LDS Why don't Mormon missionaries hand out the tripple combination?

Rescued One

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Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

Then there are the temple worthy Mormons who are worthier that the other Mormons.

  1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
  2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
  3. Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
  4. Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
  5. Do you live the law of chastity?
  6. Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
  7. Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
  8. Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
  9. Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
  10. Are you a full-tithe payer?
  11. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
  12. Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
  13. If you have previously received your temple endowment: 1) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? 2) Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
  14. Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
  15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?Question: What are the worthiness requirements to enter a Mormon temple? - FairMormon
Drinking tea or coffee means you are unworthy.
 
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Thomas1987

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When you meet them ask them how does Adam produce so many babies .
According to them Adam gives each person on this earth soul so every 1,5-2s he has to have sex with Eve in heaven or maybe they never stop .

In short people will believe what they will there are tons of cults don't try to find logic in that just show them that they are wrong and leave because it's waste of time .
 
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Jane_Doe

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When you meet them ask them how does Adam produce so many babies .
According to them Adam gives each person on this earth soul so every 1,5-2s he has to have sex with Eve in heaven or maybe they never stop .
Actually, that's not LDS beliefs at all.
In short people will believe what they will there are tons of cults don't try to find logic in that just show them that they are wrong and leave because it's waste of time .
I prefer to just see individuals as individuals, understand them and love them.
 
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Rescued One

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When you meet them ask them how does Adam produce so many babies .
According to them Adam gives each person on this earth soul so every 1,5-2s he has to have sex with Eve in heaven or maybe they never stop .

In short people will believe what they will there are tons of cults don't try to find logic in that just show them that they are wrong and leave because it's waste of time .

That's inaccurate information. I guess that's why you posted no legitimate source of information.
 
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Rescued One

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I love people of all faiths and people of no faith. I love God even more.

1 John 4
19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You DON'T agree that talking about Christ is the first and most important thing?
Call me dumbfounded.

Well If all you had was 10 minutes to talk with someone, what do you think is more important than Christ?

(I'll address rest of your post in a moment, I'm really dumbfounded and can't mentally move past this declaration of yours)

With LDS with only a few minutes, I think it is more important to point out that Christ says in Matthew 16, "upon this rock, I will build my Church, and not even the gates of Hell can overcome it" thus proving there was no great Apostasy. If they quote a verse back, then have them read the chapter out loud in context because the context often refutes LDS claims.

Also, to all non LDS here, try emailing the LDS church requesting a complete set to see what the response will really be. I am guessing most people do not know there is a combo set.
 
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Rescued One

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With LDS with only a few minutes, I think it is more important to point out that Christ says in Matthew 16, "upon this rock, I will build my Church, and not even the gates of Hell can overcome it" thus proving there was no great Apostasy. If they quote a verse back, then have them read the chapter out loud in context because the context often refutes LDS claims.

Also, to all non LDS here, try emailing the LDS church requesting a complete set to see what the response will really be. I am guessing most people do not know there is a combo set.

Mormons know about the sets.

The LDS who post here don't seem to be influenced by Matthew 16; their beliefs are deeply ingrained in their minds.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So... to be clear: you agree that Christ is the most important topic, and if you only have 10 minutes to talk to someone He's the most important and logical topic to discuss.

Correct?

Other then pointing out there is another Jesus, antichrists, and false Christs, false prophets. I am not able to limit Jesus to ten minutes. But, I am able to limit Matthew 16, upon this rock to the time limit.
 
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tampasteve

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With LDS with only a few minutes, I think it is more important to point out that Christ says in Matthew 16, "upon this rock, I will build my Church, and not even the gates of Hell can overcome it" thus proving there was no great Apostasy.

I have never found that to be a particularly strong argument, it can be interpreted as that Hell did not overcome as the church re-emerged, went into hiding, etc. Also, many protestant groups make similar claims about the faith apostatizing before the Reformation, before a particular teacher, etc.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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So... you consider debating the NWT to be more important than talking about Christ??? Are you not a disciple of Christ?

You need to reread his post. It makes a lot of sense because of doublespeak on LDS mindsets.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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10 minutes with a JW, I use Isaiah 14 because it refutes their claim that the dead are unconscious. The text in context is about the King of Babylon going to the place of the dead.

Isaiah 14:4-22 Good News Translation (GNT)
4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:

“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!

9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”

12 A)" data-cr="#cen-GNT-20936A" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">King of Babylon, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven! In the past you conquered nations, but now you have been thrown to the ground. 13 B)" data-cr="#cen-GNT-20937B" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: 0.625em; line-height: 22px; position: relative; vertical-align: top; top: 0px;">You were determined to climb up to heaven and to place your throne above the highest stars. You thought you would sit like a king on that mountain in the north where the gods assemble. 14 You said you would climb to the tops of the clouds and be like the Almighty. 15 But instead, you have been brought down to the deepest part of the world of the dead.

16 The dead will stare and gape at you. They will ask, “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble? 17 Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?”

18 All the kings of the earth lie in their magnificent tombs, 19 but you have no tomb, and your corpse is thrown out to rot. It is covered by the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, thrown with them into a rocky pit, and trampled down. 20 Because you ruined your country and killed your own people, you will not be buried like other kings. None of your evil family will survive. 21 Let the slaughter begin! The sons of this king will die because of their ancestors' sins. None of them will ever rule the earth or cover it with cities.

God Will Destroy Babylon
22 The Lord Almighty says, “I will attack Babylon and bring it to ruin. I will leave nothing—no children, no survivors at all. I, the Lord, have spoken.
 
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Ironhold

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With LDS with only a few minutes, I think it is more important to point out that Christ says in Matthew 16, "upon this rock, I will build my Church, and not even the gates of Hell can overcome it" thus proving there was no great Apostasy. If they quote a verse back, then have them read the chapter out loud in context because the context often refutes LDS claims.

Also, to all non LDS here, try emailing the LDS church requesting a complete set to see what the response will really be. I am guessing most people do not know there is a combo set.

How closely have you actually studied LDS theology?

In Dante's "Inferno", we read that after the Crucifixion, an angel came down to Hell and tore the gates clean off of their hinges. Once that happened, those souls awaiting atonement now had a chance to escape Hell's domain.

I bring this up because it's a reasonable illustration for what LDS theology is. You see, LDS theology holds that the gates of Hell refers to Hell's ability to have hold over those who sin. With the Atonement, Hell no longer has sole claim over those who sin. Repentance is now an option, and so those who error can receive forgiveness and thus be free of Hell's grasp.

As such, the gates have *not* been able to overcome.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I have never found that to be a particularly strong argument, it can be interpreted as that Hell did not overcome as the church re-emerged, went into hiding, etc. Also, many protestant groups make similar claims about the faith apostatizing before the Reformation, before a particular teacher, etc.

It becomes more powerful when they quote from I or II Thess and you point out from context that it is not a total apostasy. Also, you need to point out if the church went into a total apostasy for 1800 years or so, then that would make Jesus a liar or false prophet.

Also, if the Apostle John remains alive as the BOM teaches below, then total apostasy is a silly claim.

Matthew 16:16-18 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father who is in Heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Third Nephi
The Book of Nephi
the Son of Nephi, Who Was the Son of Helaman
Chapter 28
Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye desire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?

2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.

3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are seventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my kingdom; and with me ye shall find rest.

4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.

10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

11 And the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.

12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.

19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.

20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.

21 And thrice they were cast into a furnace and received no harm.

22 And twice were they cast into a den of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.

23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus.

24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time.

25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.

26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.

27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.

28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.

29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them.

30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.

33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an offended God, who hath been trampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?

36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—

37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.
 
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tampasteve

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It becomes more powerful when they quote from I or II Thess and you point out from context that it is not a total apostasy. Also, you need to point out if the church went into a total apostasy for 1800 years or so, then that would make Jesus a liar or false prophet.

Jesus also said that he was coming back soon (REV 22:12) and it's been 2,000 years (give or take), so an apostasy of 1800 years or so isn't that outlandish. Being as Jesus cannot be a liar and we still have a faith to hold, time must take a different dimension when we are speaking of spiritual things. I am not LDS so I do not agree with that viewpoint, but I do think that the argument is not as clear cut as it seems.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Jesus also said that he was coming back soon (REV 22:12) and it's been 2,000 years (give or take), so an apostasy of 1800 years or so isn't that outlandish. Being as Jesus cannot be a liar and we still have a faith to hold, time must take a different dimension when we are speaking of spiritual things. I am not LDS so I do not agree with that viewpoint, but I do think that the argument is not as clear cut as it seems.
100% agreed. I still sandby, if I only have 10 minutes to talk to someone about my faith, I'm simply going to talk about Christ, cause He is my Lord and King, and the most important topic.
 
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dzheremi

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"We believe in one God, God the Father the Pantocrator who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, according to the scriptures, ascended to the heavens; He sits at the right hand of his Father, and He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen."

I don't know how long it takes to say that, but certainly not ten minutes, so with the extra time we can get into the details of what all the above means, if the person is inclined to ask about them. If not, then it is a clear enough statement on its own, having stood for over 1600 years and withstood all schisms subsequent to it, and all ancient and modern movements which have sought to affirm their own beliefs by their own statements (e.g., the various Arian or semi-Arian creeds). Perhaps then we can get into why it is so important to have these kinds of statements in the first place, i.e., what in Christian history compelled our fathers of the early Christian Church to seek this consensus about what was within the bounds of what they had received from the apostles and the disciples and what was not. Mormonism (or JW, or whatever it is we may encounter) has its own beliefs, so it is good and healthy to contrast and compare these, as our fathers did when challenged by the 'new' movements which sought to supersede what has been established by the ancient witness to Christ in the land of His birth, and nearby places such as Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece, and the adjacent Levant (Lebanon, 'Syria', etc).

The challenge with this approach is of course that you are dealing with restorationists in the Mormon religion and these other movements for whom history is somewhat more fungible than it is for those who do not accept the central premise of restorationism -- namely that the Church went away, or astray, or somehow became something other than what it was meant to be under the influence of this or that force. Such movements typically point to Constantine or other Roman emperors, or early church leaders and councils as sources of 'corruption' or 'apostasy', somehow glossing over the presence of what could at least fairly be called the proto-council of Jerusalem, recorded in the Acts of the apostles.

Knowing that, it is only fair that we point out that this is an entirely Biblical state of affairs (obviously, as Acts is in the Bible), and that if it can be shown that this model was followed in councils immediately following the age of the Apostles and Disciples that dealt with the idea of the Church being or needing to be superseded (and it was, at the synod held c. 177 AD at which the bishop HG Apollinaris of Hierapolis in Phrygia presided which led to the condemnation of Montanus and his followers of the so-called 'New Prophecy'), then it is by no means a sign of 'apostasy' that we should continue in the same mode in the second, third, and fourth century (and later, for those who accept Chalcedon and the following councils).

Mormons et al. can disagree with this all they want, but disagreement cannot change what has already happened. That's a matter of the historical record, and while there certainly can be and are differing perspectives and biases that go into the reading of that history (i.e., the Nestorians' rejection of the Council of Ephesus, or my own Oriental Orthodox communion's rejection of the Council of Chalcedon), people on all sides of things can still look at primary source documents and secondary commentaries and decide according to whatever metric they choose what is of God and what is not.

To deny the historicity of early Christianity is another matter entirely, however, and I suspect this why Mormons and others who embrace restorationism are taught the alternate (a)historical narratives that they are essentially forced to embrace in order to give their movements a reason for being: because obviously if the Church has a real, continued, and continuing historical existence, then anyone who comes along later in 607 (Muhammad/Islam), 1830 (Joseph Smith/Mormonism), etc. can easily be refuted by the fact that what they say happened, or what they say this or that piece of scripture or revelation means, etc. is shown to be false and to have been false before they even 'received' it or began preaching it.

So to dispute with restorationists and refute them is no big matter, as they will simply cling to their alternate history whereby something that, again, history establishes 100% did happen must have either not actually happened or not meant or signified what that same historical record says it meant and signified. You have to essentially upend their entire approach to the history of religion itself, which is a tall order when they are committed to their own view by which anything you bring is somehow evidence of their claims (e.g., the Councils are apostasy, or variations of the crucifixion account in the Gospels prove that it was a made-up story or whatever), rather than evidence of how thoroughly baseless those claims are.

Basically, we have history on our side and whoever may choose to believe in something else instead must do so with the advance knowledge that arguing from absence fatally damages their own case. In other words, that the Mormons argue that the 'true' Church was essentially Mormon or proto-Mormon before it was messed up (by whoever, whenever) and then taken away to be restored later is exactly what you'd expect them to say. But then when you ask for historical evidence of this and find the only parallels to their belief among heretics like Montanus and the believers in 'new prophecy' in Phrygia and other similar movements, you can say "Okay, we dealt with that in 177 -- over a millennia and a half before Joseph Smith would come to bring a 'restored' gospel." And then the fall-back position essentially becomes "I know the Church is true and the Joseph Smith is a true prophet." Fair enough, but that's a statement of belief, not an argument. Because there really is no evidence of proto-Mormonism in early Christianity, just like it's easy to show that the early Christians were not proto-Muslims (monotheists, sure, but Islam is not The Purest Monotheism Ever Ever™, and we will not reward you for the astounding ability to count to one, as though the actual content of the theology therefore does not matter), or any of this other stuff. Again, just study history. It's all in there. And against the consistent witness of 2,000 years with our Lord Jesus Christ, these latecomers have nothing, hence the heresies of the past are repackaged as 'new' revelations which everyone should follow. No thank you.

That which has been is what will be,
That which is done is what will be done,
And there is nothing new under the sun.


(Ecclesiastes 1:9)
 
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Rescued One

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10 minutes with a JW, I use Isaiah 14 because it refutes their claim that the dead are unconscious. The text in context is about the King of Babylon going to the place of the dead.

Mormons say people go to the spirit world between death and the resurrection. The spirit world consists of two parts: Paradise for the righteous and Spirit Prison (a temporary hell) for the rest. Those in Paradise will teach the [Mormon] gospel to those in the temporary hell.

Mormon Plan of Salvation boydsldsbooks.jpg
 
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Rescued One

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With LDS with only a few minutes, I think it is more important to point out that Christ says in Matthew 16, "upon this rock, I will build my Church, and not even the gates of Hell can overcome it" thus proving there was no great Apostasy. If they quote a verse back, then have them read the chapter out loud in context because the context often refutes LDS claims.

Also, to all non LDS here, try emailing the LDS church requesting a complete set to see what the response will really be. I am guessing most people do not know there is a combo set.

Mormons claim that the rock is revelation and because the people killed the apostles, the priesthood (authority to act for God and administer ordinances) was taken from the earth until Joseph Smith, Jr., came along.
 
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dzheremi

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Mormons claim that the rock is revelation and because the people killed the apostles, the priesthood (authority to act for God and administer ordinances) was taken from the earth until Joseph Smith, Jr., came along.

Even if we take that as a given for the sake of argument, St. John wasn't martyred, and his disciples St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp were both ordained by his hand as bishops of their territories (Antioch and Smyrna, respectively), sooo... :scratch:

I guess that authority went away everywhere but Antioch and Smyrna, then?
 
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