Why doesn't Jesus know when he's going to return?

[miamited]

Good morning all,

I'm reading the book, The New Answers Book 1 and I came across something that seems to reflect my thinking on how we need to stringently strive to separate from what we believe, what the Scriptures actually tell us and what we believe based on things that great teachers and theologians have placed as an overlay of the Scriptures. The author is talking about a theologian by the name of G. H. Pember. Pember, according to his bio, was affiliated with the 'Plymouth Brethren' fellowship of believers. In his lifetime in the U.K. he authored several books and theological treatises. His basic foundational belief of the creation was of the gap theory type.

However, in his book Earth's earliest ages he writes of the phenomenon that I am alluding to in my understanding on this and many other discussions of the Scriptures and what they 'really' tell us vs. what many people 'understand' that the Scriptures tell us. He writes:

For, by skillfully blending their own systems with the truths of the Scriptures, they so bewildered the minds of the multitude that but few retained the power of distinguishing the revelation of God from the craftily interwoven teachings of men. And the result is that inconsistent and unsound interpretations have been handed down from generation to generation, and received as if they were integral parts of the Scriptures themselves;...

Now, this explanation of how men's ideas get interwoven into our understanding of what the Scriptures really say is directed towards his understanding of the creation event and so he concludes:

...while any texts which seem violently opposed were allegorized, spiritualized, or explained away, till they ceased to be troublesome, or perchance, were even made subservient.

So, this is what I strive to separate when studying the Scriptures and attempting to understand what God is telling me. In this 'Jesus is God' discussion, we have some very distinct teachings that can be gleaned from the words of the Scriptures.

Jesus is God's Son. This relationship between Jesus and God is repeated literally dozens of times in the new covenant writings.

God is Jesus' Father. This relationship is also repeated multiple times in the new covenant writings.

In nearly every introduction of his letters, Paul writes greetings to those he is addressing and clearly separates who he is writing to them on behalf of. In his letter to the Romans he holds out a clear separation between who God is and who Jesus is:

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4

In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3

In 2 Corinthians 1:2 he addresses his reader in the exact same way. In his opening salutation to the believers in Galatia he makes even more clear that Jesus is under the authority of God:

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

As I said, nearly all of Paul's letters begin this way. I can't imagine that it isn't clear to us that Paul, at least, seemed to hold some separation between who God is and who Jesus is.

The book of Hebrews goes into even greater detail concerning this apparent separation between God and Jesus:

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Clearly the writer of Hebrews is telling us that there is a separate and distinct personage who now sits at the right hand of the Majesty (God) in heaven. That one is our Lord and Savior, Jesus. There is also another possibly important teaching in this passage of Hebrews that honestly, I would have to research further to have any assurance that it is saying what it seems to be saying:

So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Is this possibly actually telling us that after he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven and then became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs? Did this that he became proceed from the process and completion of his providing purification for sin? Now, I don't wish to derail my purpose in this post, but depending on the accuracy of translators, that would seem to be what this passage in the writings of Hebrews seems to be making. What are we to understand from this phrase 'So he became'?

Then we move to other writers of the new covenant. James opens his letter:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ...

Peter opens his letter:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!

John in his letter:

The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

So, it seems clear to me that the first apostles seemed to define and understand that there was some separation in who God is and who Jesus is.

On the other side of the discussion there are some apparent evidences that Jesus made some statements that could be construed that He was God, but they aren't as clear as these previous evidences that I've pulled from the apostles' writings.

At one point, when Jesus was challenged on his claim of having known Abraham, he answers his challengers by saying that before Abraham was, I am. This was, according to the Scriptures themselves, one of the chief reasons that the Jews came to decide that he had to die for such blasphemy and to refer to himself as God. But, is that what he was telling them?

We know, through the Scriptures, that Jesus also existed before Abraham. But, we also know that there is a record in the Scriptures that Jesus claimed that the words he spoke were not his own, but were given to him by the Father. He clearly said that the words I speak are not my own.

The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. John 14:10

Is it therefore possible, that when Jesus replied to them "I am", that it was the Father living in him that caused him to speak those words just as he claimed to his disciples that it was the Father living in him that caused him to speak the words he spoke to them? I'm simply saying that our using this reference of the Scriptures to make some claim that Jesus is God, could well be the same error that the Jews thought those words meant that brought about Jesus' death. Now, I'm not saying that our believing the same thing about these words is also tantamount to our causing Jesus' death, but that in this instance it does seem to have been a great cause for error to the Jews, also.

Try out this possible explanation for Jesus' words. Jesus is standing before this group of people with the Spirit of God within him that, according to his own testimony, is giving him the words that proceed from his mouth. They challenge him on his claim that he existed before Abraham. God's Spirit directs Jesus to say to them in order to prove the authority and person of the one who is actually speaking to them, say to them, "I tell you that before Abraham, I Am!" So, this is God's Spirit speaking through His Son saying something like, "Listen guys. You want to know who you're dealing with here and how long I've been around? Well here's how you will know in the same way that I told Moses to let the first Israelites know who was sending him. Son, say to them that I Am and they will realize that just as I sent Moses with that testimony to identify to the Israelites who was sending him, I am likewise using those same words to identity to this bunch of stiff-necked people who sent you.

That's just a possible explanation, of course, but it does have a certain fitment and is exactly how God told Moses to identify Him to the Israelites 1,000 years before. But, as seems so clear to me, the first apostles didn't seem to have this Jesus is God understanding that we try to push around today. So, for me, Jesus is God's Son and God is his Father. Jesus is the servant that Isaiah wrote of. This also would explain more easily how Jesus could die for our sins, but God cannot. God cannot die. So if there's a need for death to ransom sinners, then God couldn't have provided it through His own death. God cannot die!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HwtChirino]

Scripture says the Father, Son and Spirit are one. It says there is one God.

But, show me where scripture says one means equal, because there are multiple places where scripture teaches you can be one and still be different with what you are one with.

Oh my goodness... really?

God is ONE, there is only ONE God. Three Persons with the same Divine Essence. Thus, it cannot be logical to say that the Son is lessor or inferior to the Father or the Holy Spirit.

 

[he-man]

Good morning all, I'm reading the book, The New Answers Book 1 and I came across something that seems to reflect my thinking on how we need to stringently strive to separate from what we believe, what the Scriptures actually tell us and what we believe based on things that great teachers and theologians have placed as an overlay of the Scriptures. The author is talking about a theologian by the name of G. H. Pember. Pember, according to his bio, was affiliated with the 'Plymouth Brethren' fellowship of believers. In his lifetime in the U.K. he authored several books and theological treatises. His basic foundational belief of the creation was of the gap theory type. However, in his book Earth's earliest ages he writes of the phenomenon that I am alluding to in my understanding on this and many other discussions of the Scriptures and what they 'really' tell us vs. what many people 'understand' that the Scriptures tell us. He writes: For, by skillfully blending their own systems with the truths of the Scriptures, they so bewildered the minds of the multitude that but few retained the power of distinguishing the revelation of God from the craftily interwoven teachings of men. And the result is that inconsistent and unsound interpretations have been handed down from generation to generation, and received as if they were integral parts of the Scriptures themselves;... Now, this explanation of how men's ideas get interwoven into our understanding of what the Scriptures really say is directed towards his understanding of the creation event and so he concludes: ...while any texts which seem violently opposed were allegorized, spiritualized, or explained away, till they ceased to be troublesome, or perchance, were even made subservient. So, this is what I strive to separate when studying the Scriptures and attempting to understand what God is telling me. In this 'Jesus is God' discussion, we have some very distinct teachings that can be gleaned from the words of the Scriptures. Jesus is God's Son. This relationship between Jesus and God is repeated literally dozens of times in the new covenant writings. God is Jesus' Father. This relationship is also repeated multiple times in the new covenant writings. In nearly every introduction of his letters, Paul writes greetings to those he is addressing and clearly separates who he is writing to them on behalf of. In his letter to the Romans he holds out a clear separation between who God is and who Jesus is: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
In 2 Corinthians 1:2 he addresses his reader in the exact same way. In his opening salutation to the believers in Galatia he makes even more clear that Jesus is under the authority of God:
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
As I said, nearly all of Paul's letters begin this way. I can't imagine that it isn't clear to us that Paul, at least, seemed to hold some separation between who God is and who Jesus is.The book of Hebrews goes into even greater detail concerning this apparent separation between God and Jesus: In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Clearly the writer of Hebrews is telling us that there is a separate and distinct personage who now sits at the right hand of the Majesty (God) in heaven. That one is our Lord and Savior, Jesus. There is also another possibly important teaching in this passage of Hebrews that honestly, I would have to research further to have any assurance that it is saying what it seems to be saying: So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. Is this possibly actually telling us that after he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven and then became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs? Did this that he became proceed from the process and completion of his providing purification for sin? Now, I don't wish to derail my purpose in this post, but depending on the accuracy of translators, that would seem to be what this passage in the writings of Hebrews seems to be making. What are we to understand from this phrase 'So he became'? Then we move to other writers of the new covenant. James opens his letter: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ... Peter opens his letter: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! John in his letter: The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

So, it seems clear to me that the first apostles seemed to define and understand that there was some separation in who God is and who Jesus is.

On the other side of the discussion there are some apparent evidences that Jesus made some statements that could be construed that He was God, but they aren't as clear as these previous evidences that I've pulled from the apostles' writings.

At one point, when Jesus was challenged on his claim of having known Abraham, he answers his challengers by saying that before Abraham was, I am. This was, according to the Scriptures themselves, one of the chief reasons that the Jews came to decide that he had to die for such blasphemy and to refer to himself as God. But, is that what he was telling them?

We know, through the Scriptures, that Jesus also existed before Abraham. But, we also know that there is a record in the Scriptures that Jesus claimed that the words he spoke were not his own, but were given to him by the Father. He clearly said that the words I speak are not my own.

The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. John 14:10

Is it therefore possible, that when Jesus replied to them "I am", that it was the Father living in him that caused him to speak those words just as he claimed to his disciples that it was the Father living in him that caused him to speak the words he spoke to them? I'm simply saying that our using this reference of the Scriptures to make some claim that Jesus is God, could well be the same error that the Jews thought those words meant that brought about Jesus' death. Now, I'm not saying that our believing the same thing about these words is also tantamount to our causing Jesus' death, but that in this instance it does seem to have been a great cause for error to the Jews, also.

Try out this possible explanation for Jesus' words. Jesus is standing before this group of people with the Spirit of God within him that, according to his own testimony, is giving him the words that proceed from his mouth. They challenge him on his claim that he existed before Abraham. God's Spirit directs Jesus to say to them in order to prove the authority and person of the one who is actually speaking to them, say to them, "I tell you that before Abraham, I Am!" So, this is God's Spirit speaking through His Son saying something like, "Listen guys. You want to know who you're dealing with here and how long I've been around? Well here's how you will know in the same way that I told Moses to let the first Israelites know who was sending him. Son, say to them that I Am and they will realize that just as I sent Moses with that testimony to identify to the Israelites who was sending him, I am likewise using those same words to identity to this bunch of stiff-necked people who sent you.

That's just a possible explanation, of course, but it does have a certain fitment and is exactly how God told Moses to identify Him to the Israelites 1,000 years before. But, as seems so clear to me, the first apostles didn't seem to have this Jesus is God understanding that we try to push around today. So, for me, Jesus is God's Son and God is his Father. Jesus is the servant that Isaiah wrote of. This also would explain more easily how Jesus could die for our sins, but God cannot. God cannot die. So if there's a need for death to ransom sinners, then God couldn't have provided it through His own death. God cannot die! God bless, In Christ, ted

God Bless Ted! You got it right: Here is a little corrected translation:
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.

 

[HwtChirino]

God Bless Ted! You got it right: Here is a little corrected translation:
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:1-4
In his first letter to the Corinthian believers Paul also separates that there is God and there is Jesus:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:3
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead...Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:1-4 Earlier God spoke to our fatherss through the prophets at many times and in many ways, in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and for [G1223] whom also He made the eons. Who being the radiance of the glory and the impression of his being, cleansing all our sins by the word his power, he sat down at the right of the Greatness in heaven. Having become so much better than the angels as the name he has inherited from them as much more diverse.

1) Simply because the Scriptures clearly identify the Father and the Son as being different Persons of the One Godhead, this does not mean in any way that the Father and the Son are not both equally God.

2) For, if the Son says, I and the Father are One, and John says, The Word was God, and the Lord again says, All authority in Heaven and on earth has been given unto Me, then it is beyond refutation and all sound reason that Christ Jesus, the Son of God, is Himself also equally God with the Father and the Holy Spirit also. For this reason, therefore, the Son's will, His works, and His essence are all completely identical to that of the Father's and the Holy Spirit.

3) And if this is the truth, and I assure you that it is, then for Paul to call God the Father and to call Jesus Christ the Lord does not in any way imply that there is a distinction in essence or rank, meaning that Paul does not mean to assert that only the Father can be properly called God and only Jesus can be properly be called Lord. Moreover, Paul does not mean to say that Jesus is not God and that the Father is not Lord. How impious!

4) But if I may, with the fear of God, give you a righteous answer, hear the truth: within the Holy Trinity, all Lordship has been primarily ascribed to the Son, while the origin of the Godhead can be ascribed to the Father. And so, this is why we say that the Son, although He is properly and truly God and equal to the Father, was begotten of the Father pre-eternally, and in this way He is the Father of the Son. And because the Son became flesh and is fully man, in this way the Son can deem the Father His God and no longer merely His Father.

5) Thus, from the Father is the origin of the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son was begotten of the Father. And the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Therefore, the Father is called God first, but the Son is also equally God, and so is the Holy Spirit equally God. Is the God of all not also Lord of all? Yes, but the Father has chosen to give this Lordship to the Son. And yet, the Father is also equally Lord, and the Holy Spirit also. Finally, because we believe these irrefutable truths, we assert with all piety that the Holy Spirit is also equally and fully God and Lord of all.

6) Paul, by the Holy Spirit, names the Father as God and Jesus Christ as Lord. But if the Holy Trinity is One God, then we do not make any distinction in rank or equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, for the Three Persons are One God, One Lord, One Creator, One Savior, One King, One Judge, One Redeemer.

 

[miamited]

Hi hwtchirino,

Thanks for your response. I have no problem with the understanding of the trinity as Jesus defined it. Go into all the world teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I agree completely with Jesus' words. There are three that make it possible for our soon coming salvation. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the three are one. Just as you also will be equal to God because Jesus also asked his Father to make us one just as he is one with the Father. If that oneship means that Jesus is God, then it must also mean that we will be God.

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.

Jesus' prayer to his Father is that we, the believers who would come to the faith that God asks of us through His Son, would be one just as he and God are one. Not to sound mocking because I tremble in fear to mock God, but if this idea that Jesus is God is because Jesus said that he and the Father are one, then this prayer shows us that Jesus is asking for the same kind of relationship between us and God. I agree that there is a oneness that the trinity of the Godhead and all those who believe will share, but that oneness doesn't make any of us equal to God.

Anyway, enough of this disagreement among the brethren, as the Scriptures say, we should each one work out our salvation in fear and trembling. In our human frailty it is difficult for us to really understand the physical truth of the relationship between God and Jesus and so with all of the evidence that has been presented notwithstanding, I'm secure to understand that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. That through the indwelling Spirit of God we will all be one and are working towards that oneness as we persevere to the end.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HwtChirino]

Hi hwtchirino,

Thanks for your response. I have no problem with the understanding of the trinity as Jesus defined it. Go into all the world teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I agree completely with Jesus' words. There are three that make it possible for our soon coming salvation. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the three are one. Just as you also will be equal to God because Jesus also asked his Father to make us one just as he is one with the Father. If that oneship means that Jesus is God, then it must also mean that we will be God.

Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.

Jesus' prayer to his Father is that we, the believers who would come to the faith that God asks of us through His Son, would be one just as he and God are one. Not to sound mocking because I tremble in fear to mock God, but if this idea that Jesus is God is because Jesus said that he and the Father are one, then this prayer shows us that Jesus is asking for the same kind of relationship between us and God. I agree that there is a oneness that the trinity of the Godhead and all those who believe will share, but that oneness doesn't make any of us equal to God.

Anyway, enough of this disagreement among the brethren, as the Scriptures say, we should each one work out our salvation in fear and trembling. In our human frailty it is difficult for us to really understand the physical truth of the relationship between God and Jesus and so with all of the evidence that has been presented notwithstanding, I'm secure to understand that God is the Father and Jesus is the Son. That through the indwelling Spirit of God we will all be one and are working towards that oneness as we persevere to the end.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Thou art not far from the kingdom of God, as the Lord said to the scribe.

But you are not speaking truthfully when you refuse to affirm with all pious Christians, that Christ is truly God, not just One with the Father. Jesus is God by nature, not by grace. Jesus is fully Divine and fully man, but before He became man, He was only fully Divine.

It is not possible for anyone but God Himself to make the following statements:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Revelations 1:8)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58)

And God said unto Moses, I AM WHO I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodues 3:14)

And if you are not yet convinced that the Son is God, read the following:

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness (Genesis 1:26)

1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, Three Men stood by him: and when he saw Them, he ran to meet Them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, (Genesis 18:1-3)

Now, you say that Jesus prayed that we would be one with God, and you speak rightly in this regard. But you do not understand that Christ is praying that we would become One with God by grace, not that our human nature would change so that we would become God in nature. Use your logic and understand that it is impossible for God to have a beginning or an end. But we know that we all have had a beginning; therefore, we are already disqualified from being truly God. We shall be gods in that we will be joined to God and commune with His love for eternity, remaining immortal without being subject to corruption or evil. But we will not be gods in the sense that we will have the capacity to do everything that only God Himself can do. Yet, if Christ created all things, then we know that He is God, for only God can create all things and pre-exist before all things.

 

[miamited]

Hi he-man,

Just to make for easier reading, I like to separate my paragraphs with a space line. I've also gotten into the habit of offering direct quotes from the Scriptures in colored lettering so that the reader will know that it is a direct quote of Scripture and not some silly idea of my own. It also allows the reader to understand that where the red lettering begins, this is the point where I am quoting Scripture. Then when the colored lettering ends, ok, now we're back to my half baked ideas.

Nothing against anything you wrote in your post, but merely some ideas to make your writing a bit easier to read.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Thou art not far from the kingdom of God, as the Lord said to the scribe.

But you are not speaking truthfully when you refuse to affirm with all pious Christians, that Christ is truly God, not just One with the Father. Jesus is God by nature, not by grace. Jesus is fully Divine and fully man, but before He became man, He was only fully Divine.

It is not possible for anyone but God Himself to make the following statements:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Revelations 1:8)

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58)

And God said unto Moses, I AM WHO I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodues 3:14)

And if you are not yet convinced that the Son is God, read the following:

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness (Genesis 1:26)

1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, Three Men stood by him: and when he saw Them, he ran to meet Them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, (Genesis 18:1-3)

Now, you say that Jesus prayed that we would be one with God, and you speak rightly in this regard. But you do not understand that Christ is praying that we would become One with God by grace, not that our human nature would change so that we would become God in nature. Use your logic and understand that it is impossible for God to have a beginning or an end. But we know that we all have had a beginning; therefore, we are already disqualified from being truly God. We shall be gods in that we will be joined to God and commune with His love for eternity, remaining immortal without being subject to corruption or evil. But we will not be gods in the sense that we will have the capacity to do everything that only God Himself can do. Yet, if Christ created all things, then we know that He is God, for only God can create all things and pre-exist before all things.

Hi hwtchirino,

All wonderful words and ideas, but...

You say: But you are not speaking truthfully when you refuse to affirm with all pious Christians, that Christ is truly God, not just One with the Father.

I'm merely copying and pasting the words found in the Scriptures. Paul writes that Jesus is the exact representation of the glory of God. I agree with that. But, Jesus only ever said that he was one with the Father. He never once made the direct claim that he was truly God. Now, does that mean that I am not in agreement with your idea of what a pious christian might believe? Probably. But I am obviously in agreement with a few christians and Jesus said that the way of eternal life was a narrow path that only 'a few' would find. He later says that 'many' of those who practiced a kind of christian religiosity would be turned away. He says of these people that are christians that they claim of themselves to have done great deeds and miracle and prophesied in Jesus' name. That descriptive can only apply to people who call themselves christians. There are no muslims or buddhists, hindis or atheists that perform deeds and miracles and prophesy in Jesus' name.

Now, you say that Jesus prayed that we would be one with God, and you speak rightly in this regard. But you do not understand that Christ is praying that we would become One with God by grace, not that our human nature would change so that we would become God in nature.

While I appreciate your offering your understanding of what Jesus meant when he asked the Father that we be one, I think it is being honest of us to understand that this is your ideas about what Jesus said. Jesus doesn't actually say anything about his request being one of grace and not nature as you claim it is. He merely asks of the Father that we be one as he is one with the Father.

I don't know how all of your chapter 1 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ reads, but here's how mine does:

John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”So shall it be! Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:4-8

The final sentence is the Lord God speaking who John introduces to us in the beginning of this passage as the one who is, and who was, and who is to come. Then John also introduces us to the seven spirits before his throne. Then John introduces us to Jesus Christ and makes the claim that he is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, the ruler of the king of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him(still speaking of the Father) be glory and power for ever and ever!

I have already given a fairly lengthy explanation of Jesus' words to the Jews gathered to challenge him, his use of the words 'I Am'.

And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness (Genesis 1:26)

A pretty clear indication that there was more than one personage with God when He created man. Please understand that I am not at all denying the existence of Jesus at the creation event.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[HwtChirino]

Hi hwtchirino,

All wonderful words and ideas, but...

You say: But you are not speaking truthfully when you refuse to affirm with all pious Christians, that Christ is truly God, not just One with the Father.

I'm merely copying and pasting the words found in the Scriptures. Paul writes that Jesus is the exact representation of the glory of God. I agree with that. But, Jesus only ever said that he was one with the Father. He never once made the direct claim that he was truly God. Now, does that mean that I am not in agreement with your idea of what a pious christian might believe? Probably. But I am obviously in agreement with a few christians and Jesus said that the way of eternal life was a narrow path that only 'a few' would find. He later says that 'many' of those who practiced a kind of christian religiosity would be turned away. He says of these people that are christians that they claim of themselves to have done great deeds and miracle and prophesied in Jesus' name. That descriptive can only apply to people who call themselves christians. There are no muslims or buddhists, hindis or atheists that perform deeds and miracles and prophesy in Jesus' name.




While I appreciate your offering your understanding of what Jesus meant when he asked the Father that we be one, I think it is being honest of us to understand that this is your ideas about what Jesus said. Jesus doesn't actually say anything about his request being one of grace and not nature as you claim it is. He merely asks of the Father that we be one as he is one with the Father.

I don't know how all of your chapter 1 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ reads, but here's how mine does:

John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”So shall it be! Amen.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:4-8

The final sentence is the Lord God speaking who John introduces to us in the beginning of this passage as the one who is, and who was, and who is to come. Then John also introduces us to the seven spirits before his throne. Then John introduces us to Jesus Christ and makes the claim that he is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, the ruler of the king of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him(still speaking of the Father) be glory and power for ever and ever!

I have already given a fairly lengthy explanation of Jesus' words to the Jews gathered to challenge him, his use of the words 'I Am'.



A pretty clear indication that there was more than one personage with God when He created man. Please understand that I am not at all denying the existence of Jesus at the creation event.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I don't need to respond to much of what you said since you have already conceded that Christ existed at the event of all creation.

The Scriptures say, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" (Colossians 1:16-19)

To create is the property of God alone. The Son, being the Creator of all things, is equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

John proclaims, "In the beginning was the Word...The Word was God". How do you refute this? It could not be any clearer that the Son is God.

You point to Paul, then let me point to Peter who says, But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:18) Here, we see Peter giving glory to Jesus Christ alone. Why does he neglect mentioning the Father and the Holy Spirit?

It is quite unreasonable and irrational for you to assert that when Jesus says, I AM, that He does not mean that He is God. Equally absurd is the claim that when He says that He is One with the Father, that He does not mean He is equally God with the Father.

For you to say that Jesus "never made the direct claim that He was truly God" is quite untrue. You say that you copy and paste the scriptures, but that is also false, since you are blatantly attempting to expound them. This is not mere citation, but interpretation. Therefore, you do not speak accurately here either.

I will confute you on both accounts:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

What will you say now? That John was simply explaining what the Jews thought? What would lead you to think that John does not mean to explain to us that this is actually what Jesus meant? There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Jesus meant anything else.

You somehow think that John is not referring to Christ as God in the beginning of Revelation. Why do you ignore the rest of the chapter?

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Revelation 1:17-18)

Moreover, you say that the fact that John refers to God as the Father of Christ instead of referring to Christ as God, that this is evidence for your position. No, you are again quite wrong. For how is it possible that John ascribes glory and dominion to Jesus Christ forever? If Jesus is not God, entirely equal to the Father, it would be blasphemous for John to give glory to Jesus Christ. But if the Son is equal to the Father, we see great piety in John by giving glory to Christ. He does not say, to God the Father be glory and dominion; no, he says, to Jesus Christ be glory and dominion.

And when Jesus says, I am the Light of Life...I am the Resurrection and the Life...I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...

He who created all things, who gives the Light to men, who resurrects mankind and bestows on them life, the same cannot be anyone else but very God Himself. To say anything contrary to this is utter blasphemy.

 

[miamited]

Hi hwtchirino,

No, I am not arguing the existence of Jesus at the creation event and still sitting at the right hand of the Majesty. I am not arguing the glory of Jesus that he proclaims that God has given him. I'm merely putting forth a position that there is quite ample Scriptural evidence that the 'Jesus is God' idea isn't particularly well exposed in the Scriptures and that pretty much all of the new covenant writers seemed to have this idea that God and Jesus were different personages with different abilities and, therefore, not precisely equal to each other. The main one, for our purposes is that Jesus could die and God cannot die. That God himself refers to Jesus as His servant in the old covenant and that would be an odd thing to say about your equal. Especially in the day that those words were written down. Even Jesus alluded that a servant is not equal to his master.

What I am saying is that a lot of the evidence that people put out there to explain the 'Jesus is God' doctrine isn't really clear, and some of it isn't even made, in the Scriptures, but rather has come from the writings of others who have studied the Scriptures and come to this understanding. In explaining how they came to this understanding, then some accept it and then begin to say to others, "this is what the bible says", when it really isn't what the bible says but is actually the understanding that someone else came up with in reading what the bible actually says.

Just as in your evidence that you believe that when Jesus spoke of the oneness of himself and God and the believers and God, you have added in, through your own understanding that Jesus is talking about a natural relationship between him and God and a grace relationship in what Jesus asks of God in making the rest of us 'one with God'. The 'grace and natural' part of your explanation doesn't come directly from the Scriptures.

You've read the passage and asked yourself, "Ok, how can we understand that Jesus is God and one with God and man can be one with God but man is not God?" Your reply from your own thinking has led you to understand that there is a 'natural' relationship that makes Jesus God when he declares to be one with God, but when he makes the same claim about men, well, that's a relationship of grace. I get that, and I understand what you're saying, but I also understand that the core of your argument doesn't come from the Scriptures.

Then I read Peter's warning to the believers that there are some without understanding who invent all kinds of heresies (loose translation) and I have to say to myself, "Ok, let's go pray for the wisdom of God's Spirit and read the Scriptures and see what kind of conviction we end up with." For me, that conviction is that the Scriptures don't ever make clear with any declarative statement that Jesus is God. The closest we seem to get is Paul telling us that he is the exact representation of God. That in him is found the fullness of the God. I agree with both of those statements that Paul has written to us. But in that very same place where he writes this, he then concludes not that when Jesus returned to heaven that he was reabsorbed into God's Spirit, but that he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty. That place reserved for Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father...

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi hwtchirino,

You brought forth this passage of the Scriptures:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

Yes, that's what the Jews thought and why they sought to kill him, but I think it's a fairly well made point throughout the old covenant Scriptures and most surely through Jesus rebuke of them, that a lot of what they thought wasn't the reality of what is, as regards the things of God. As you read that very passage it says just before your underlined piece that they also thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath. However, we know from the very testimony of God that there was no sin found in him. How can it be that he broke the Sabbath and yet was without sin? Is it possible that the Jews weren't correct about that either?

You do see the claim of theirs that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Do you believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi hwtchirino,

You brought forth this passage of the Scriptures:


Yes, that's what the Jews thought and why they sought to kill him, but I think it's a fairly well made point throughout the old covenant Scriptures and most surely through Jesus rebuke of them, that a lot of what they thought wasn't the reality of what is, as regards the things of God. As you read that very passage it says just before your underlined piece that they also thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath. However, we know from the very testimony of God that there was no sin found in him. How can it be that he broke the Sabbath and yet was without sin? Is it possible that the Jews weren't correct about that either?

You do see the claim of theirs that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Do you believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

That's a point many miss. They claimed he broke the Sabbath but if one looks at all commandments from God concerning the Sabbath, we find he didn't break the Sabbath at all. What he broke was the oral law of the Jews, additions to God's law... view as "law" by them (halacha) but this is above and beyond God's Law. If Yeshua broke the Sabbath, he sinned because sin is the breaking of commandments, breaking the law (1 John 3:4). If he died without sin, he didn't break ANY commandment from God. He didn't eat catfish, he didn't work on Sabbath (other than to heal which is permitted), nor did he fall short in any area concerning the law. Not so that we don't have to obey after he dies... but so that he can reverse the curse of sin and death for only the death of perfection can reserve the curse of sin.

 

[HwtChirino]

Hi hwtchirino,

You brought forth this passage of the Scriptures:


Yes, that's what the Jews thought and why they sought to kill him, but I think it's a fairly well made point throughout the old covenant Scriptures and most surely through Jesus rebuke of them, that a lot of what they thought wasn't the reality of what is, as regards the things of God. As you read that very passage it says just before your underlined piece that they also thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath. However, we know from the very testimony of God that there was no sin found in him. How can it be that he broke the Sabbath and yet was without sin? Is it possible that the Jews weren't correct about that either?

You do see the claim of theirs that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Do you believe that Jesus broke the Sabbath?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The Sabbath was made for man, not for God. For God to break the Sabbath is nothing and not sin. We see clearly in other places that Jesus testifies that the priests who break the Sabbath by fulfilling their office are blameless, and that people who break the Sabbath when they circumcise a child are also blameless. Thus, it does not follow, according to your reasoning, nor according to the Truth, that breaking the Sabbath is equivalent to committing sin.

 

[HwtChirino]

That's a point many miss. They claimed he broke the Sabbath but if one looks at all commandments from God concerning the Sabbath, we find he didn't break the Sabbath at all. What he broke was the oral law of the Jews, additions to God's law... view as "law" by them (halacha) but this is above and beyond God's Law. If Yeshua broke the Sabbath, he sinned because sin is the breaking of commandments, breaking the law (1 John 3:4). If he died without sin, he didn't break ANY commandment from God. He didn't eat catfish, he didn't work on Sabbath (other than to heal which is permitted), nor did he fall short in any area concerning the law. Not so that we don't have to obey after he dies... but so that he can reverse the curse of sin and death for only the death of perfection can reserve the curse of sin.

Read my response below.

 

[miamited]

Hi ken,

I agree with what you've written and so now we have to carry it out to the next claim of the Jews. That in calling God his Father (they believed) that he was making himself equal to God. The Scriptures don't ever tell us that they were or weren't correct in that understanding and based on what is written concerning his breaking of the Sabbath, I have to understand that they likely weren't correct regarding any of it.

So, this piece of Scripture would not be a place where one could come away, after reading it, knowing that Jesus was, in fact, equal with God. All one could say about the issue is that the Jews seemed to think that Jesus was claiming himself to be equal with God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Ken Rank]

Hi ken,

I agree with what you've written and so now we have to carry it out to the next claim of the Jews. That in calling God his Father (they believed) that he was making himself equal to God. The Scriptures don't ever tell us that they were or weren't correct in that understanding and based on what is written concerning his breaking of the Sabbath, I have to understand that they likely weren't correct regarding any of it.

So, this piece of Scripture would not be a place where one could come away, after reading it, knowing that Jesus was, in fact, equal with God. All one could say about the issue is that the Jews seemed to think that Jesus was claiming himself to be equal with God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Are you familiar with the targumim, the targums? These are sort of paraphrase/commentaries of first the Torah but then of the Prophets as well, that were written about 30 years prior to Yeshua's birth. In these Aramaic writings, we see an interesting thing... that the word "memra" (Aramaic for "word") is often used in place of God's name, or in place of Elohim (the word for God). In other words, they saw the word and God as one. Thus, when Yeshua came and claimed to come from the Father, they understood the natural connection he was making. Many accepted, many rejected...but the elite certainly stood on the rejection side for many reasons I won't get into now. But, he did claim to be God and both religions are now centered on him... one believes he is messiah... the other does not. God will fix this, in His timing.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Sabbath was made for man, not for God. For God to break the Sabbath is nothing and not sin. We see clearly in other places that Jesus testifies that the priests who break the Sabbath by fulfilling their office are blameless, and that people who break the Sabbath when they circumcise a child are also blameless. Thus, it does not follow, according to your reasoning, nor according to the Truth, that breaking the Sabbath is equivalent to committing sin.

I couldn't disagree more. God's character is defined by His word. Do not murder... because murder stands against the character and will of God. Honor your parents... because doing so stands in harmony with God's will and character. Even God Himself rested on Shabbat, He worked 6 days and then rested EVEN THOUGH being God He couldn't possibly have been tired.

Respectfully... I would like to apply a rule we teach (at the school we run) on any doctrine. I am about to extend your reasoning (God can break His own commandments and that isn't sin) out to the ludicrous to show that there is no continuity in your belief on this... and, I said "respectfully" because this isn't personal, I have no issue with you in ANY way. I am just trying to show that if you are correct, what I am about to say would hold up and it doesn't. If it does, correct me and I will consider it, OK?

What if God took the form of man, and determined to have sexual relations, out of marriage, with another man and when done, he brutally killed that man. Are you going to say that isn't sin regardless of God being the one who did this?

 

[RDKirk]

All of this said, if a Muslim really does seek God, and finally comes to know Him, it will be making that person ready to learn about Christ, and therefore an intellectual debate is actually a diversion then away from what is needed, which is to hear the words of Christ.

Repeated and emphasized.

People, please, please, please, please understand the truth of what Halbhh said.

These debates are diversions to keep you from ever actually getting to the gospel, because "Christ and Him crucified" is what will save.

 

[RDKirk]

We are told by Paul that He emptied himself and took on human form. That means He had no divine superpowers on his own. As an example to us, he had to rely on the Holy Spirit for all of that.

It was the Holy Spirit that raised Him.

Yes. Jesus as a man walked around with the same three pounds of meat in his scull as we do. Three pounds of meat can only hold so much knowledge at any one time.

Jesus knew what He needed to know when He needed to know it--through the Holy Spirit-- to do the Father's will. In His obedience and humility, He would not have had any "idle curiosity" about anything more.

 

[miamited]

The Sabbath was made for man, not for God. For God to break the Sabbath is nothing and not sin. We see clearly in other places that Jesus testifies that the priests who break the Sabbath by fulfilling their office are blameless, and that people who break the Sabbath when they circumcise a child are also blameless. Thus, it does not follow, according to your reasoning, nor according to the Truth, that breaking the Sabbath is equivalent to committing sin.

Hi hwtchirino,

You've got to stop arguing my point. Stick to your own position. Whether or not Jesus does or doesn't have to honor the Sabbath isn't the point. In the very same sentence that it is recorded that the Jews accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath (whether or not he has some authority to not have to honor the Sabbath) the Jews accused him of breaking the Sabbath, they also accused him of making himself equal to God. So they were wrong to think this. According to your understanding because he wan't subject to the law of the Sabbath and according to mine because he didn't do anything to break the Sabbath. But no matter how it is understood that he didn't break the Sabbath the Jews were accusing him of breaking the Sabbath.

Now in that very same sentence in which you and I both agree that Jesus didn't break the Sabbath, albeit for different reasons, they also accused Jesus of making himself equal to God by calling God his Father. Are we really to have any assurance that they were right about the one claim but wrong about the other? If so, then on what evidence do you find that in the Scriptures?

God bless,
In Christ, ted