Why does this seem to keep happening here?

[RDKirk]

No one is free from sin Michael, not even you. I am Catholic, you know full well what we believe.

There is a current thread on that.

But has Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin, or has He not?

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
....
"Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." -- John 8

Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. -- Romans 6

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?
....
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6

So what does all that mean, if we say, "No one is free from sin?"

 

[RDKirk]

There are no rules about that.

Words have meanings. If everyone's attitude about the meanings of words is "there are not rules about that," then all language becomes is a bunch of grunts.

 

[Alithis]

Words have meanings. If everyone's attitude about the meanings of words is "there are not rules about that," then all language becomes is a bunch of grunts.

Cessationist believe the gifts of the holy spirit ended. And all the lies that implies.
That is no different to implying other things ended ...

 

[Boidae]

Cessationist believe the gifts of the holy spirit ended. And all the lies that implies.
That is no different to implying other things ended ...

I never said that the gifts of the holy spirit have ended. That is bearing false witness against me, Michael.

Bearing false witness is a sin.

 

[Boidae]

There is a current thread on that.

But has Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin, or has He not?

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
....
"Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." -- John 8

Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. -- Romans 6

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?
....
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6

So what does all that mean, if we say, "No one is free from sin?"

I wish I could answer that, but I cannot. These are topics for which I am not good at explaining myself.

All I know is that we all fall short of the mark that God says is sin. So we all sin. We strive to stop sinning and become more Christ like each day as Christians, but we will still sin, and there is forgiveness for that sin.

I will kindly leave you to this thread as I am bowing out.

 

[Alithis]

I never said that the gifts of the holy spirit have ended. That is bearing false witness against me, Michael.

Bearing false witness is a sin.

and i never said you said that
, i said your cessationist by the fact you perpetuate mary as a co mediator ,thus saying that the role of the lord Jesus as the ONLY mediator has "ceased"
but i never have expectations of honesty from the rcc,just ambiguity and misdirection.

 

[Boidae]

and i never said you said that
, i said your cessationist by the fact you perpetuate mary as a co mediator ,thus saying that the role of the lord Jesus as the ONLY mediator has "ceased"
but i never have expectations of honesty from the rcc,just ambiguity and misdirection.

One last post because I think the above deserves a reply.

Again, you are wrong. Did I say anything about Mary? Maybe you do not know anything about the Catholic church.

While praying to Mary is encouraged, it is not required. I do not pray to Mary at all. I choose not to pray to Mary. I have never once said the rosary. I don't pray to the saints either. I don't have statues of Mary around the house or any saints.

None of the above is required of any Catholic. So, please ask questions before making assumptions about me. It may also do you well to learn more about what is truly required of Catholics from the Catholic church. You may be surprised about what you thought you knew really isn't what you thought you knew.

Now, I'm out.

 

[Alithis]

One last post because I think the above deserves a reply.

Again, you are wrong. Did I say anything about Mary? Maybe you do not know anything about the Catholic church.

While praying to Mary is encouraged, it is not required. I do not pray to Mary at all. I choose not to pray to Mary. I have never once said the rosary. I don't pray to the saints either. I don't have statues of Mary around the house or any saints.

None of the above is required of any Catholic. So, please ask questions before making assumptions about me. It may also do you well to learn more about what is truly required of Catholics from the Catholic church. You may be surprised about what you thought you knew really isn't what you thought you knew.

Now, I'm out.

by not forbidding that which is blatantly sinful you "perpetuate it"
you know its going on yet you dont forbid it.
.
such unity with such things is false unity

 

[mourningdove~]

Why does this seem to keep happening here?

No doubt there are many reasons ...

And while persons of the cessationist belief do occasionally 'pass thru' here, there are other reasons, too.

Sometimes what I see are persons that have become very cynical ... disbelieving ... when it comes to the spiritual gifts ...

Perhaps because they themselves have been 'burned' ... fooled, deceived ... at one time or another, they no longer believe that anyone has a real experience with the gifts. Their hearts have become hardened towards the subject. They distrust anyone who claims to have had a real experience with God in this way. Since they were deceived; they believe everyone else must be, too.

And if they haven't yet humbled themselves and sought the help of God to work thru their own deceptive experiences, these same persons can become deeply embittered and therefore quick to 'jump' on anyone who talks of spiritual experiences. And even become accusatory.

But I want to encourage the OP, and others here: do not be discouraged. Do not let others wrongfully discourage you about the spiritual gifts of God.

It is vitally important to be discerning in these things; the cost of deception can be very high to one's life. But the fact that we may have been deceived does not now make 'null and void' the true manifestations of the Spirit.

The Spirit of God is still very much ALIVE ... active and living and moving and working in and thru our lives ... revealing, guiding, teaching, leading, loving, gifting, empowering ... planting faith, hope, and love in our hearts ... and joy, too!

In Nehemiah 8:10 we read: The joy of the Lord is our strength.

... If one truly believes that, then one will surely not want to allow disbelieving, disillusioned others to 'steal' the joy from his/her heart.

 

[Blade]

....................

 

[spiritfilledjm]

No doubt there are many reasons ...

And while persons of the cessationist belief do occasionally 'pass thru' here, there are other reasons, too.

Sometimes what I see are persons that have become very cynical ... disbelieving ... when it comes to the spiritual gifts ...

Perhaps because they themselves have been 'burned' ... fooled, deceived ... at one time or another, they no longer believe that anyone has a real experience with the gifts. Their hearts have become hardened towards the subject. They distrust anyone who claims to have had a real experience with God in this way. Since they were deceived; they believe everyone else must be, too.

And if they haven't yet humbled themselves and sought the help of God to work thru their own deceptive experiences, these same persons can become deeply embittered and therefore quick to 'jump' on anyone who talks of spiritual experiences. And even become accusatory.

But I want to encourage the OP, and others here: do not be discouraged. Do not let others wrongfully discourage you about the spiritual gifts of God.

It is vitally important to be discerning in these things; the cost of deception can be very high to one's life. But the fact that we may have been deceived does not now make 'null and void' the true manifestations of the Spirit.

The Spirit of God is still very much ALIVE ... active and living and moving and working in and thru our lives ... revealing, guiding, teaching, leading, loving, gifting, empowering ... planting faith, hope, and love in our hearts ... and joy, too!

In Nehemiah 8:10 we read: The joy of the Lord is our strength.

... If one truly believes that, then one will surely not want to allow disbelieving, disillusioned others to 'steal' the joy from his/her heart.

Man, if this wasn't me for about 10 years or more...not the jumping on people. I always said that the Bible was not clear enough and acknowledged that how one worships God has no bearing on how I worship. However, it wasn't for me. That is literally what I said when I was asked about the gifts and being baptized in the Holy Spirit. What caused this sudden departure? I was, as you put it, burned. My faith stagnated and I eventually stopped believing for about 4 years. I converted to Islam. I am now back and back to being a spiritfilled believer again.

 

[lismore]

Hello All. I would advise we be cautious about throwing labels about or generalising too far. 'Cessationists'. The term might serve to alienate people rather than encouraging fellowship. If we were to meet someone who believes that the gift of tongues is not for today, but that person is a believer who believes that God speaks through his inspired word, I would not class that person as a 'Cessationist'. If that person believes God speaks today through his word that is some common ground to be built on. God speaks+we listen=hope.

 

[RDKirk]

Hello All. I would advise we be cautious about throwing labels about or generalising too far. 'Cessationists'. The term might serve to alienate people rather than encouraging fellowship. If we were to meet someone who believes that the gift of tongues is not for today, but that person is a believer who believes that God speaks through his inspired word, I would not class that person as a 'Cessationist'. If that person believes God speaks today through his word that is some common ground to be built on. God speaks+we listen=hope.

Well, Anto9us proposed that we could merely acknowledge the possibility of any kind of manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit continuing today, and the Cessationists in the the thread disputed even that.

If someone says that the only communication between believers and God is the reading of scripture, I'd have to call him a Cessationist and the very definition of "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof."

 

[Jon Osterman]

Surely part of the issue is that the categorizations are so poor. I would regard myself as "spirit filled" and I certainly don't believe that spiritual gifts have ceased. However, I am still wary of people who speak in tongues and prophesy because I believe that many (most?) of them are charlatans (or at least self deceived). So presumably you would hold the opinion that I should not be allowed to post in this section? But looking at your statement of purpose, I don't see any impediment to my posting.

Maybe you need to make it clearer in the statement that any doubting of a display of spiritual gifts is unacceptable.

 

[RDKirk]

Surely part of the issue is that the categorizations are so poor. I would regard myself as "spirit filled" and I certainly don't believe that spiritual gifts have ceased. However, I am still wary of people who speak in tongues and prophesy because I believe that many (most?) of them are charlatans (or at least self deceived). So presumably you would hold the opinion that I should not be allowed to post in this section? But looking at your statement of purpose, I don't see any impediment to my posting.

Maybe you need to make it clearer in the statement that any doubting of a display of spiritual gifts is unacceptable.

Who is the "you" you're responding to?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No one is free from sin Michael, not even you. I am Catholic, you know full well what we believe.

My wife was brought up strict Catholic, educated in Catholic schools. One day a Baptist lady at our daughter's playgroup asked her if she had accepted Christ. My wife came home and asked me what that meant. I asked her, "How does a non-Catholic get inducted into the Catholic Church? She said, "I know that" and she went right through the processing using Catholic terminology. I discovered that in essence it was the process one must go through to accept Christ as Saviour! When I told her that, she was satisfied.

I am a Pentecostal Calvinist. My foundation is Puritan Reformed Calvinist doctrine, mixed with Pentecostal theology (those parts of it that are not Arminian). To be married to a Catholic educated woman is quite an education for me, and we have been happily married for 28 years. We accept each other for who we are (although when she gets a bit angry at some soap opera bad character I tell her that St Pius wouldn't like that! Hahahaha! And she says, "Are you making fun of my religion?" and I say, "Yep!" But we both know it is just banter.

We both watched a 2 hour documentary about why Pope Benedict resigned (on the History channel). It was fascinating. We both enjoyed it together.

If more Christians of different denominations, Protestant and Catholic (and Lutheran) had the same tolerance and harmony my wife and I have over Christian matters, what a wonderful Church we would have!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is a current thread on that.

But has Jesus freed us from the bondage of sin, or has He not?

"To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
....
"Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." -- John 8

Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. -- Romans 6

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God?
....
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6

So what does all that mean, if we say, "No one is free from sin?"

It is interesting that Catholic theology is neither Calvinist or Arminian. Catholics believe implicitly that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose again to give us eternal life. But they teach that we have to live the life, and confess every known sin. I'm sure that Catholics confess their sins to God, but they follow the Scripture that tells them to confess their faults to a trusted brother in Christ, and they see the parish priest as that person. The priest is being Scriptural in absolving the sin after it is confessed, because the Scripture says in 1 Corinthians, (Paul speaking), "Whatever you forgive, I forgive". So, that Scripture says that Paul can forgive sins in Jesus Name, and that is exactly what the priest does.

I did Catholic theology for my M.Div, and I discovered that there is more in it that unites us than divides us. Really, what is the difference between following the policies of the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the General Superintendent of the AOG, or the Moderator of the Presbyterian Church? If we want to be part of those organisations, we have to follow their rules. If we don't want to follow those policies then there is always a church down the road where we can follow policies that are more acceptable to us.

I think that sometimes we get so religiously minded that we are no earthly use. When one of the disciples asked what was going to happen to John, Jesus said, "What is that to you? Follow Me." So my view is, who cares if people obey the Pope, or pray to Mary and the Saints, or follow liturgical services? What is that to me? My role in life is to follow Jesus and let others be who they want to be without bashing them over the head with our big black Bibles and theological baseball bats!