Why doesnt creationism need any data?

[British Bulldog]

You'll have a better handle on it after He intervenes in your own life.
Until then, my experiences can't help you much.

But we've established that He doesn't intervene. So I'll be waiting for intervention in vain, just as all those miillions currently starving in Somalia will be waiting for His intervention in vain.

 

[Non sequitur]

He has. When I've asked, then trusted.
I figured out that He told me what to ask for, then provided it,
but the whole process was a gift, anda miracle.

Are you in opposite-universe talking to Santa Claus?

 

[SkyWriting]

Are you in opposite-universe talking to Santa Claus?

It's an option for everybody. That's not the name I use for Him.
But He's there all right.

There are a few prerequisites. In order for the request to be
not from ones ego, its better to pray for others. The more
actual, real need the other person has, the more likely you'll
be able to get your ego out of the way and see God work
results. Plus you have to give up trying, and just hand it
over to God. That's the ego thing again. It's quite hard.
But eventually you do the work of getting out of the way
and miracles happen right before your eyes.

Like the time I was driving in pouring rain and needed a
dry clearing to pull over and help a disabled person in
need. At the moment I "handed it over" a clearing appeared
and we stepped out of the van onto dry ground.

You would say the clearing was there the whole time.
But only I know the timing that took place in the
dialog in my head. To anybody else, it's was just "good fortune."

Some may live in the world of fortune cookies, while I live in opposite-world with God.

 

[SkyWriting]

But we've established that He doesn't intervene. So I'll be waiting for intervention in vain, just as all those miillions currently starving in Somalia will be waiting for His intervention in vain.

I don't recall our agreement.
I don't think you know any Somalians or have contributed a penny to help.
There are hungry people on your block that you're ignoring.

Let the unfit die so evolution can continue.
People like you have killed evolution.

 

[SkyWriting]

Please show me this data, or cite a source, which shows believers understanding of the past and the future helping them not killing themselves, as opposed to non-believers.

I hate doing this because reality tends to kill conversations with non-believers.
In More Religious Countries, Lower Suicide Rates

 

[British Bulldog]

I don't recall our agreement.
I don't think you know any Somalians.
There are hungry people on your block that you're ignoring.

Let the unfit die so evolution can continue.
People like you have killed evolution.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up evolution when we are discussing God's non-intervention policy. The biologist's view of nature accounts very well for the vast amount of suffering and wasteful death we see in the world. Your's doesn't. The only way you can retain your belief in an interventionist God in the face of the vast mountain of evidence presented by history and the world around us that man is on his own, is to wear blinkers.

For instance, your example of the fortuitous dry clearing and the disabled man. You attribute this to intervention by God. Yet on that same day many millions of people around the world would have been suffering terrible pain and misery without any relief, and many would have died unpleasant deaths, including deaths in childbirth and infants of diseases like malaria. But God didn't do anything for them, instead, according to you, He chose to single out your unremarkable case in favour of all the other deserving cases, apparently because you are a selfless Christian who is one of God's good guys. Doesn't that strike you as both ludicrously unlikely and randomly callous?

 

[Jazer]

God's non-intervention policy.

It can be difficult if you kill the people God sends to help you.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. mat 23 37

 

[hasone]

I hate doing this because reality tends to kill conversations with non-believers.
In More Religious Countries, Lower Suicide Rates

The study also suggests that homicide is positively correlated with the religiosity of a country. So, in religious countries you are less likely to kill yourself, but other people are more likely to kill you. I'd have to see which one was the bigger effect before making decisions on that data.

Gallup usually does good work, so I'm inclined to believe the study.

However, the study does not establish a correlation between religiosity and "a better understanding of the past and the future" and only posits hypothetical explanations. It could be used as a powerful piece of evidence in many arguments you would wish to make, but you've got to acknowledge its limitations first. In fact, the hypothesis it does provide, namely "religious people are more likely to consider immoral" is not, in fact, the hypothesis that "believers have a better understanding of the past and the future". It also provides data for that hypothesis, where you have not provided data for yours.

 

[BondiHarry]

But we've established that God is non-interventionist. The phenomenal amount of pain, suffering and cruelty in the world carries on without God raising a finger. That is not disputed. So why does anyone imagine God is the least bit concerned about them when, as can be shown, He has never intervened to help anyone else?

You really need to dig into the Bible.

God is intimately involved in the affairs of men so if you think 'we've established that God is non-interventionist' you're quite mistaken.

There is a phenomenal amount of pain, suffering and cruelty in the world but how can you think God has not raised a finger? He has sent His prophets, He has walked the earth as Jesus to teach us directly on how we should live, He has called His people to be a light in this world and He is always there for those who truly seek Him so your claim is very much disputed.

I hope you recognize the hypocrisy of carnal men. On the one hand they declare they don't need or want God in their lives yet when God grants their desires that He not intervene in their lives they curse Him because of the pain, suffering and cruelty that they themselves bring into the world. How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world? You should consider what it would mean for God to remove the evil doer from the world so the rest of mankind could live in peace. You might not even be able to muster enough people to have a bridge tournament. If God removed all evil doers from the world, it wouldn't be just the rapists, thieves or murderers; it would also be the fornicators, adulterers, liars, bearers of false witness, drunkards, the divorced (with the few exceptions that God does allow) and so forth. People want God to stop evil until its an evil they enjoy and then its 'keep your hands off, God'.

 

[British Bulldog]

You really need to dig into the Bible.

God is intimately involved in the affairs of men so if you think 'we've established that God is non-interventionist' you're quite mistaken.

There is a phenomenal amount of pain, suffering and cruelty in the world but how can you think God has not raised a finger? He has sent His prophets, He has walked the earth as Jesus to teach us directly on how we should live, He has called His people to be a light in this world and He is always there for those who truly seek Him so your claim is very much disputed.

I hope you recognize the hypocrisy of carnal men. On the one hand they declare they don't need or want God in their lives yet when God grants their desires that He not intervene in their lives they curse Him because of the pain, suffering and cruelty that they themselves bring into the world. How can a loving God allow so much evil in the world? You should consider what it would mean for God to remove the evil doer from the world so the rest of mankind could live in peace. You might not even be able to muster enough people to have a bridge tournament. If God removed all evil doers from the world, it wouldn't be just the rapists, thieves or murderers; it would also be the fornicators, adulterers, liars, bearers of false witness, drunkards, the divorced (with the few exceptions that God does allow) and so forth. People want God to stop evil until its an evil they enjoy and then its 'keep your hands off, God'.

1. The Bible doesn't reduce suffering. It's caused a fair bit, but that's another story.

2. Even if we take the Prophets at face value, they do nothing to alleviate suffering in the world.

3. Man-made suffering accounts for only a small percentage of human sufferiing the world. The vast majority, both now and throughout history, has been from disease (malaria being the number 1 killer), other illnesses (cancer etc) and environmental factors like famine. Whatever the cause of the suffering, God does nothing.

 

[BondiHarry]

1. The Bible doesn't reduce suffering.

When it is not used you're right, it won't reduce suffering.

It's caused a fair bit, but that's another story.

And what suffering has the gospel of Jesus Christ caused? (granted the world may cause His followers to suffer because the world hates God but the gospel itself has caused no suffering)

2. Even if we take the Prophets at face value, they do nothing to alleviate suffering in the world

When their counsel from God is ignored you're right, they do nothing to alleviate the suffering in the world.

3. Man-made suffering accounts for only a small percentage of human sufferiing the world.

To the contrary, the evil of men has caused un-imaginable suffering.

The vast majority, both now and throughout history, has been from disease (malaria being the number 1 killer), other illnesses (cancer etc) and environmental factors like famine. Whatever the cause of the suffering, God does nothing.

Really? Men do a great many things to make themselves sick which they could have avoided by simply following God's instructions on things from diet to sex. Quite a few famines have been the result of man imposed conditions.

As for God doing nothing as you claim, God is under no obligation to aid those who disobey Him. He does consistantly and constantly aid those who do obey Him so if you're not seeing God's work in your life perhaps it is because of that 'do not enter' sign you've put up.

 

[British Bulldog]

As for God doing nothing as you claim, God is under no obligation to aid those who disobey Him. He does consistantly and constantly aid those who do obey Him so if you're not seeing God's work in your life perhaps it is because of that 'do not enter' sign you've put up.

So according to you He only helps those who deserve His help, yes?

 

[selfinflikted]

It's an option for everybody. That's not the name I use for Him.
But He's there all right.

There are a few prerequisites. In order for the request to be
not from ones ego, its better to pray for others. The more
actual, real need the other person has, the more likely you'll
be able to get your ego out of the way and see God work
results. Plus you have to give up trying, and just hand it
over to God. That's the ego thing again. It's quite hard.
But eventually you do the work of getting out of the way
and miracles happen right before your eyes.

Like the time I was driving in pouring rain and needed a
dry clearing to pull over and help a disabled person in
need. At the moment I "handed it over" a clearing appeared
and we stepped out of the van onto dry ground.

You would say the clearing was there the whole time.
But only I know the timing that took place in the
dialog in my head. To anybody else, it's was just "good fortune."

Some may live in the world of fortune cookies, while I live in opposite-world with God.

Yes. God makes a dry spot in the rain so you can help someone out, but he couldn't do anything, to use an earlier analogy, to help the millions of lives lost during the holocaust.

This makes perfect sense.

Just like The devout Christian, who's late for work because they can't find their car keys, can send a quick shout-out to god and god will magically help them find their keys so they can be on their merry way. But he can't ease the pain and suffering so many are enduring in the world because lost key are so much more important.

Yes. Perfect sense.

Open palm, insert face.

 

[BondiHarry]

So according to you He only helps those who deserve His help, yes?

If you were familiar with God's word in the Bible you would know the answer to that. If you're not familiar with God's word in the Bible I would hope you would compare whatever I might say about who God helps with what the Bible says. And what I've said is that God is under no obligation to help those who do not obey Him and, ONCE AGAIN, if you were familiar with the Bible NONE of us 'deserve' God's help as we all have sinned but yes, God does smile upon His adopted children and as a good Father provides for us.

 

[British Bulldog]

If you were familiar with God's word in the Bible you would know the answer to that. If you're not familiar with God's word in the Bible I would hope you would compare whatever I might say about who God helps with what the Bible says. And what I've said is that God is under no obligation to help those who do not obey Him and, ONCE AGAIN, if you were familiar with the Bible NONE of us 'deserve' God's help as we all have sinned but yes, God does smile upon His adopted children and as a good Father provides for us.

So that's a yes then, with all the problems for you that that answer involves.

 

[BondiHarry]

So that's a yes then, with all the problems for you that that answer involves.

Sigh (I said check the Bible, you'll find the answer in the Bible and you got the answer wrong).

He makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

 

[British Bulldog]

Sigh (I said check the Bible, you'll find the answer in the Bible and you got the answer wrong).

He makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

And then He sits back and ignores everything that happens. You won't find any evidence to the contrary. When you are next scared witless, remember that.

 

[BondiHarry]

And then He sits back and ignores everything that happens. You won't find any evidence to the contrary. When you are next scared witless, remember that.

My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to always be ready, no matter when it may overtake me.
-Stonewall Jacson

God does not give us the spirit of fear British Bulldog. I am at peace no matter what comes be it violence, poverty or death because I know the Lord is my shepherd and I shall not want.

 

[British Bulldog]

My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to always be ready, no matter when it may overtake me.
-Stonewall Jacson

God does not give us the spirit of fear British Bulldog. I am at peace no matter what comes be it violence, poverty or death because I know the Lord is my shepherd and I shall not want.

That's nice. So if you get a horrible cancer next year, as many people will, that'll just be God telling you that you need a bit of pain and misery for the good of your soul.

 

[Non sequitur]

I hate doing this because reality tends to kill conversations with non-believers.
In More Religious Countries, Lower Suicide Rates

http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/atheist-dont-commit-as-much-crime-as-the-religious-do

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate