why doesnt god just tell us he exists

[Martin Raccon]

It just isn't his style, speaking straight to us, he likes to have us use our brains, only in some really important cases he directly speaks to humans.

 

[heymikey80]

the reason i posted that video up is because (as someone did to me with post resurrection contradictions) he can make the argument better than i. and to the person who responded entirely to that video, you must have turned it off immediatly after the utterance of the word "BS" because he immediately explains the meaning of the phrase and why it was used at that time (it was not this christian idea is bs, but rather used as "they dont have an answer, so they bs their way out of the contradiction. this is similar to what i have done on occasion with college essays). that said, he is at least mostly respectful of the christian faith.

Retract.

I endured the whole thing, what you got was my running commentary on his disparaging remarks, blow by blow.

The fact that he would call something "BS" is not mitigated by defining it afterward. That's like calling you an "AH", but then saying he meant it to mean a rose. The intensionality of the word remains even when you denote it to mean something specific.

Read Hayakawa sometime. I recommend it because it's an easy read. In fact, read up on linguistics sometime.

The video also makes the assumption that for instance John's account of physical encounters with Jesus was written later, say 90 AD at best, while earlier accounts are "spiritualized", that is in his presumption, non-physical or figurative. However, most paleontoligists point out, John's gospel is the earliest of physical fragments of any public Christian work. The gospels are quoted among the writings of the earliest church fathers (with the pastoral letters a close second). The internal evidence in John points to it being written to Jewish people (people highly familiar with Judaism, particularly with Passover) yet who were not particularly familiar with the movement.

That'd make John early in its writing. Not late. And John's physical assertions would then be early as well.

while P52 is the earliest copy, it was certainly not the earliest book. think about it this way. i read "harry potter" before i read "the time machine". does this mean that harry potter existed first? of course not, time machine was written a hundred years before harry potter.

Funny. So you can't answer the rest of the points, and the inference of p52 being First Century is the only thing you'll assail?

Well, it's pretty-much the technique of the video you adopted. Even if it doesn't lead to anything but entrenchment in a committed belief, as the video's source references themselves pointed out.

the earliest book that we know to be authentic was Gelations. it was written in around 50-55, making that 20-25 years after the supposed death of jesus.

You've no proof at all of that. In point of fact many scholars point to the Thessalonian letters. Some point to Hebrew Matthew. Some Revelation. Some Mark. Some Q.

We were talking about the dating of John, I believe. Deflection doesn't change that discussion.

it should also be noted that all of the gospels authors are anon. we dont know who wrote them, but we do know why. they are gospels, in other words, propaganda.

No, they're not all anonymous. If you had checked the citations from John, you'd know that. And no, they're not propaganda, which is often cited with names in this period. You know -- Augustus Caesar, for instance. Or Herod the Great.

The genre of propaganda doesn't exist per se by the way. I'm just assuming you mean the one-sided assertion of power that people often arrogate to themselves.

The genre of most of the New Testament is not propaganda, actually.

Frankly the post was very long and not on the topic of the post but that is my short response. if you would like to discuss further i invite you to do so through pm or create another thread in a spot where i can post. thanks.

As I said before, the post was in response to your proffered video. If you don't want the answer, don't supply the source material.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

It just isn't his style, speaking straight to us, he likes to have us use our brains, only in some really important cases he directly speaks to humans.

i guess my point is that it used to be his style, god is the same yesterday as today as forever. he used to speak to all humans (granted according to biblical evidence there were less people then). not only that he used to walk around on the earth at the beginning. in that time humans knew that god existed. there was no faith. why doesnt he do exactly what he did at the beginning and tell us he exists. faith (belief without evidence) is a bad thing. we need evidence to decipher what is real and what is not. without evidence, a good person can only be conservative and say that a thing doesn't exist unless new evidence arises. this is my position.

 

[Jesusfreak93]

Well, as people have said, with evidence, there is no faith. God doesn't come down now, for reasons unknown. Perhaps because of the sin, or that He wants us to have faith, or maybe something else. As the prophet Isaiah says in Chapter 55 of Isaiah, no one can know the mind of God. It is an impossibility. For whatever reason, He does not now, but His promises still remain.

 

[heymikey80]

Nah. Faith is simply reliance. With Kierkegaard faith was stripped of all information, a naked faith. But from the beginning it was not so.

Humans have always been limited creatures, unable to see everything; but "not everything" is not "nothing". Faith was always the component that established the relationship between God and men.

 

[Jesusfreak93]

Then what does Hebrews 11:1 mean? Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Is this Bible verse a lie, because there is no other translation for it. So either you call me a liar, or you realize that faith is the substance of things not seen. Realize I'm not arguing, when I think this in my head, it is calmly.

 

[MLEN]

"it would be alot easier, and hey, you wouldnt have any atheists and thats a good thing right?"

That's not necessarily true. Jesus came to earth and many did not believe in him then. When he was here he said `I and the Father are one'. He also said `if you have seen me you have seen the Father.' But again, who believed his report? It seemed but a few initially. Therefore the words are true that `though one were to come down from Heaven, some would not believe.'

This is why we are told `blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe'. However, once one truly gives their life to Christ he reveals himself in so many ways that it is harder not to believe than the other way around.

 

[Bible2]

faith (belief without evidence) is a bad thing

Faith is not belief without evidence. For eyewitness testimony is considered good evidence in a court of law, and the New Testament is based on eyewitness testimony: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16). "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3). "Those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:1-2). "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him" (Hebrews 2:3)?

It is by the good evidence of the Bible that God gives his gift of faith to those who will, with humility, read (or hear) what the Bible has to say: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Hebrews 3:15). "Be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble" (1 Peter 5:5).

Also, once someone has been given the gift of faith by humbly reading (or hearing) the Bible, faith in itself becomes good evidence for the believer: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

 

[kidsagainstkows]

"it would be alot easier, and hey, you wouldnt have any atheists and thats a good thing right?"

That's not necessarily true. Jesus came to earth and many did not believe in him then. When he was here he said `I and the Father are one'. He also said `if you have seen me you have seen the Father.' But again, who believed his report? It seemed but a few initially. Therefore the words are true that `though one were to come down from Heaven, some would not believe.'

This is why we are told `blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe'. However, once one truly gives their life to Christ he reveals himself in so many ways that it is harder not to believe than the other way around.

Jesus, at the end of the day, was just a guy. there were tons of messiahs at that time so a good healthy skepticism was a good thing. that people didnt believe is hardly their fault, even if he was the actual messiah.

Jesusfreek did u just agree with me and use biblical evidence to back it up?
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" sounds alot like belief without evidence to me

 

[Jazmyn]

Jesus, at the end of the day, was just a guy. there were tons of messiahs at that time so a good healthy skepticism was a good thing. that people didnt believe is hardly their fault, even if he was the actual messiah.

And He has passed the test of a good healthy skepticism:

"But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.”" (Acts 5:34-39)

Jesus addresses the premise of the OP:

"Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”" (John 20:24-29)

 

[MLEN]

"Jesus, at the end of the day, was just a guy."

Was he just a guy? Who dug deep enough in his day to really find out? They had the scriptures which foretold of his birth - where, to whom, etc. They had the evidence to witness in his daily lifestyle. They saw his miraculous works, his compassion, his forgiveness in action. Yet they still did not believe. They had scriptures references and did not search them out. After Jesus died and rose again, many saw him and testified of this. What reason would anyone have to risk their very lives for the sake of Christ if they had not experienced such eye witness account? The disciples took this gospel and preached to many after Jesus rose again, and many were saved. We are told that the Berean people were saved because they searched it out for themselves and found the account to be true.

Today, who takes the time to search Bible truth out for themselves? If I want to know about another faith, yes I may ask believers in that faith about it. But I am also going to search it out for myself. I am going to pick up the book(s) that those believers use and read it for myself. I am going ask their God to reveal himself to me. If he is real and I am sincere, why should I doubt that he would reveal himself to me?

 

[Jazmyn]

I believe Paul, who "vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." (Acts 18:28)

 

[Bible2]

Jesus, at the end of the day, was just a guy.

Jesus is God made flesh: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14).

the problem with Jesus as messiah

Just as there is no problem with YHWH being God, because he tells us he is (Isaiah 45:21), so there is no problem with Jesus being the Messiah/Christ, because he tells us he is: "Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).

 

[Jesusfreak93]

And Jesus answered all the prophecies, and raised Himself from the dead, no other messiah can claim that. And the verse is meaning that just because we haven't seen Jesus ourselves, others have and have shared the good news with us. Like when the disciple Thomas saw Jesus, but before he didn't believe He was risen, when he saw and believed, Jesus told him: "Blessed are those who believe who have not yet seen." (maybe not word for word, It's in the Bible though) The thing is though, miracles are performed by God everyday, getting up in the morning is a miracle, but people don't give God the credit, why? Because humanity is arrogant, we, deep down, have a knowledge of God, but we try to push the truth away. He shows Himself to us with miracles that we attribute to chance.

 

[spidergains]

Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Romans 1 - PassageLookup - New International Version - BibleGateway.com

 

[freeport]

if i found out today that god exists, i would most certainly not love him. mass genocide, slavery, child rape, no justice system, might makes right mentality. i dont understand why anybody would worship a being who endorses these things. even if he were to squash me like a bug, i would know that i am right and god is wrong.

The problem here is you think your understanding is new or complete.

The book of Job well covers all of this. Jesus showed what was really going on beyond that.

Jesus came to destroy the evil in the world. Yes, God allowed it. But, that is different from saying God is equal to it. People have made their own mistakes and their own decisions.

There is this great line in a really very silly movie, "I realized God did not do these things, finally, we did".

For instance, Hitler massacred the Jews. Can you say that Hitler is therefore God? Of course not. That would be entirely absurd. In fact, the antichrist is called "the tyrant". Jesus is the opposite of a tyrant.


We are supposed to care enough to try and fix things.

That love only comes from God.

 

[kidsagainstkows]

The problem here is you think your understanding is new or complete.

i am only holding god up to the standard that i would hold any human up to. certainly god can exceed the standards of humans, but instead it chooses to do nothing.

The book of Job well covers all of this.

it is my understanding that the book of Job is about God wrecking a good persons life because it can. all of Job's friends blame him for it. When Job finally says that god is doing it just to be a jerk, god comes down and says that it is doing it because it can do whatever it wants. furthermore God says that Job shouldnt even question him unless Job is at least as powerful as God. this was my "might makes right mentality" argument in my op.

For instance, Hitler massacred the Jews. Can you say that Hitler is therefore God? Of course not. That would be entirely absurd. In fact, the antichrist is called "the tyrant". Jesus is the opposite of a tyrant.

What i am saying is that if Hitler was God, i would not worship Hitler (even if Hitler would for sure kill me for my dissent). How many lives would God have saved from it's "chosen people" if on Aug 31, 1939 God had given Hitler a heart attack, or just not had it occur to Hitler to start the war in the first place.

I actually dont have a big problem with the Jesus character. he seems like a nice enough guy. he was hypocritical at times but arnt we all.

We are supposed to care enough to try and fix things.

That love only comes from God.

im not sure if your trying to say that atheists dont care about fixing things or what but thats a poor assessment if thats what you thought. how many religious wars have their been, how much loss of life has come as a direct result from religion. how much unnecessary suffering in the world has come as a direct result of religion. how often has religion been used to keep people stupid and prevent rebellion (im thinking slavery here). seriously if that is the kind of love that God gives then ill pass.

 

[drich0150]

it is my understanding that the book of Job is about God wrecking a good persons life because it can. all of Job's friends blame him for it. When Job finally says that god is doing it just to be a jerk, god comes down and says that it is doing it because it can do whatever it wants. furthermore God says that Job shouldnt even question him unless Job is at least as powerful as God. this was my "might makes right mentality" argument in my op.

I usually don't horn in on others discussions, but know (As others have said before) God didn't wreck Jobs life.. He merely removed the Hedge or protective barrier He Himself placed around Job. This subjected Job to satan. Satan was allowed to effect Job to God's limitations.

How is this any different than what happens to any of us day in and day out? Plus your only looking at the period in which Job endures his trials.. Why don't you mention what happens to him and for him, after this period was over? Why look at only half of the story if your intent is to learn of the nature of God?

When Iron is forged into steel there is much Heat and hammering that has to take place in order to introduce the right amount of carbon to make that transformation possible.. But what of the "feelings" of the iron? Should we consider the feelings of this alloy? The Heat it must endure? The constant pounding? Or do we simply decide that this Iron needs to be turned into steel for this purpose. The point is we have this authority over the metal much Like God has authority over us. Just like God we do not have to check in or get approval of what we have authority over to use it as we see fit.

Like it or not as The creator God has certain unalienable rights over us. Yielding to that authority is a big part of what Job is about.

 

[andreha]

Drich is right - it is important to yield to God's will, and to give ourselves completely to Him. Then He shows us awesome things. Like a while ago, when we had to have our roof fixed, because of warped timbers. It was raining quite a bit, and the workers would arrive the next day, so I was worried about the weather. Rain would mess things up, as the timber would then warp again. So, I prayed, and asked God for sunny weather the next day. He assured me that it would be fine. That next morning, I woke up, and went outside. See, I couldn't resist the temptation to go outside and see what the weather looked like - instead of just taking His word for it. There was not even a trace of a cloud. The sky was so brilliantly clear that it made me think of heaven. Then, I heard God's voice, boldly exclaiming "Be still, and know that I am God!" It made me feel very sorry that I doubted.

 

[Bible2]

I actually dont have a big problem with the Jesus character. he seems like a nice enough guy. he was hypocritical at times but arnt we all.

Jesus was never hypocritical. If he did something that he commands us not to do, that is because as God he is the only human who has the right to do it, such as judge other people (John 5:22, Matthew 7:1).

Also, to not have a problem with Jesus is to not have a problem with YHWH, because Jesus is one God with YHWH: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), and Jesus confirms that YHWH is God: "And Jesus answered [a man], The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these" (Mark 12:29-31).

Jesus was quoting from the Old Testament, the original Hebrew of which refers to YHWH: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD [YHWH] our God is one LORD [YHWH]: And thou shalt love the LORD [YHWH] thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD [YHWH]" (Leviticus 19:18).

The coming Antichrist, even though he may say that Jesus is a great guy, will still (like the ancient Gnostics) utterly revile YHWH: "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven" (Revelation 13:6), "and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods" (Daniel 11:36).

The Antichrist will deceive the world into turning away from YHWH, and into worshipping Lucifer (Satan/the dragon) and himself (the beast) instead: "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast" (Revelation 13:4).

how many religious wars have their been, how much loss of life has come as a direct result from religion.

Jesus commands Christians (who are under the New Covenant: Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31) never to employ violence against anyone, even in self-defense: "I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39). "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52).

if that is the kind of love that God gives then ill pass.

The kind of love that God gives is so extreme, that he came to die for us sinners, to save "the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28). "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement" (Romans 5:6-11).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:16-21).