Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[JLB777]

Abraham was not blessed among all generations.

Without Abraham, there is no Mary, and no Jesus Christ.


Here is what The Lord Jesus, before He became flesh, said of Abraham: And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Genesis 12:3

Mary is blessed because of Abraham.

She is among "all families" of the earth.


JLB

 

[seashale76]

But you don't understand what this means, you have to look at more than just one verse.
1 Thessalonians. 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
Explain how you rise, if you're alive with Christ...

I already posted all the verses on death/sleep numerous times, I'll start upsetting everyone here if I keep doing it, so look it up, search google for "death as sleep in the Bible"

I've obviously looked at more than one verse- and I understand them. You've obviously not read the verses I've posted though. Go do that and then get back with me. I think they're worth reading. I'll even not place them in the quote tab this time. You recall where you questioned my stating that our God is the God of the living and not the dead? Look at the scriptures that state that, if you will. This insistence of believers in Christ being dead is alarming to me.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

 

[seashale76]

All believers are alive in Christ. That's no reason to be praying to any of them. Remember--there is ONE mediator between us and the father, and that is His son, Jesus Christ.

Anytime you ask someone else to pray for you, you're praying to them, did you realize? That's called a supplication.

 

[Bryan G]

If you know the scriptures, then you know that our God is the God of the living and not the dead. Christ defeated sin and death. Those who die in Christ are alive. They're not dead. If you're claiming the saints are dead, then you're calling God a liar.

You are right, I had to asked a friend of mine that knows the Bible better than me, and then I looked it up to make sure, and I have to admit, I was wrong about the saints.
Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Here are the saints you speak of, they were dead and in the grave but were brought to heaven when Jesus died on the cross. Only a few people went to heaven in the Bible, Elijah, Enoch and these saints. Also possibly Moses and Abraham but the Bible is not to detailed on them.
I think I said this before, I'm always learning. I try my best not to speak of things I don't know. I try and stick to things I know and when something comes up I don't know, I study.

Christ defeated sin and death.

I didn't explain things good enough in my last post. Death is what will happen to sinners. This brings in another false teaching of most churches, eternal suffering is confused with suffering eternally. We can look at most peoples favorite verse for this answer,
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
It says perish, how can anyone perish if they spend forever in hell?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This can't mean that when we sin, we die, because then we'd all be dead, for all have sinned.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
This makes 2 points, first, only those who believes in the Son will have eternal life, not the condemned, if there was eternal life in hell, then this verse would make no sense, the only ones that will live eternally are the ones saved. Second, this shows that we will not be raised up until the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
Death comes from sin, not eternity in hell.

Here is a good way to look at it. Prisons will be on this earth until the earth is destroyed, until the end of time. This doesn't mean that people in prison will be there until the end of time. The prison is permanent, not the prison sentence. Just like God's punishment is eternal, but the punishing is not. The eternal fire means the fire is eternal, but not the burning. People that will suffer the eternal fire will be burned up and be gone "For the wages of sin is death".

Are you understanding the difference between life and death? Alive in Christ means that after Christ returns, you will get the gift of eternal life, it does not mean we never die. We are mortal, immortality comes after judgment, after Christ returns. We all have that gift, Jesus is waiting to give us that gift when he returns, but some will lose that gift, actually many will lose that gift because they'll choose not to follow Christ, we see them everyday.

I haven't brought this into the conversation because it's a huge subject on its own, but eternal life or death, is all we get, there is no forever and ever for the ones who don't make it to heaven.
So, the fact that Christ defeated death only means, when Christ returns, some will get life, and some death, those who believe in Jesus and follow his teachings will have life, for them death is defeated. The suffering will be different for each according to what they deserve:
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
If the punishment for the unsaved is according to their deeds, then how can everyone spend the same time in the same hell?
Here is an example I love to use:
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Are they still burning today? No, they were burned up, to ashes, they do not exist, this is what will happen to the unsaved, the eternal fire will burn them up, and they will be no more.

This goes along with the reason I think catholics use Mary and the saints, they are afraid of God, because they are taught the lie of suffering eternally, and that is a false teaching. No God of love would make anyone suffer for hundreds of thousand of years, just to let them know, that's only the beginning, it will never end. That would be a cruel God. Even Hitler, doesn't deserve to suffer forever, there is a time when he will have paid the price and die, eternally. This is why catholics are so afraid of God and spend much of their life with fear, they fear eternally suffering. Once someone learns the truth, they are set free.
I'm sorry, I am long winded, but I can't see anything I want to take out of this, so I'm posting it all.

 

[seashale76]

Because something is in scripture does not give one carte blanche to pluck it out of its context and give an entirely new spin.

New? Hardly. Out of context? It's not that either. I hate to say this, but I see a trend out there intent on ignoring scripture as much as possible, even to the point of denying scripture. Too may are fond of denying scripture outright to absolve themselves of uncomfortable truths.

 

[seashale76]

You are right, I had to asked a friend of mine that knows the Bible better than me, and then I looked it up to make sure, and I have to admit, I was wrong about the saints.
Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Here are the saints you speak of, they were dead and in the grave but were brought to heaven when Jesus died on the cross. Only a few people went to heaven in the Bible, Elijah, Enoch and these saints. Also possibly Moses and Abraham but the Bible is not to detailed on them.
I think I said this before, I'm always learning. I try my best not to speak of things I don't know. I try and stick to things I know and when something comes up I don't know, I study.

I didn't explain things good enough in my last post. Death is what will happen to sinners. This brings in another false teaching of most churches, eternal suffering is confused with suffering eternally. We can look at most peoples favorite verse for this answer,
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
It says perish, how can anyone perish if they spend forever in hell?
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This can't mean that when we sin, we die, because then we'd all be dead, for all have sinned.
John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
This makes 2 points, first, only those who believes in the Son will have eternal life, not the condemned, if there was eternal life in hell, then this verse would make no sense, the only ones that will live eternally are the ones saved. Second, this shows that we will not be raised up until the last day.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
Death comes from sin, not eternity in hell.

Here is a good way to look at it. Prisons will be on this earth until the earth is destroyed, until the end of time. This doesn't mean that people in prison will be there until the end of time. The prison is permanent, not the prison sentence. Just like God's punishment is eternal, but the punishing is not. The eternal fire means the fire is eternal, but not the burning. People that will suffer the eternal fire will be burned up and be gone "For the wages of sin is death".

Are you understanding the difference between life and death? Alive in Christ means that after Christ returns, you will get the gift of eternal life, it does not mean we never die. We are mortal, immortality comes after judgment, after Christ returns. We all have that gift, Jesus is waiting to give us that gift when he returns, but some will lose that gift, actually many will lose that gift because they'll choose not to follow Christ, we see them everyday.

I haven't brought this into the conversation because it's a huge subject on its own, but eternal life or death, is all we get, there is no forever and ever for the ones who don't make it to heaven.
So, the fact that Christ defeated death only means, when Christ returns, some will get life, and some death, those who believe in Jesus and follow his teachings will have life, for them death is defeated. The suffering will be different for each according to what they deserve:
Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
If the punishment for the unsaved is according to their deeds, then how can everyone spend the same time in the same hell?
Here is an example I love to use:
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Are they still burning today? No, they were burned up, to ashes, they do not exist, this is what will happen to the unsaved, the eternal fire will burn them up, and they will be no more.

This goes along with the reason I think catholics use Mary and the saints, they are afraid of God, because they are taught the lie of suffering eternally, and that is a false teaching. No God of love would make anyone suffer for hundreds of thousand of years, just to let them know, that's only the beginning, it will never end. That would be a cruel God. Even Hitler, doesn't deserve to suffer forever, there is a time when he will have paid the price and die, eternally. This is why catholics are so afraid of God and spend much of their life with fear, they fear eternally suffering. Once someone learns the truth, they are set free.
I'm sorry, I am long winded, but I can't see anything I want to take out of this, so I'm posting it all.

I think you're somewhat under the misconception that due to prayers of the saints that Orthodox and Catholics don't also pray directly to the Holy Trinity. We very much do. I invite you to come to any Divine Liturgy, Matins, or Vespers in an Orthodox Church and witness it for yourself. However, just as we were exhorted in 1 Timothy 2 to pray for all men, this is also applied to the saints- as all are alive in Christ. All are part of Christ's Church. To deny this simple truth is to deny that Christ Is Who He Is.

 

[Bryan G]

I've obviously looked at more than one verse- and I understand them. You've obviously not read the verses I've posted though. Go do that and then get back with me. I think they're worth reading. I'll even not place them in the quote tab this time. You recall where you questioned my stating that our God is the God of the living and not the dead? Look at the scriptures that state that, if you will. This insistence of believers in Christ being dead is alarming to me.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

What is this, did you just post random verses to make it look like you are actually posting something? Hebrews 12:1, Luke 15:7, Hebrews 12:22-23, Revelation 8:3, Revelation 11:16-18, Revelation 5:8-10, Revelation 21:27 have nothing to do with the subject at all.
Then most of the other verse prove what I said:
John 6:47-51 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This verse does not say anything other than when Jesus returns we will have everlasting life, it doesn't say that when we die we go to heaven, it just says we will get eternal life.
John 5:25-29 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live
This verse says what I said, the hour is coming, it's not here yet.
John 11:23-27 “Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’
Again, this verse backs me up, it clearly says on the last day.
John 8:51 “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”
This verse doesn't change a thing, it means you won't see death after Christ returns, because people that were saved 1,000 years ago are not still walking the earth. This says nothing about the actual subject.
Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
This verse doesn't disprove anything.

You actually helped prove what I was saying, I don't think you even read what you posted.

 

[seashale76]

What is this, did you just post random verses to make it look like you are actually posting something? Hebrews 12:1, Luke 15:7, Hebrews 12:22-23, Revelation 8:3, Revelation 11:16-18, Revelation 5:8-10, Revelation 21:27 have nothing to do with the subject at all.
Then most of the other verse prove what I said:
John 6:47-51 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This verse does not say anything other than when Jesus returns we will have everlasting life, it doesn't say that when we die we go to heaven, it just says we will get eternal life.
John 5:25-29 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live
This verse says what I said, the hour is coming, it's not here yet.
John 11:23-27 “Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’
Again, this verse backs me up, it clearly says on the last day.
John 8:51 “Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”
This verse doesn't change a thing, it means you won't see death after Christ returns, because people that were saved 1,000 years ago are not still walking the earth. This says nothing about the actual subject.
Matthew 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
This verse doesn't disprove anything.

You actually helped prove what I was saying, I don't think you even read what you posted.

Because you totally didn't say I was wrong about that earlier? I posted those verses in the context of a very detailed post way back on page 17 (post #333). I posted them again- as they are being continually ignored. And- yes- I've read them many times. These verses have to do with the saints being alive in Christ, the prayers of saints, and how they are a cloud of witnesses. There's lots of denial and evasion around here. It's attempt to obfuscate and ignore what has really been said in order to hold to your own position.

The point is- the saints of the Church- just like those sitting next to you in Church- will pray for you if asked to do so. The saints aren't dead. Scripture supports that they're not.

To bring it all back full circle. Way too many people on this board in numerous threads do not and have not called Mary blessed. In fact, many on this board have called her nothing special and just another woman no better than them. She gave birth to God, so I'd say she'd have to be holy (literally a consecrated vessel like the ark of the covenant). She is THE Christian we should all look to as an example regarding theosis. If Christ couldn't save his own mother, then who could He save? I ask you that. Who we say the Theotokos is is directly related to who we say Christ is. Her very existence points us to Christ- and her prayers are efficacious in this endeavor as well.

 

[Fireinfolding]

To the original post, here is what I see

So Mary says" from henceforth all generations" shall call ME (singularly so) blessed . Even as it was her womb that bare Jesus Christ as it was her paps which did give him suck (and of the same that "certain woman" did come forward to bless).

Jesus didnt respond back with an Amen, you said it sista'! But he said, Yea rather blessed are THEY (in more of the plural sense) that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Jesus seems to divert the woman's attention from lifting up her voice in respects to the singular vessel (as was Mary) who brought him forth and calling her blessed (in a singular sense) but Jesus responded, "Yea rather blessed are" They" (in the plural sense) that hear the word of God and keep it.

Sounds as if the woman's focus was off.

Could be womb worship

 

[Bryan G]

I think you're somewhat under the misconception that due to prayers of the saints that Orthodox and Catholics don't also pray directly to the Holy Trinity. We very much do. I invite you to come to any Divine Liturgy, Matins, or Vespers in an Orthodox Church and witness it for yourself. However, just as we were exhorted in 1 Timothy 2 to pray for all men, this is also applied to the saints- as all are alive in Christ. All are part of Christ's Church. To deny this simple truth is to deny that Christ Is Who He Is.

I don't know much about the Orthodox, but I do have many ex-catholic friends and some that still practice.
I see nothing in the Bible that says anything about praying to anyone except God, as Jesus told us to in the sermon on the mount.
I agree, the saints are alive, the Bible clearly shows this, but it also explains how, when Jesus died the graves opened and so on. But it does not say we are to pray to them, or have them pray for us. It shows they are praying for all of us already.
Alive in Christ doesn't mean that we go to heaven when we die, because as the verses you posted and the verse I posted make it clear, we will meet up with Christ when he returns.
When someone went to heaven after death, it was mentioned in the Bible, because it was out of the ordinary. If everyone did this, then there would be no need to make it a special thing in God's word.

 

[Bryan G]

Because you totally didn't say I was wrong about that earlier? I posted those verses in the context of a very detailed post way back on page 17 (post #333). I posted them again- as they are being continually ignored. And- yes- I've read them many times. These verses have to do with the saints being alive in Christ, the prayers of saints, and how they are a cloud of witnesses. There's lots of denial and evasion around here. It's attempt to obfuscate and ignore what has really been said in order to hold to your own position.

The point is- the saints of the Church- just like those sitting next to you in Church- will pray for you if asked to do so. The saints aren't dead. Scripture supports that they're not.

To bring it all back full circle. Way too many people on this board in numerous threads do not and have not called Mary blessed. In fact, many on this board have called her nothing special and just another woman no better than them. She gave birth to God, so I'd say she'd have to be holy (literally a consecrated vessel like the ark of the covenant). She is THE Christian we should all look to as an example regarding theosis. If Christ couldn't save his own mother, then who could He save? I ask you that. Who we say the Theotokos is is directly related to who we say Christ is. Her very existence points us to Christ- and her prayers are efficacious in this endeavor as well.

I just don't see how they are relevant, but I'll read them all again, and with what you said, I'll try and see if I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[JLB777]

The eternal fire means the fire is eternal, but not the burning. People that will suffer the eternal fire will be burned up and be gone "For the wages of sin is death".

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”Revelation 14:9-11


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;


Sure looks like someone is burning forever and ever, if the smoke from them being tormented with fire continues to ascend forever and ever.



JLB

 

[Bryan G]

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”Revelation 14:9-11


He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever;


Sure looks like someone is burning forever and ever, if the smoke from them being tormented with fire continues to ascend forever and ever.



JLB

Doesn't look that way to me, where does is say "someone"? I see that the smoke ascends forever, but I see nothing that says anyone will be tormented forever. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you can't just assume. The smoke ascends. Picture this, someone smoking a cigarette, they blow out the smoke and it goes up to the ceiling, does that mean it's still coming out of his mouth? The smoke from the tormented goes up and up, till you can't see it, but it keeps going up, even after the torment is over, even after the smokes stops coming from them, but the smoke that came from them just keeps ascending. This is just as plausible as what you think.

There is scripture that is clear. Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? This says 'Just as Sodom and Gomorrah", this is to show us what the eternal fire does, this is an example of what will happen to the people who go against God. They will burn up, as Sodom and Gomorrah, and they will perish.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Then, with your way of looking at judgment, how can you explain this:
Romans 2:2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
If each is judged according to what they've done, then how can the torment be eternal?

There is just 2 of many examples, that are clear, no assumption needed.

 

[Meowzltov]

All believers are alive in Christ. That's no reason to be praying to any of them. Remember--there is ONE mediator between us and the father, and that is His son, Jesus Christ.

I DO ask all believers to pray for me to God through Christ.

 

[Meowzltov]

That certainly does jive with the fact that Catholics pray to Mary, when Christ is the only mediator between us and God the Father.

Mary's intercessions for us when she prays to God through Christ no more usurp Jesus' uniqueness as mediator than OUR intercessions in prayer to God through Christ.

 

[Meowzltov]

Scripture is very specific about the dead. The dead in that they are no longer living their human lives on earth.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:25

 

[Meowzltov]

Without Abraham, there is no Mary, and no Jesus Christ.


Here is what The Lord Jesus, before He became flesh, said of Abraham: And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” Genesis 12:3

Mary is blessed because of Abraham.

She is among "all families" of the earth.


JLB

The blessing that Abraham brought us was not Jesus Christ but the Mosaic Covenant, and through it, blessing the world with ethical monotheism.

The blessing Mary brought us was Jesus himself, and through him, salvation, DIRECTLY, through her yes.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Yeah, and here Jesus specifies an agreement between those on earth more specifically concerning something that they shall ask for in that agreement as well

Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

The apostles even ask the brethren (on earth) to pray for them

2 Thes 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 Thes 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Here he also directed the brethren (on earth) to pray to God (not another) for him

Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

Romans 15:21 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

 

[JLB777]

Doesn't look that way to me, where does is say "someone"?

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:9-11

Anyone, his, he himself, he, they, their, whoever... are all references to people.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

The blessing that Abraham brought us was not Jesus Christ but the Mosaic Covenant, and through it, blessing the world with ethical monotheism.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Abraham was the first member of the covenant that we have been grafted into.

Abraham walked with the Lord Jesus, before He became flesh.


...for what does it say -


And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed. Genesis 12:3


and again


8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


and again


16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. Galatians 3:16



The Abrahamic Covenant was established through Abraham.

The law was added 430 years later, until the Seed should come and abolish it in His flesh.

Now the Abrahamic Covenant has become the New Covenant.


Abraham was not under the law of Moses.



JLB