Why doesn't God directly stop the evil of others?

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Some of us have free will.
There is no such thing as free will. The unbeliever wo rejects Christ is a prisoner of sin. He thinks he can do as he pleases, but it would be always something sinful even if it appears to be good. This is because his motives will always be selfish. The one thing he cannot do is to conduct himself as a godly person, because he does not have the Holy Spirit to enable him.

The godly believer who has received Christ is a bond-servant to Christ. He is committed to the will of God, and therefore does not do as he pleases. But he wants it that way because he knows that the will of God is the best way for him.
 
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disciple Clint

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There is no such thing as free will. The unbeliever wo rejects Christ is a prisoner of sin. He thinks he can do as he pleases, but it would be always something sinful even if it appears to be good. This is because his motives will always be selfish. The one thing he cannot do is to conduct himself as a godly person, because he does not have the Holy Spirit to enable him.

The godly believer who has received Christ is a bond-servant to Christ. He is committed to the will of God, and therefore does not do as he pleases. But he wants it that way because he knows that the will of God is the best way for him.
so if a believer can not do as he pleases and must do only the will of God as you have said, please explain why believers commit sins. Bit of a problem for your logic isnt it? God does not want robots, we all have free will, think it over.
 
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Why doesn't God directly stop the evil of others?

Who's evil, others evil, your evil is others evil to me, so when will God stop you from committing evil?

Only God can judge the level of evil in a perso s life and only God will judge you, me and everyone else on his day of justice.
 
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It says that God doesn't stop the free will of people who impose things on others because He wants us to be able to learn and that one day at the end times he will directly intervene and settle his scores with the evil and sinners. But this sounds little more than the equivalent of building a very good house and not stopping the bands of people that are coming in to your beloved house to steal, plunder, and smash everything to the point that when they do get punished in the end, there is literally no more house left to enjoy.

I think this makes the idea of patience worthless to because life and events do not wait. We are always told we need to be patient. If we have free will, then the least that can be is that God can bend his rules once in a while if people beg of him. I'm sorry, but it's just so frustrating. And if he did stop one person's free will to sin against 1000 other people, how does this necessarily imply that free will permanently breaks?
Imagine if everyone followed God's will. Your concern would be solved. Alas, this is not the case therefore those who follow the lust of the flesh rather than God's will for us cause the suffering we see in the world.
Be blessed
 
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com7fy8

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It says that God doesn't stop the free will of people who impose things on others because He wants us to be able to learn and that one day at the end times he will directly intervene and settle his scores with the evil and sinners.
Already, God is doing things to stop evil, to resist it, and to use it for His good outcome.

And yes there are things we can learn. But God is not only waiting until the end; but already He is managing things for His good.

So, why is there evil? This earth is where God has Satan and his kingdom . . . for now. This earth is being used as a prisoner-of-war camp for Satan and his evil. But we are here, too. And with God we can do what is good, and evil can not stop us while we do what God has us doing . . . whatever He is committed to doing with His children.
 
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God certainly could create a world without evil, but to create one without evil AND create freewill agents is quite a trick.

Firstly how would he prevent evil? Suspend the free will of anyone making an immoral choice? One problem, agents require free will, non-agents A.K.A. Robots make for bad love relationships.

Secondly, judging those who are evil leads humans to see God's wrath without properly perceiving his benevolence. As humans seem to focus on reporting evil and tragedy rather than good.

Thirdly, Imagine if an entire world lived with evil until they were completely fed up with it. Now they get a new body and mind that has no predisposition to do evil and has seen the horrible pain and suffering so they have a great desire to be obedient and not sin against others. Now these new beings could love freely due to their freewill, and would desire not to do evil, and be able to fulfill that desire.

The only way you get to that type of world is if you have an intermediate world suffused with evil.

Finally, we are called as Christians to help God govern his creation. We get to join him destroying Satans kingdom and bring the world under God's dominion. We get a trial run governing, before we go to heaven and join God's divine council to help him rule over creation.
 
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There is no such thing as free will.

The Bible is full of subjunctive conditional clauses my brother.

If you do A, then I will do B, else I will do C

Negation

If you don't do A, then I will do B.

Secondly, without free will we give up the ability to love or obey God. Robots are not described as "Obedient."

So we require a more nuanced approach in order to make sense of all the Biblical data it seems.
 
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God certainly could create a world without evil, but to create one without evil AND create freewill agents is quite a trick.

Firstly how would he prevent evil? Suspend the free will of anyone making an immoral choice? One problem, agents require free will, non-agents A.K.A. Robots make for bad love relationships.

Secondly, judging those who are evil leads humans to see God's wrath without properly perceiving his benevolence. As humans seem to focus on reporting evil and tragedy rather than good.

Thirdly, Imagine if an entire world lived with evil until they were completely fed up with it. Now they get a new body and mind that has no predisposition to do evil and has seen the horrible pain and suffering so they have a great desire to be obedient and not sin against others. Now these new beings could love freely due to their freewill, and would desire not to do evil, and be able to fulfill that desire.

The only way you get to that type of world is if you have an intermediate world suffused with evil.

Finally, we are called as Christians to help God govern his creation. We get to join him destroying Satans kingdom and bring the world under God's dominion. We get a trial run governing, before we go to heaven and join God's divine council to help him rule over creation.
For one thing, Heaven has no evil or sin in it. But it's interesting because the response used to justify the existence of free will is that one can't know good without knowing evil. Does that mean in Heaven the free will we currently enjoy will be limited or abridged? I can't think of any other answer.

I have such a hard time with 'faith'.
 
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For one thing, Heaven has no evil or sin in it. But it's interesting because the response used to justify the existence of free will is that one can't know good without knowing evil. Does that mean in Heaven the free will we currently enjoy will be limited or abridged? I can't think of any other answer.

I have such a hard time with 'faith'.
By way of explanation - no debate:

I think we can get caught up with philosophy over this. Free will is an illusion. No one actually has free will. We can't do what we like. In society we are bound by the laws of the land. We are also limited by our own conscience which informs us concerning what is right or wrong. Even God doesn't have absolute free will. He is governed by His own moral law. He is righteous in all His ways. For example, He cannot lie.

An unconverted person is in bondage to the law of sin and death. He cannot choose other than to sin. Even when he chooses moral actions, it will have the basis of selfishness. Even when he does loving actions, it is with the view of what he can get out of it for himself, even if it is the sense of personal satisfaction.

The definition of evil is the breach of the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments describe the perfect set of instructions for righteous living. Take just one commandment away, and they are incomplete. Add a commandment and then we have something superfluous that is already covered by one of the others.

God is bound to act so as to intend the best for the universe and everyone in it. He cannot do otherwise. Conversion to Christ involves total transformation of heart and life by the Holy Spirit. The convert is bound to be conformed to the image of Christ, to love God above all others, and to love others as he loves himself. This means that he wants to live a holy life and all his actions be righteous ones. Therefore he works to have his will totally in synch with the will of God for him. The Scripture says: "Be not unwise, but understanding what the will of God is." Therefore, he knows that being unaware of God's will for his life is being unwise, and that is not acceptable for him. Therefore he doesn't have free will in the sense that he can desire to God's will one day, and then not God's will the next.

That's what Paul is saying in Romans 7. He desires to follow God's holy and righteous Law of the spirit of life in Christ in his heart, but he finds another law in his flesh that struggles against it. It is that he wants to lay his flesh on God's altar, but it roars and struggles to get off and have its own way. Paul hates having the flesh warring against the Spirit, and so he gives full effort to buffet the flesh into submission.

If an unconverted person says he has free will to do has he pleases, tell him to try living a righteous life in Christ through faith. He will find that he won't be able to. He will go back into sinful acts every time. What this means in that he is bound to the law of sin and death, and therefore cannot do anything outside of it. This is why conversion to Christ is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit in a person. This is what enables the person to forsake the works of the flesh and to have the fruit of the Spirit develop in his life.

Just a thought on faith. Faith has to have a foundation. It is not a matter of "I believe it, therefore it is true." That is the philosophical faith in faith, or existentialism. True Gospel faith has its foundation in the written promises of God in the Scriptures. This kind of faith says, "God has promises [such and such] in His Word and I believe them, therefore it is true for me."
Such as John 3:16: "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but will have eternal life." This means that if I turn to Christ and believe on and trust in Him, I won't perish but will be saved and have eternal life." So why does the person believes they are saved" Because John 3:16 says so.
 
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It says that God doesn't stop the free will of people who impose things on others because He wants us to be able to learn and that one day at the end times he will directly intervene and settle his scores with the evil and sinners. But this sounds little more than the equivalent of building a very good house and not stopping the bands of people that are coming in to your beloved house to steal, plunder, and smash everything to the point that when they do get punished in the end, there is literally no more house left to enjoy.

I think this makes the idea of patience worthless to because life and events do not wait. We are always told we need to be patient. If we have free will, then the least that can be is that God can bend his rules once in a while if people beg of him. I'm sorry, but it's just so frustrating. And if he did stop one person's free will to sin against 1000 other people, how does this necessarily imply that free will permanently breaks?
In Matthew Chapter 13, there is a story about wheat being grown in a field. While the farmer was sleeping, someone who didn't like him planted a bunch of weeds in the same field. The farmer noticed what happened as they grew, but could not remove the weeds without destroying the wheat crops before they grew to maturity. So the farmer had to wait until the harvest.

In the same way God is waiting for the harvest. As illustrated in the discussion between Abraham and God regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, God would have spared it if there were even 10 righteous in it, but there weren't so it became the dead sea. The example of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of what happens in the end, but not a reflection of how God manages the day-to-day.

Job even said, there should be specified days when evil doers are judged, so it's a common idea going back millennia - why doesn't God stop it? It's because it's up to us. God gave the world to us as humans, and it is up to us to take care of it.
 
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James_Lai

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It says that God doesn't stop the free will of people who impose things on others because He wants us to be able to learn and that one day at the end times he will directly intervene and settle his scores with the evil and sinners. But this sounds little more than the equivalent of building a very good house and not stopping the bands of people that are coming in to your beloved house to steal, plunder, and smash everything to the point that when they do get punished in the end, there is literally no more house left to enjoy.

I think this makes the idea of patience worthless to because life and events do not wait. We are always told we need to be patient. If we have free will, then the least that can be is that God can bend his rules once in a while if people beg of him. I'm sorry, but it's just so frustrating. And if he did stop one person's free will to sin against 1000 other people, how does this necessarily imply that free will permanently breaks?

Free will is an illusion. We are bound by multiple laws and our tendencies. We are machines executing a program within a system. To consider each one of us as being totally independent decision makers I think is pure madness. I believe God does intervene and impose even more limitations to our world and human actions. When, how and why - a big big question, I have my vague theories but no clear answer. God wants sin to flourish because life is impossible without sin. If God removed sin, life as we know it would immediately cease. It’s integral part of Creation in the world we know and experience. It’s bad, but it’s reality. Take it or leave it, so to speak.

There’s also a highly cyclical nature to our world, which could be a consequence of what fundamental physical/spiritual laws are in force or could be the result of a projection of higher dimensions onto our 4-dimensional existence (or appearance of linear unidirectional time in a 3D spacial existence).
 
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disciple Clint

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Free will is an illusion. We are bound by multiple laws and our tendencies. We are machines executing a program within a system. To consider each one of us as being totally independent decision makers I think is pure madness. I believe God does intervene and impose even more limitations to our world and human actions. When, how and why - a big big question, I have my vague theories but no clear answer. God wants sin to flourish because life is impossible without sin. If God removed sin, life as we know it would immediately cease. It’s integral part of Creation in the world we know and experience. It’s bad, but it’s reality. Take it or leave it, so to speak.

There’s also a highly cyclical nature to our world, which could be a consequence of what fundamental physical/spiritual laws are in force or could be the result of a projection of higher dimensions onto our 4-dimensional existence (or appearance of linear unidirectional time in a 3D spacial existence).
There is definitely and illusion here but is not on God's part.
 
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But it's interesting because the response used to justify the existence of free will is that one can't know good without knowing evil. Does that mean in Heaven the free will we currently enjoy will be limited or abridged? I can't think of any other answer.

This was not my argument.

I'm not justifying free will using knowledge of evil I'm assuming free will as axiomatic to love and agency in general. We don't have loving robots. Or computers that gain agency. All the things we consider to be the highest good are a function of an underlying capability, free will to choose the good.

I'm am justifying a world with evil due to human free will, that is transformed by God into heaven with free will agents whom have learned to freely obey God, know and have experienced the consequences of evil free choices, and have new body/soul composite that is not so easily drawn to evil choices.

So God wants to:

1 - share governorship of Earth and later Heaven with mankind.
2 - have a free agent who can freely love him

God has created a world that precedes Heaven to select those who want to serve him and be in relationship with him. They know the good via introspection of their faculties not through experiencing evil. So all mankind with properly functioning faculties (even people who claim to be atheists), have the same moral code written into the firmware of their souls.

What man gets out of suffering evil is the desire to be obedient to God's revelation of objective moral values and duties, not knowledge of evil per se.
 
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We are machines executing a program within a system.
Probably need a whole thread on this topic.

So if your proposal above is true then the following statements would also seem to be true:

Moral good or evil don't exist

Love for parents, children, spouse or partner don't exist

Rationality about the world and what is real doesn't exist

Seems like your previous posts assume some of the above.
 
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I think we can get caught up with philosophy over this. Free will is an illusion. No one actually has free will. We can't do what we like. In society we are bound by the laws of the land. We are also limited by our own conscience which informs us concerning what is right or wrong. Even God doesn't have absolute free will. He is governed by His own moral law. He is righteous in all His ways. For example, He cannot lie.

I think we may have to get caught up in philosophy (also known as rationality).

Premise 1 - The Bible contains God's knowledge that he considers helpful/necessary for humans to live the way God designed them to live.

Premise 2 - The Bible is filled with subjunctive conditional statements (if humans do X then I will do A, else I will do B).

Argument
Therefore if the commands in the Bible are truly from God, then God has created everyone with free will to fulfill same.
 
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I think we may have to get caught up in philosophy (also known as rationality).

Premise 1 - The Bible contains God's knowledge that he considers helpful/necessary for humans to live the way God designed them to live.

Premise 2 - The Bible is filled with subjunctive conditional statements (if humans do X then I will do A, else I will do B).

Argument
Therefore if the commands in the Bible are truly from God, then God has created everyone with free will to fulfill same.
It all depends on one's definition of free will.
The free will as an illusion that I am talking about is one's freedom to do exactly what they choose to do without being subject to any consequences for their actions.

A terrorist can take an automatic weapon and kill 50 innocent people in a mall, and not think that he will have to be called to account for his actions. He can think that he has free will to do anything he desires, but it is an illusion because the police are on the scene and he is shot dead or if he is captured, spends the rest of his life in prison.

Free will in that sense is an illusion also because one cannot choose the consequences for his actions. So one decides to live a totally sinful lifestyle and the consequence is judgment and hell, they cannot choose any alternative consequence. Therefore their "free will" is limited by cause and effect. One can decide through their own free choice to drive at speed on the wrong side of the road, but cannot choose to avoid a head-on crash that would most certain kill them and the innocent driver coming the other way.

The Christian believer who says, "Not my will but Thine be done" is certainly not exercising total free will. They are choosing to commit their will to God's will.

I don't have free will in my home. Although I am the head of my home, whatever my wife says shall be done! :)
 
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It all depends on one's definition of free will.
The free will as an illusion that I am talking about is one's freedom to do exactly what they choose to do without being subject to any consequences for their actions.

A terrorist can take an automatic weapon and kill 50 innocent people in a mall, and not think that he will have to be called to account for his actions. He can think that he has free will to do anything he desires, but it is an illusion because the police are on the scene and he is shot dead or if he is captured, spends the rest of his life in prison.

Free will in that sense is an illusion also because one cannot choose the consequences for his actions. So one decides to live a totally sinful lifestyle and the consequence is judgment and hell, they cannot choose any alternative consequence. Therefore their "free will" is limited by cause and effect. One can decide through their own free choice to drive at speed on the wrong side of the road, but cannot choose to avoid a head-on crash that would most certain kill them and the innocent driver coming the other way.

The Christian believer who says, "Not my will but Thine be done" is certainly not exercising total free will. They are choosing to commit their will to God's will.

I don't have free will in my home. Although I am the head of my home, whatever my wife says shall be done! :)
Can't have your cake and eat it too I guess.
 
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It says that God doesn't stop the free will of people who impose things on others because He wants us to be able to learn and that one day at the end times he will directly intervene and settle his scores with the evil and sinners. But this sounds little more than the equivalent of building a very good house and not stopping the bands of people that are coming in to your beloved house to steal, plunder, and smash everything to the point that when they do get punished in the end, there is literally no more house left to enjoy.

I think this makes the idea of patience worthless to because life and events do not wait. We are always told we need to be patient. If we have free will, then the least that can be is that God can bend his rules once in a while if people beg of him. I'm sorry, but it's just so frustrating. And if he did stop one person's free will to sin against 1000 other people, how does this necessarily imply that free will permanently breaks?

I think the scriptures are notoriously silent on why God allows evil. The Book of Job captures it by God's rhetorical question, "Job, where were you when I created this?" That's God's way of saying it's beyond us.

On the other hand, the scriptures are full of what God is doing. God is showing us evil and its destructive power are nothing compared to the God who brings things into existence and raises the dead. The scriptures give us no answers to our Why? questions that always look back. But they give us what we need to go forward in hope. That is, if we trust that Christ overcomes sin, evil, and death we can go forward in a way that is fitting. I think it's about perspective. God wants us moving forward.
 
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Can't have your cake and eat it too I guess.
True. Either one is in bondage to sin, doing the devil's will, or is set free from the law of sin and death to be committed to God's will.
 
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