Why does the world need to "end"?

[Jamdoc]

God does have feelings, nor does He have thoughts like us. Scripture conveys God in language that is relative to our experience, but He is beyond them in Himself. Sure, you can say that God expects us to repent, if only you understand that as a human analogy of His patience. You can say that God changes His mind, if only you understand that it is from our perspective in the way He has planned to direct the course of history through our actions. God is not like us, so we must understand these ways of describing Him as a concession to our finite grasp. His wrath is not like our anger, it is our perspective of His justice.

That didn't at all address the question.

God creates man
God determines that man being alone is not good
God creates woman, and marriage and commands them to be fruitful and multiply
this is all pre fall, it is not a product of the fall that needs to be corrected.
the fall happens, childbirth becomes painful (before the first child was ever born), but was perhaps not originally designed to be so. Death happens, originally not intended, and there's a plan for redemption that restores man and woman's relationship with God and removes the curse of death and pain and suffering. All sounds good.

But that plan for redemption also includes changing mind about how men and women are to exist together, and abolishes childbirth (except 1 verse from Isaiah 65 that may indicate childbirth still occurs, even if marriage does not, but many people apply that to Millennial Kingdom, so I'm not sure how that plays out, because it also explicitly says new heavens and new earth. It's a mystery to me. Then again, if marriage is not existing but childbirth is.. that still represents a change in male/female relationships as fornication is sin). So something good is permanently LOST due to the fall, the restoration does not restore it, indicating that God changed His mind from what He initially designed which was man + woman + God in fellowship, with man having dominion on the Earth and repopulating it. The restored plan is Man + God, Woman + God, but not Man + Woman + God.
It's a change from pre-fall conditions and order in creation.

so changed mind, and something good permanently lost to the fall.

 

[timothyu]

Are we our bodies or is our identity the data within.

 

[Jamdoc]

For the time he had left to deal with His mission. Was He transformed upon resurrection or upon lifting into the clouds so to . Why maintain the wounds in Heaven? We receive a new heaven and earth but who is to say it will be as we now comprehend it? Perhaps this old ant farm is obsolete.

when John witnesses Him in Revelation 1, He's still a man.

also Zechariah 13 has Jesus still with wounds in His hands, after those who pierced Him see Him at His return.

at no point, in earthly ministry, in transfiguration, after revelation, or after the second coming is Jesus ever portrayed as some gender non binary FREAK ABOMINATION.

 

[Jamdoc]

Are we our bodies or is our identity the data within.

Both.
God created us to exist as corporeal beings, sin corrupted it, the new birth puts a spirit that is at war with the body, but eventually the body is redeemed.

Romans 8

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

God does not intend for us to exist as spirits.
It is a bodily resurrection that everyone waits for.

 

[timothyu]

at no point, in earthly ministry

We only know about His time in earthly ministry. Nothing is said about form at any other time after that although one would assume He would return in human form for the 1000 years. But the new Kingdom is only supposition.

 

[timothyu]

Both.
God created us to exist as corporeal beings, sin corrupted it, the new birth puts a spirit that is at war with the body, but eventually the body is redeemed.

Both while here, but there is nothing said about the Kingdom. This universe is no more.

 

[timothyu]

It is a bodily resurrection that everyone waits for.

The thing is Jesus' teachings were not about personal gain even though a whole religion was built about it, but rather ty were about the Father and His will being done not ours, hence He was going to take away power from the people and restore His own over us.

 

[Jamdoc]

We only know about His time in earthly ministry. Nothing is said about form at any other time after that although one would assume He would return in human form for the 1000 years. But the new Kingdom is only supposition.

John 20 (after the resurrection)

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

Revelation 1

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Zechariah 12 (when He returns)

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I mean it's not at all ambiguous what Jesus' gender is.
There's no gender fluidity, androgyny, gender non binary whatever.
Angels may have that, Satan has inspired that line of thinking throughout history and increasingly so now, because that's Satan's image, androgyny, bestial.

 

[Jamdoc]

Both while here, but there is nothing said about the Kingdom. This universe is no more.

The Kingdom is a new heaven and new earth, and the promise is bodily resurrection, the new earth is described in Isaiah 65 as having earthly activities such as building houses and planting fields.

This body bad, spirit good world view is a platonic corruption that pervaded the church.
Originally body and spirit were both good, then both were bad, then through new birth body bad spirit good, but eventually both are good again.
That's part of the restoration.

Man, I see a restoration of all things aside from one-two point changes in the plan.
You have Him restoring even less, and changing even more.
and I guess you're okay with God just changing plans on a whim.

 

[timothyu]

You have Him restoring even less, and changing even more.

Only as it applies to this

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

Only as it applies to this

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Right but bodily restoration is something that God intends to do. Otherwise Jesus would not have been bodily resurrected but just been a spirit.

 

[timothyu]

Otherwise Jesus would not have been bodily resurrected but just been a spirit.

Does it not make sense He would remain in the form of man while yet in this world? He did for 33 years.

 

[Jamdoc]

Does it not make sense He would remain in the form of man while yet in this world? He did for 33 years.

He appeared to John as a man too, and He'll appear as a man when He returns. He appeared as a man to Daniel in his visions as well.

Because that's what He is. We don't become spirits like God the Father or the Holy Spirit, God became man, it was necessary to restore us. The Word became flesh. He at no time after His incarnation stops being incarnated. In fact... it's part of His being and when He was resurrected and ascended, now being outside of time, it was as if there was never a point in time when He was NOT incarnated, because He is eternal, He is the first and the last. All appearances of God in the Old Testament are His incarnate, resurrected form. Nobody has seen God the Father, God the Father is spirit. What they have seen, is God the Son, the Word of God become flesh.

That is what I get through verses like John 1:1-18, and Hebrews 13:8, and appearances of God in the Pentateuch

It is a mind boggling time paradox, but that is a piece of the truth of it. There was a point in time where He was conceived, developed, was born, grew, lived, died, and was resurrected, then ascended, and after that.... at the beginning there was the resurrected Jesus, and at the end is the resurrected Jesus.. in a body.

So now because Jesus is incarnate, forever. We are resurrected to be like Him. That means bodies, forever. You said something earlier about Jesus taking away power from the people and restore His own. That is both true and false. He is our head, and all power and dominion belongs to Him. That is true. However, we are to rule and reign with Him. Part of what Jesus did is reclaim our rightful dominion that we squandered away by sinning, by listening to Satan, rather than God and obeying him rather than Him.

God's original plan for man was to have dominion on the Earth. That part of the plan has not changed. That part is part of the restoration. God's plan also was always not for man to go to heaven to dwell with Him, but for Him to come down and dwell with man on Earth. That is part of the restoration, that's fulfilling part of the Old Covenant, the promise made over and over to dwell with us, that's Revelation 21 and 22.

The only good thing that God created that is NOT restored, is marriage, and I cannot understand why.

 

[David's Harp]

He appeared to John as a man too, and He'll appear as a man when He returns. He appeared as a man to Daniel in his visions as well.

Because that's what He is. We don't become spirits like God the Father or the Holy Spirit, God became man, it was necessary to restore us. The Word became flesh. He at no time after His incarnation stops being incarnated. In fact... it's part of His being and when He was resurrected and ascended, now being outside of time, it was as if there was never a point in time when He was NOT incarnated, because He is eternal, He is the first and the last. All appearances of God in the Old Testament are His incarnate, resurrected form. Nobody has seen God the Father, God the Father is spirit. What they have seen, is God the Son, the Word of God become flesh.

That is what I get through verses like John 1:1-18, and Hebrews 13:8, and appearances of God in the Pentateuch

It is a mind boggling time paradox, but that is a piece of the truth of it. There was a point in time where He was conceived, developed, was born, grew, lived, died, and was resurrected, then ascended, and after that.... at the beginning there was the resurrected Jesus, and at the end is the resurrected Jesus.. in a body.

So now because Jesus is incarnate, forever. We are resurrected to be like Him. That means bodies, forever. You said something earlier about Jesus taking away power from the people and restore His own. That is both true and false. He is our head, and all power and dominion belongs to Him. That is true. However, we are to rule and reign with Him. Part of what Jesus did is reclaim our rightful dominion that we squandered away by sinning, by listening to Satan, rather than God and obeying him rather than Him.

God's original plan for man was to have dominion on the Earth. That part of the plan has not changed. That part is part of the restoration. God's plan also was always not for man to go to heaven to dwell with Him, but for Him to come down and dwell with man on Earth. That is part of the restoration, that's fulfilling part of the Old Covenant, the promise made over and over to dwell with us, that's Revelation 21 and 22.

The only good thing that God created that is NOT restored, is marriage, and I cannot understand why.

I've been thinking about marriage since you raised it here Jamdoc. I think we see that marriage is important, but it is a new type of marriage, with us being the Bride of Christ. (Ephesians 5:25-27, Revelation 19:7)
But regarding marriage as we now know it, is there anywhere in the Bible that states that it is good? If we look at certain verses it actually seems to be the opposite, with marriage being lumped into 'the days of Noah' (Matthew 24:38) and being seen as a lesser form of subservience (1 Corinthians 7) in favour of chastity.
Is it possible that the original plan, rather than being changed, was meant to show that this form of marriage was not what was to be intended, but instead to point to the greater 'spiritual' (sorry for bringing up that word again) marriage? Just like other events in times past were a foreshadowing pointing to the need for our Saviour?

 

[timothyu]

with us being the Bride of Christ

I don't understand why some people just can't except we are guests at the wedding feast, and backup guests at that. All it took was one pope to say otherwise and the tradition gets passed on as truth. Neither of those scriptures describes the bride but this does

REV 21:
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

He died to become sovereign of this, if anyone remembers He said His Kingdom was not of this world. Why is man intent on making everything about self and taking that away from Him.?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Some people just can't except we are guests at the wedding feast, and backup guests at that. All it took was one pope to say otherwise and the tradition gets passed on as truth. Neither of those scriptures describes the bride but this does

REV 21:
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

He died to become sovereign of this, Why is man intent on making everything about self and taking that away from Him.?

Those looking for a new city in Hebrews 11 the builder and maker that is God can easily be seen as those who are living stones being built up together as well. I don't see a contradiction there.

ETA other than those who are the friends of the bridegroom ie: the least in the Kingdom, are coming out from the law.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I've been thinking about marriage since you raised it here Jamdoc. I think we see that marriage is important, but it is a new type of marriage, with us being the Bride of Christ. (Ephesians 5:25-27, Revelation 19:7)
But regarding marriage as we now know it, is there anywhere in the Bible that states that it is good? If we look at certain verses it actually seems to be the opposite, with marriage being lumped into 'the days of Noah' (Matthew 24:38) and being seen as a lesser form of subservience (1 Corinthians 7) in favour of chastity.
Is it possible that the original plan, rather than being changed, was meant to show that this form of marriage was not what was to be intended, but instead to point to the greater 'spiritual' (sorry for bringing up that word again) marriage? Just like other events in times past were a foreshadowing pointing to the need for our Saviour?

25 Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it 26 to make it belong to God. Christ used the word to make the church clean by washing it with water. 27 He died so that he could give the church to himself like a bride in all her beauty.

I agree that the church is the bride of Christ in a greater 'spiritual' way. What the analogy of our spiritual priesthood is under our high priest is the analogy of spiritual marraige under the husbandman cleansing
with the Word, which is Christ.

jm2c

 

[Jamdoc]

I've been thinking about marriage since you raised it here Jamdoc. I think we see that marriage is important, but it is a new type of marriage, with us being the Bride of Christ. (Ephesians 5:25-27, Revelation 19:7)
But regarding marriage as we now know it, is there anywhere in the Bible that states that it is good? If we look at certain verses it actually seems to be the opposite, with marriage being lumped into 'the days of Noah' (Matthew 24:38) and being seen as a lesser form of subservience (1 Corinthians 7) in favour of chastity.
Is it possible that the original plan, rather than being changed, was meant to show that this form of marriage was not what was to be intended, but instead to point to the greater 'spiritual' (sorry for bringing up that word again) marriage? Just like other events in times past were a foreshadowing pointing to the need for our Saviour?

Proverbs 18

22 Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.

Not to mention the bulk of Proverbs 31, which equates having a virtuous wife as being a prize far more than rubies.

Not to mention Song of Solomon, an entire book that God Inspired that does not once mention God directly, and is entirely about romantic love between a man and a woman. That if that love is not a part of eternity but is only something meaningful for a brief moment in history compared to the trillions and trillions of years of eternity? Why? Why make it Inspired scripture? How is this apparently insignificant form of love that has no place in eternity (as Matthew 22:30 would indicate) part of eternal scripture?

as for children:

Psalm 127

3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

as for the "bride of Christ" that's corporate, it is not individual.

Jesus is not having homosexual "marriages" nor is He a Polygamist.

I wanted to vomit in my own mouth when Jonathan Caan depicted the relationship with Jesus in a sexual way, he's a man, Jesus is a man.
No Jesus is not gay.

So
restoration of all good things........ except those two connected things.


Oh, also on the use of the term spiritual.. the problem I have with it is that many use it as some sort of "catch all" to make something sound better or placating, often for things that they do not understand.

Like if I express a lack of intimacy that would result from everyone being single and celibate, with "intimacy" being limited to handshakes and side hugs (gestures that deliberately limit intimacy, keeping someone at arm's length and not bringing in for a full embrace), someone will inevitably say "oh well 'spiritual intimacy'" They don't even know what they're talking about, they just want it to sound nice, a way to have "intimacy" that doesn't involve physical intimacy.

But they do not even know the ocean in which they dip their toes in when they use that term improperly.

To be spiritually intimate with someone is not just "oh well, we're both Christians here haha Jesus yeah! Praise the Lord!" no.

Intimacy is closeness, to be physically intimate with someone is to know their physical body unlike anyone but themselves, and in some ways, better than themselves. That is why the term in the bible is to KNOW someone.

To be spiritually intimate with someone is to know their mind and spirit, every single thought, every single memory, every single impulse that they experience, as well, if not better, than they know themselves.
That means that you would be saying you want that person to know every sensation you feel, every sight you see, every thought you have (including ones you have about them), every memory you have, including every sin you have ever done. What if it's a person you had lustful thoughts of in your youth, do you want that person to know every time you thought about them in a lustful, objectifying sinful way?

what about from your point of view, do you want to know every single sin that every other person has ever committed, and then consider yourself in a good relationship with them? Do you want to experience the memories of a former pedophile? A former junkie? A former murderer?

If you want to know someone intimately on a spiritual level, it is beyond what even the person closest to you aside from Christ (who knows all things) knows about you and you know about them.


There is a reason why God promises to remove our sins as far as the east is from the west.
You don't want an eternity dwelling on the regrets of your past sins.
That's for hell.
not heaven and the new earth.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Romans 7:18

anyway, I'll leave you to it

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Pro-creation was given to mankind for the purpose of allowing mankind to understand the Father's position of Creator to creation. Only mankind can give worship to the Father and only mankind expects worship from others, for whatever reason. Stay with me here for a moment. Christ, as a male in that position afforded by society chose to learn obedience to the Father as the Son to account for the unbalanced nature within Himself in relation to mankind, wherein He could only be above and not also fellow heir. By becoming human also, and not ashamed to be called brother then He also earned the right for us to come to the creator as Abba Father.

What think ye?