LDS Why don't Mormon missionaries hand out the tripple combination?

DW1980

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To understand what these quotes are saying takes a LOT of theological background.

The beginning point is that both you and I agree that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is a different person that the Father, but they are both ONE God together. There's only ONE God. Likewise the Holy Spirit is a different person than the Father & Son, and is likewise God. But there's still only ONE God. They are ONE.

A difference comes in when we talk about the *how* these multiple persons are ONE God. I'm guessing that you are an adherent of the Athanasian Creed. This document was written by a council of men 500 AD and states the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God through a shared substance.

I (and other LDS) am not adherent of the Creeds, and believe that theological Truth should comes from God via His prophets & apostles. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are ONE God through unity. One verse that particularly radiates with me is John 17:21 "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (Rest of the chapter rocks too).

Am I making sense thus far?

You are :)

I have heard the JWs use a similar argument, however I disagree. In John 17:21 Jesus is talking about Christian unity, a unity of purpose, which he obviously shares with the Father. But he's not saying we are God too, right? But he does make that claim for himself.

Jesus' claim to be God (not merely one in purpose with God) is clear from what the Jewish leaders understood him to be saying:
"We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:33) He then proceeds to use a typical Rabbinical style of argument from the lesser to the greater, to drive home the point (vs 34-39).
John 10 Commentary - Jesus Claims to Be the Messiah and to Be One with God - BibleGateway.com

John even states that this is what they understood, in John 5:18 it says, "For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." This is John telling us that Jesus made himself equal with God.

You say that you disagree with the Athanasian Creed, yet what you said above, at least on the surface, seems to be consistent with this:

...both you and I agree that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is a different person that the Father, but they are both ONE God together. There's only ONE God. Likewise the Holy Spirit is a different person than the Father & Son, and is likewise God. But there's still only ONE God. They are ONE.

So if you are not saying that you are a Trinitarian, could you clarify how you disagree with this? :)
 
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Jane_Doe

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I have heard the JWs use a similar argument, however I disagree.
I am no expert on JW beliefs, so I cannot comment on their beliefs. Besides, I would prefer to let a JW speak for themselves.
In John 17:21 Jesus is talking about Christian unity, a unity of purpose, which he obviously shares with the Father. But he's not saying we are God too, right? But he does make that claim for himself.
He wants us to be ONE with the Father, as He is. He commands us to be perfect even like the Father, and believer are described as a joint-heir with Christ.
Jesus' claim to be God (not merely one in purpose with God) is clear from what the Jewish leaders understood him to be saying:
"We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10:33) He then proceeds to use a typical Rabbinical style of argument from the lesser to the greater, to drive home the point (vs 34-39).
John 10 Commentary - Jesus Claims to Be the Messiah and to Be One with God - BibleGateway.com

John even states that this is what they understood, in John 5:18 it says, "For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." This is John telling us that Jesus made himself equal with God.
The rabbi's sure didn't get who Christ was.
You say that you disagree with the Athanasian Creed, yet what you said above, at least on the surface, seems to be consistent with this:



So if you are not saying that you are a Trinitarian, could you clarify how you disagree with this? :)
I agree with that part. The disagreement is with the parts about "essence" and "substance":

"...God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world... One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person... "

(There's also disagreement on the authority behind the Creed itself, but I got the impression you wanted to discuss the Creed's contents, not the authority)
 
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BigDaddy4

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One or two Mormons might complain that their priesthood manual quotes the Deseret News.
Which then would beg the question - is their church teaching and/or endorsing false doctrine in their official publications?
 
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Rescued One

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Which then would beg the question - is their church teaching and/or endorsing false doctrine in their official publications?
Or are they now in apostasy from the church Joseph Smith started?
 
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Rescued One

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Mormon scripture states that there are multiple gods:

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25,
Doctrine and Covenants 132

Doctrine and Covenants 132
16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

Some Mormons are not authorized to speak for their church.

Mormons believe that there are multiple Gods.

“People tell us, ‘You don’t believe in one God; you believe in three Gods.’ And the answer is, ‘Yes, we do.’ If that is polytheism then we are.”
Truman Madsen, BYU professor (emeritus), 150-Year- Old Debate: Are Mormons `Really Christian’? San Francisco Chronicle, April 8, 1996
 
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DW1980

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I am no expert on JW beliefs, so I cannot comment on their beliefs. Besides, I would prefer to let a JW speak for themselves.

He wants us to be ONE with the Father, as He is. He commands us to be perfect even like the Father, and believer are described as a joint-heir with Christ.

The rabbi's sure didn't get who Christ was.

I agree with that part. The disagreement is with the parts about "essence" and "substance":

"...God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world... One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person... "

(There's also disagreement on the authority behind the Creed itself, but I got the impression you wanted to discuss the Creed's contents, not the authority)

What do you see as the difference between substance and essence in this context?
 
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DW1980

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What is "substance" and "essence"? Where in the Bible does it describe God with those words? Where does it define these concepts?
lol - I was asking you!

Maybe it's the translation, my Church doesn't use that creed, I had to google it too! We do use the Apostles and Nicene creeds though. I think this is the part you are referring to:

Now the right faith is that we should believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is equally both God and man. He is God from the Father's substance, begotten before time; and he is man from this mother's substance, born in time. Perfect God, perfect man composed of a rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father in respect of his divinity, less than the Father in respect of his humanity.
 
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Jane_Doe

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lol - I was asking you!

Maybe it's the translation, my Church doesn't use that creed, I had to google it too! We do use the Apostles and Nicene creeds though. I think this is the part you are referring to:

Now the right faith is that we should believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is equally both God and man. He is God from the Father's substance, begotten before time; and he is man from this mother's substance, born in time. Perfect God, perfect man composed of a rational soul and human flesh, equal to the Father in respect of his divinity, less than the Father in respect of his humanity.
Frankly... my understanding of this concept is that it involves a lot of importing ideas from pagan philosophers (particularly Plato). I could go into it more, but I was wanting to give you the opportunity to explain your own beliefs and the Biblicalness of them. I really don't like it when people say "Sam you believe X and it's wrong because of Y", and was trying not to do that myself.
 
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DW1980

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Frankly... my understanding of this concept is that it involves a lot of importing ideas from pagan philosophers (particularly Plato). I could go into it more, but I was wanting to give you the opportunity to explain your own beliefs and the Biblicalness of them. I really don't like it when people say "Sam you believe X and it's wrong because of Y", and was trying not to do that myself.

I see, I have heard those theories too, I used to buy into them when I was an agnostic. However, that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Either way, I think we would agree that we need to look at what the Bible says?

I'm with you on telling people what they believe, which is why (hope you noticed!) I have tried to phrase this as questions, rather than "you believe" statements.

I believe that there is one God. He exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each fully God, each a distinct person. Because of the incarnation I believe Jesus is fully God and fully human.

This seems to be what you have said you believe, am I right? So, when I asked the missionaries about multiple gods, and God having a wife or wives, they said that was true. They also talked about their hope of becoming gods one day. Do you believe that? @Phoebe Ann gave some interesting quotes from LDS literature. Do you agree or disagree with those?

Another question - you kind of "dismissed" the quotes I found as not being canonical. Yet, some were given by leaders of your Church, whom I think you regard as all being prophets. So surely, regardless of whether they have been canonised, they carry authority if you believe they are prophets? Can you explain the thinking there? Can you openly and freely disagree with them as long as it's not incorporated into your scriptures? If I have misunderstood, please do correct me.

I'm off to bed, it's almost 11.30pm here - or I will never get up in the morning!
 
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Jane_Doe

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I'm with you on telling people what they believe, which is why (hope you noticed!) I have tried to phrase this as questions, rather than "you believe" statements.
That's one thing I really appreciate about you. My thanks again.
I believe that there is one God. He exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each fully God, each a distinct person. Because of the incarnation I believe Jesus is fully God and fully human.

This seems to be what you have said you believe, am I right?
Yep!
So, when I asked the missionaries about multiple gods
Multiple person is ONE God.

Note: one thing to realize when talking to LDS folks is that LDS folks too can misunderstand other people's beliefs. Misunderstanding of Athanasian beliefs is particularly rampant, I would say >50% of random LDS folks mix up that and modalism. I've many times heard an LDS person say something to the jest of "Those trinitarians think Christ talks to himself on the cross!" This obviously is incorrect, and I personally do try to correct it if there's the opportunity. Still, it is a very common shortcoming.

, and God having a wife or wives, they said that was true.
Wife in the singular is a belief, though a seldom talked about one. The seldom is simply because we don't know much so there's not much to say. Our faith in not a faith to claim to know everything, rather we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
They also talked about their hope of becoming gods one day. Do you believe that?
Not in the way you're thinking of it.

We never replace God. Or to have have there be more than one God. Rather, a believer may become one with God. Perfectly embodying His Goodness, Perfection, Love, Mercy, Justice, Power, Knowledge, Patience, Unity etc. We will be perfectly like Him. At this point the sum total of Gods will be: 1. Still 1. Remember: we become ONE, as Christ prayed in the Garden.
 
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Jane_Doe

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@Phoebe Ann gave some interesting quotes from LDS literature.
*Laugh* You mean her newspaper quotes?

While I appreciate the humor, I think that if a person wants to discuss someone faith (either their own or another persons), it's best to discuss doctrinal statements in a respectful manner, and let people talk for themselves. Newspaper are not doctrinal statements by anyone's accounting. That's why I very openly talked about the 2 quotes earlier with you.
Another question - you kind of "dismissed" the quotes I found as not being canonical.
Correct, they are not canonical. I'm still happy to talk about them, just wanting to establish their authority level from the get-go.
Yet, some were given by leaders of your Church, whom I think you regard as all being prophets. So surely, regardless of whether they have been canonised, they carry authority if you believe they are prophets? Can you explain the thinking there? Can you openly and freely disagree with them as long as it's not incorporated into your scriptures? If I have misunderstood, please do correct me.
LDS believe that there has been 1 perfect person on this planet: Jesus Christ. All others fall short. Prophets are men of God, but still men-- we do NOT believe every random thing they say is automatically perfect. This is true both for ancient times and moderns ones. Doctrines of Christ are not taught just in one random statement said one time, but rather from the mouths of many witnesses.

Now, there are subjects that is not discussed in scripture or doctrinal statements, for a variety of reasons. One this subject an individual is *not* to just randomly pick and choose what they think is right according to their whims. Rather, they are to prayerfully study and ask God what is true, and God will tell them His truth. This individual answer is for that individual, for your individual understanding. (Note: you're also supposed to pray "is this true" for big doctrinal points too). And yes, your individual answer may be different than other person's individual answer, and that's ok.

Did that answer your question?
 
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mmksparbud

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Yeah, I'd agree with that. (but it generates a follow up question I would have for you, but I'll sit on that for now!) Interestingly Hebrews 2:11 states that Jesus isn't ashamed to call Christians his brothers and sisters - "So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters."


What has been pointed out to them, and they will totally ignore, is the fact that Jesus is the one that created Lucifer.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That totally negates the Jesus is Satan's brother but they fight against this tooth and nail--but can not. They will go on and on about the word "all."
 
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Rescued One

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JaneDoe can complain about her church's newspaper quotes. I didn't quote newspapers except for Truman Madsen's statement. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints quoted from the Deseret News --- not I. I quoted from an official priesthood lesson manual(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

As for saying "LDS believe," I seldom do that. I never tell a Mormon, "You believe." Jane says "LDS believe," but neither she nor I know what all LDS believe.
 
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Can a resurrected human become equal to God?

Mormon scripture states:

Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 88
 
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DW1980

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Correct, they are not canonical. I'm still happy to talk about them, just wanting to establish their authority level from the get-go.

LDS believe that there has been 1 perfect person on this planet: Jesus Christ. All others fall short. Prophets are men of God, but still men-- we do NOT believe every random thing they say is automatically perfect. This is true both for ancient times and moderns ones. Doctrines of Christ are not taught just in one random statement said one time, but rather from the mouths of many witnesses.

Now, there are subjects that is not discussed in scripture or doctrinal statements, for a variety of reasons. One this subject an individual is *not* to just randomly pick and choose what they think is right according to their whims.

This is interesting, so a prophet can give a sermon, and you can disagree. But if that was then canonised, you'd have to believe it?

Rather, they are to prayerfully study and ask God what is true, and God will tell them His truth. This individual answer is for that individual, for your individual understanding. (Note: you're also supposed to pray "is this true" for big doctrinal points too). And yes, your individual answer may be different than other person's individual answer, and that's ok.

Did that answer your question?

Just to be clear, I don't believe in praying "is this true" is a test for truth. Yes, ask for guidance and revelation, but to me the test for truth is to check against Scripture (Isaiah 8:20, Acts 17:11). But you've raised an interesting question.

I found the Book of Mormon verse the missionaries presented. It says this:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10:4)
So, (let's say hypothetically as I know we will disagree) I could pray about this and be told that the Book of Mormon is not true. I doubt that you'd accept that! But it seems to me that this is a catch 22. If I were to pray about this and get a no, this verse would imply that either I did not ask with a sincere heart, or with real intent, or I was lacking faith. This verse is essentially a win-win for Mormons. There is no way to use this to come up with any other acceptable answer other than "yes".

So, here is my question! If you can pray about a "minor" thing and get a different answer to the person sitting beside you, is one of you being misled? If you can be misled on a minor thing, you can be misled on a major thing too, right? And if that is possible, doesn't that invalidate the whole notion about praying about truth?
 
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DW1980

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We never replace God. Or to have have there be more than one God. Rather, a believer may become one with God. Perfectly embodying His Goodness, Perfection, Love, Mercy, Justice, Power, Knowledge, Patience, Unity etc. We will be perfectly like Him. At this point the sum total of Gods will be: 1. Still 1. Remember: we become ONE, as Christ prayed in the Garden.

Doesn't this contradict what you said earlier? If there is a Heavenly Mother, she is a Goddess right? The Book of Abraham consistently says "Gods", plural.
Abraham 4

Because this is supposed to be inspired, you can't negate that it's teaching polytheism. Technically then, Mormons are henotheists - that is believe that there multiple gods, but worship one of them. Have I understood that correctly?
 
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DW1980

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Can a resurrected human become equal to God?

Mormon scripture states:

Doctrine and Covenants 88
107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him.

Doctrine and Covenants 88

This is interesting, and would support the idea that there are many gods, right? If we were to be made equal with God, then we would be gods? So this idea is taught in Mormon Scripture.
 
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Jane_Doe

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This is interesting, so a prophet can give a sermon, and you can disagree. But if that was then canonised, you'd have to believe it?
A person doesn't *have* to believe anything. A person doesn't have to be LDS, a Christian, or theist. But when it comes to establishing what is LDS doctrine, there is a whole spectrum between some random off-the-cuff-out-there comment to the Words of God recorded in scripture. I have found other faiths to be very similar in that regard.

Here's a useful explanatory quote for you:
"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted." Approaching Mormon Doctrine

Yes, ask for guidance and revelation, but to me the test for truth is to check against Scripture (Isaiah 8:20, Acts 17:11). But you've raised an interesting question.

I found the Book of Mormon verse the missionaries presented. It says this:

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. (Moroni 10:4)
Actually the checking with scripture is a critical part of this whole thing. You'll notice I said "prayerfully study and ask God what is true". The Moroni chapter likewise talks about studying things out (it's elaborated more in verse 9 and earlier). You got to do your homework AND seek God's counsel.
So, (let's say hypothetically as I know we will disagree) I could pray about this and be told that the Book of Mormon is not true. I doubt that you'd accept that!
I guess I'm going to surprise you in that regard ;) If you honestly study things out with open humble heart, honestly are willing to do what the Lord commands, and honestly receive that answer, then you should listen to it.
So, here is my question! If you can pray about a "minor" thing and get a different answer to the person sitting beside you, is one of you being misled?
If the Lord tells you to do something, you should quit wasting your time looking at other people and do it.
(Bytheway, this question coming from a Protestant is... funny- I hope it doesn't cause offense me saying that.
)to be...
If you can be misled on a minor thing, you can be misled on a major thing too, right? And if that is possible, doesn't that invalidate the whole notion about praying about truth?
Actually I find it solidifies the belief that a person is to study and pray, rather than just blindly accept what another person tells in (including their interoperation of scripture).
 
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