are looking back on a fossil of a creature. It is not here for us to examine and test. So what can we say definitely about it one way or the other. For every evidence you can submit for evolution someone can also put forward other reasons as well that can show it is just one of the many creatures that use to walk this earth. Other questions would be why do we still have amphibians and walking fish. I thought this feat was already accomplished. Why cant this just be evidence that there are amphibian type creatures that just happen to be like a half fishy type creature thats part of the family of frogs and Mexican walking fish and salamanders and all those other weird creatures.

I mean who said it even crawled out of the water onto land and became a land dwelling animal. It looks like a flat head fish even. Where are all the other intermediates that would have occurred to gradually evolve it to a full four legged and toed animal. What we have is a finned fish without legs and toes. We should have other stages showing the legs and toes gradually changing. Or did the legs suddenly occur in one generation. Iean if scientists can glean so much info from an ancient fossil about its bone structures and how it walked and moved its head then they would also have other fossils of the other stages of creatures where they moved a bit more and then a bit more gradually evolving into a fully fledged land animal. But what we have like most of the other so called transitions is a complete finned possible amphibian type creature and thats it until we get a complete four legged and toes land walking creature and nothing in between again. Just like Archaeopteryx who isnt even classed as a bird anymore.

Besides that foot prints were found of a tetrapod 20 millions years before tiktaalik was even suppose to exit the water as a land animal. So this already brings into question their position.

Discovery pushes back date of first four-legged animal : Nature News
 
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Mr Strawberry

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I/m Impressed that it is an ancient creature that once walked this earth. But we are looking back on a fossil of a creature. It is not here for us to examine and test. So what can we say definitely about it one way or the other. For every evidence you can submit for evolution someone can also put forward other reasons as well that can show it is just one of the many creatures that use to walk this earth.

So you have no opinion on whether tiktaalik has both fish and land dwelling characteristics and why this might be significant?

Besides that foot prints were found of a tetrapod 20 millions years before tiktaalik was even suppose to exit the water as a land animal. So this already brings into question their position.

How would older tetrapod footprints change the importance of what tiktaalik represents?
 
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CabVet

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Because I dont believe there is any real evidence for that.

Evidence requires no belief. Speaking of evidence, have you ever looked at it and understood it?

They are all real but they dont mean that it allows animals to change from one creature into a totally new one.

Evolution doesn't predict that either.


That goes beyond the point of the evidence as far as I can see. Mutations happen but they are limited to changes within what is already there.

That is what evolution says.

They are mainly negative and dont add new info.

That is simply not true. If you "believe" that, you simply have not looked or ignored the evidence.


Natural selection works for creatures to change to adapt to their environment. But it is limited to what is already there. what is already in the gene pool.

Again, that is what evolution says.

So a bird can change its beak but it cannot turn into a fish.

Only a deity can turn a bird into a fish, and if that were to happen, evolution would be disproved. I am sorry to say this, but evolution is not what you think it is.
 
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CabVet

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So you have no opinion on whether tiktaalik has both fish and land dwelling characteristics and why this might be significant?

The problem is much more basic than that, take a look at the post above. He seems to think that evolution is birds giving birth to fishes.
 
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AV1611VET

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Only a deity can turn a bird into a fish, and if that were to happen, evolution would be disproved.
So if a deity turned someone's pet parakeet into a goldfish, all of evolution would be disproved?

Not.
 
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CabVet

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So if a deity turned someone's pet parakeet into a goldfish, all of evolution would be disproved?

Not.

Yes, it would.

Edit: unless, of course, you are changing the definition of evolution again. Just FYI, in this context we are talking about evolution as the process that originated the diversity of life in this planet.
 
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Yes, it would.
Well ... as I'm fond of saying ... in my opinion, pwning evolution is a privilege reserved for Jesus Christ.

Apparently He has already done it.

Exodus 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

Perhaps scientists didn't get the memo?

Edit: Plant life to animal life (and back again), you can't get more diverse than that, can you?
 
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CabVet

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Well ... as I'm fond of saying ... in my opinion, pwning evolution is a privilege reserved for Jesus Christ.

Apparently He has already done it.

Exodus 7:10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

Perhaps scientists didn't get the memo?

:doh: Perhaps scientists require evidence, and your "memo" certainly isn't any. But that's just a detail.
 
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:doh: Perhaps scientists require evidence,
Pulling rank on my point?

Fair enough, two can play that game:

Evidence can take a hike. God said it, that settles it.
 
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If that is the case, why did you have to google god (not Jesus) transforming things into animals?
I didn't have to Google it, it was the first thing I thought of.

In fact, I've used that example before:
I know God can --- and has --- turned Acacia arabia into Naja naja and back again --- all in a matter of moments!
 
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