Why does the world need to "end"?

[Jamdoc]

Pro-creation was given to mankind for the purpose of allowing mankind to understand the Father's position of Creator to creation. Only mankind can give worship to the Father and only mankind expects worship from others, for whatever reason. Stay with me here for a moment. Christ, as a male in that position afforded by society chose to learn obedience to the Father as the Son to account for the unbalanced nature within Himself in relation to mankind, wherein He could only be above and not also fellow heir. By becoming human also, and not ashamed to be called brother then He also earned the right for us to come to the creator as Abba Father.

What think ye?

For that particular purpose, procreation does not require females. There are hundreds of millions of angels all male.

the creation of female, the complementary differences, the nature of male to female attraction and the different way in which they can love each other, a form of love that is again, enshrined forever in the word of God, all has purpose. That purpose cannot simply be explained by a utilitarian explanation like "well there just needed to be more people" because of the vast numbers of angels without sexual procreation or gender differences, and Song of Solomon. It also cannot be explained just to give us a relationship to understand the deference of a Son to His Father. That doesn't at all require romantic love between a man and a woman, and yet it's forever in scripture.

There is something more to it, and if it truly is something that only exists for this brief moment in history, and unlike sin (another thing that will only exist in a brief moment in history) it does not specifically play into the plan for redemption (something has to fall for it to be redeemed).. so wouldn't it be utterly pointless? Animals procreate, but only occasionally are they monogamous and could be said to "love" each other.

God created something that was beyond utilitarianism for procreation, beyond simple physical pleasure, and in roughly half of the people on the planet, made them distinctly different, not just in anatomy, but also in character.
But if these differences only exist in a brief moment in time compared to eternity, and if the relationship only exists for a brief moment in time compared to eternity, and the love exists only in a brief moment in time compared to eternity... and it's not directly connected to salvation.... why's it in the bible forever?

 

[timothyu]

There are hundreds of millions of angels all male.

Is not male a state of mind rather than a physical trait?

+ _ Gender aside, male is a positive state of mind towards the Kingdom/will of
God. Female represents the negative view which leads to the will of man and the world we have made in our own image.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Is not male a state of mind rather than a physical trait?

+ _ Gender aside, male is a positive state of mind towards the Kingdom/will of
God. Female represents the negative view which leads to the will of man and the world we have made in our own image.

If we were to be honest then the female (bride) is humanity in itself and there is no positive (all have sinned) while the male represents the new man which is Christ as head (mind of Christ)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

For that particular purpose, procreation does not require females. There are hundreds of millions of angels all male.

the creation of female, the complementary differences, the nature of male to female attraction and the different way in which they can love each other, a form of love that is again, enshrined forever in the word of God, all has purpose. That purpose cannot simply be explained by a utilitarian explanation like "well there just needed to be more people" because of the vast numbers of angels without sexual procreation or gender differences, and Song of Solomon. It also cannot be explained just to give us a relationship to understand the deference of a Son to His Father. That doesn't at all require romantic love between a man and a woman, and yet it's forever in scripture.

There is something more to it, and if it truly is something that only exists for this brief moment in history, and unlike sin (another thing that will only exist in a brief moment in history) it does not specifically play into the plan for redemption (something has to fall for it to be redeemed).. so wouldn't it be utterly pointless? Animals procreate, but only occasionally are they monogamous and could be said to "love" each other.

God created something that was beyond utilitarianism for procreation, beyond simple physical pleasure, and in roughly half of the people on the planet, made them distinctly different, not just in anatomy, but also in character.

For the most part I agreed with this but the mystery exists that what He has planned we can't even imagine.

But if these differences only exist in a brief moment in time compared to eternity, and if the relationship only exists for a brief moment in time compared to eternity, and the love exists only in a brief moment in time compared to eternity... and it's not directly connected to salvation.... why's it in the bible forever?

Not sure what you mean by in the bible forever.

 

[Jamdoc]

Is not male a state of mind rather than a physical trait?

+ _ Gender aside, male is a positive state of mind towards the Kingdom/will of
God. Female represents the negative view which leads to the will of man and the world we have made in our own image.

Genesis 6

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I mean, you could maybe say that?
But all the Angels appear to be .. male.. and capable of sex, and while it's apocryphal, 1 Enoch goes into this more that Angels were not given wives of their own, that is why they chose human wives.
It also gives a similar rationale as to why Angels were not given wives as what Jesus gives in Matthew 22:30 and it's corresponding verses in Mark and Luke.
That because Angels don't die, they don't procreate and therefore, don't get wives.

But marriage was created before men could die. so I'm not really sure of that rationale, again, apocryphal.

Interestingly enough though, it also poses a significant theological challenge.
the Angels bore witness to God in all His glory, and still chose wives.
and Adam chose to die with his wife, rather than obey God, Adam was not deceived by the serpent as Eve was. Adam listened to his wife over obeying God.

It is the closest thing I can understand to God deciding to do away with marriage.
However Song of Solomon was written after the fall, so was Proverbs 18, and so was Psalm 127.

again it comes back to why does God change His mind on this... and furthermore, why did God change His mind thousands of years after the event that could possibly explain His change of mind on the subject? He only seemingly changed His mind on this during the ministry of Jesus.

 

[Jamdoc]

For the most part I agreed with this but the mystery exists that what He has planned we can't even imagine.
Not sure what you mean by in the bible forever.

Song of Solomon will be part of the bible forever. That's what I mean.

It's an entire book, that doesn't mention God a single time, and is entirely based on romantic love between a man and his wife, and it is considered Inspired scripture for all eternity.

I'm not arguing for it being removed from scripture btw.
I am wondering what its purpose is in light of eternity when the type of love it is about is not anything to do with salvation, and will not exist in the permanently single permanently celibate eternity where we are to exhibit a different type of love only.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Song of Solomon will be part of the bible forever. That's what I mean.

It's an entire book, that doesn't mention God a single time, and is entirely based on romantic love between a man and his wife, and it is considered Inspired scripture for all eternity.

I'm not arguing for it being removed from scripture btw.
I am wondering what its purpose is in light of eternity when the type of love it is about is not anything to do with salvation, and will not exist in the permanently single permanently celibate eternity where we are to exhibit a different type of love only.

While I'm sure it was written about physical love as much as everything happened physically in history to produce a spiritual application (truth and spirit) again we have Christ and the church.
It's not, imo, about salvation but rather about after justification and what sanctification does to transform the new creation. Pro-creation becomes new-creation.
It's the process of the old to the new. Metamorphosis.

There have been instances recorded where just the Holy Spirit is recorded as bringing extasy that levitated Teresa of Avilon, I think was the nuns name that reported that, so who knows what we can experience in spiritual bodies if that is possible in the human body.

The below verses talk about verbal intercouse so I wonder what is really meant by those angels of Genesis 6 when they are also accused of sinful teachings.

Hebrews 13:15 Through him then let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of lips which make confession to his name.
Proverbs 18:20 Of the fruit of a man's mouth shall his belly be satisfied: and the offspring of his lips shall fill him.

 

[timothyu]

I am wondering what its purpose is in light of eternity when the type of love it is about is not anything to do with salvation,

Could be God is more interested in us doing His will now, rather than planning our future

 

[Jamdoc]

Could be God is more interested in us doing His will now, rather than planning our future

Now is a blip on the radar though, eternity is what actually matters, and we are to set our minds on things above, meditate on the scriptures, and pray unceasingly.

Being that my "now" is as a cripple with no job, no real "life" and only time to study and meditate on scripture.. and eternal things... that's what I do.

 

[timothyu]

Now is a blip on the radar though, eternity is what actually matters, and we are to set our minds on things above, meditate on the scriptures, and pray unceasingly.

I thought it was constantly seek God and do His will. Why do we always want to put ourselves first?

 

[timothyu]

Being that my "now" is as a cripple with no job, no real "life" and only time to study and meditate on scripture.. and eternal things... that's what I do.

I can relate, but I chose to promote His counter-culture.

 

[David's Harp]

@Jamdoc my heart goes out to you. It's not just because of your physical condition, but also that I see you are struggling with something in God's Word. I've been troubled in my spirit at some of the things you've been writing. I've had various drafts lined up in response to certain posts, but I realise that you seem to have figured it all out. I'm not sure I'd be able to effectively debate with you.
But I'll say a couple of things. Regarding Song of Solomon; while there is no doubt some physicality referenced here, I see it as addressing a deeper love that transcends the physical. The reason, imo, that it is eternal is because it highlights the love of Christ.
Going back to the concept of "things not restored" in the new heaven. What about sunlight? Don't you see that as being a good thing? And yet, no need for it in the new heaven. Likewise with marriage and children; something much greater is yet to come.
God Bless you brother!

 

[Jamdoc]

@Jamdoc my heart goes out to you. It's not just because of your physical condition, but also that I see you are struggling with something in God's Word. I've been troubled in my spirit at some of the things you've been writing. I've had various drafts lined up in response to certain posts, but I realise that you seem to have figured it all out. I'm not sure I'd be able to effectively debate with you.
But I'll say a couple of things. Regarding Song of Solomon; while there is no doubt some physicality referenced here, I see it as addressing a deeper love that transcends the physical. The reason, imo, that it is eternal is because it highlights the love of Christ.
Going back to the concept of "things not restored" in the new heaven. What about sunlight? Don't you see that as being a good thing? And yet, no need for it in the new heaven. Likewise with marriage and children; something much greater is yet to come.
God Bless you brother!

I struggle with the idea of God changing His mind and God changing His plans.
Because if God changes His mind.. what is secure?

as a person who's more of a night owl, and always has been, and always found the sun glaring, hot, and miserable to deal with, I'm actually more concerned about the loss of night. I like watching things in the night sky, I like more gentle lights, not glaring blinding hot lights, but I do think that perhaps the "night" and the "sea" that don't exist in the New Earth are more or less metaphors, not literally there's never again night sky.
You think God would just up and remove something beautiful like stars and planets and auroras? I'd like to think He'd make them better and more spectacular.

Though to be fair, God did not specifically say night was good.
He did however, declare the seas and everything in them to be good.
So I sure hope that the sea (and many of my favorite creatures are marine/aquatic creatures, dolphins, whales, otters, and maybe I shouldn't care so much about these things but I also have a real soft spot for sea turtles) is not another thing God changes His mind on.. more things that sin forever destroyed and will not be restored.

I have to have some hope.. cause otherwise, I just feel like I don't even belong in that world, or any world. I have enough trouble feeling like I fit in anywhere as it is.

Here I am, a night owl who loves the ocean, and here the bible comes along and says "no more sea" and "no night"
like I'm just incompatible

and don't try to comfort me with "God will change you" cause that just sounds like brainwash.

If the best God can do is brainwash me, then just... uncreate me.

 

[David's Harp]

I have enough trouble feeling like I fit in anywhere as it is.

Well I can sure relate to that feeling. I still feel like that stranger and pilgrim on this earth. That's another reason why I trust God's Word; it gives me the reason for why I feel unrested here, and the hope of going back to my real home.

Please forgive me Jamdoc, but I can't help but feel you are being a little carnally minded by comparing what we have on this earth, to heaven.

With regard to God changing His mind; I don't see it. Doesn't mean that's not the case, but I don't see that.
But even if He did, I don't think I could love Him any less. Could the sacrifice of Jesus Christ be made any less? God forbid.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well I can sure relate to that feeling. I still feel like that stranger and pilgrim on this earth. That's another reason why I trust God's Word; it gives me the reason for why I feel unrested here, and the hope of going back to my real home.

I would feel that way but when scripture says things that WON'T be in heaven and includes things that I like (and not sinful things), it makes me feel like, I don't belong there either, and I never really feel like I belong in church, or belong in the world either.

So when people say something like "God will change what you like" it's like.. "so not even God accepts me, God rejects me and reprograms me into a replacement He likes better" and that is .. possibly the most discouraging thought ever. That not even your own creator actually accepts you but has to replace you with someone else masquerading in your place.

Please forgive me Jamdoc, but I can't help but feel you are being a little carnally minded by comparing what we have on this earth, to heaven.

Because there is carnality, the physical resurrection, the physical return of Jesus, and a new earth, which Jesus described in terms of banquets, weddings, etc. Jesus USED carnal language. Isaiah 65 depicts very earthly scenes, planting crops, building houses.
This idea that redemption involves some mystical floaty spirity non corporeal existence is not from God, it's from Greece.

It is also because , God created what He wanted in the beginning. He said it was very good. If He'd wanted it to be something else, He'd have created something else. We mucked it up.
But the promise is a New Earth.
Not floaty mystical ethreal spirit realm.
But New Earth
physical resurrection
So God still wants what He created in the beginning, He also still wants us to have dominion over it, as we were given dominion over this Earth before we squandered it.

it's just seemingly different details, that make me think "changed His mind" and that turns the entire world on its head.

I change my mind when something unexpected happens, or I learn new information.
Nothing unexpected happens to God, nor does God learn new information. So how does He even change His mind to begin with?

With regard to God changing His mind; I don't see it. Doesn't mean that's not the case, but I don't see that.

Let's take oceans for existence, if Revelation 21:1 is to be taken literally and there are no more oceans.
God initially created oceans, populated them, and said it was good. Then God in the new earth says "oceans? nah, I don't like those anymore, no oceans or sea creatures this time"
wouldn't that be changing His mind?

But even if He did, I don't think I could love Him any less. Could the sacrifice of Jesus Christ be made any less? God forbid.

Funny you should ask that because there is something that can cheapen Jesus' sacrifice... and that is.. His motivation for doing it.

If Jesus did it FOR Us, because He loves us, and is considerate of us, cares about us regardless of our shortcomings, then that is truly divine, it's selfless.

But if Jesus did it just so that we'd always be thankful to Him and praise Him over and over incessantly falling at His feat and glorifying Him... then it's not about us, it's about Him.

Then it's not a selfless act it is a selfish act.

Think about it. if I give you a gift, just because I'm feeling generous Okay sure, I should expect gratitude, but more the reason I gave it is not for that gratitude, but because I want to see you happy with the gift that I gave. I don't expect you to ceaselessly thank me for it, once is enough, I more delight in seeing you enjoying the gift. In fact I'd feel kind of weirded out if you weren't enjoying the gift and were just so busy thanking me over and over.

Now if I gave you a gift and just stood expectantly waiting for your gratitude and then after you thanked me I say "what that's it? Keep thanking me, let me bask in your praise and gratitude!"
Wouldn't that sour the gift, and make it less enjoyable? Because the reason I gave it to you was "me me me me me"?

Now the bible is clear, that Jesus' motivation was love for us, but the way some pastors swing it? They actually give Jesus a selfish motivation for it, and it can sour it for me.

It can instead of making me feel like I'm loved, make me feel like I'm just an object, a means of cosmic ego stroking.

Surely He's better than that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Now is a blip on the radar though, eternity is what actually matters, and we are to set our minds on things above, meditate on the scriptures, and pray unceasingly.

Being that my "now" is as a cripple with no job, no real "life" and only time to study and meditate on scripture.. and eternal things... that's what I do.

It sounds like what you do is what He would have you do. Most are not afforded the time. Perhaps a shift to trust may help.

PS, I say that with what I feel as experiencing the same thing but instead of being a cripple I'm just retired, no real life, and only time for study etc .... while blaming myself for not having a real life etc. when what I have is a luxery for most. I have to trust that what He provides is what I need.

 

[timothyu]

There is no sun or night sky among other things in dreams. Perhaps that is an indication of things to come where mind does not just perceive, but is.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There is no sun or night sky among other things in dreams. Perhaps that is an indication of things to come where mind does not just perceive, but is.

or nightmares/pergatory? asking because I have thought that myself at times.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But here are some verses about the night

• 9 Bible Verses about 'Night' - DailyVerses.net

But more importantly we should realize Who is the light ..
John 12:36
While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

 

[Jamdoc]

But here are some verses about the night

• 9 Bible Verses about 'Night' - DailyVerses.net

But more importantly we should realize Who is the light ..
John 12:36
While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.

Like, sometimes night is a symbol for things like persecution, or danger, or ignorance, or is connected with sins like drunkenness.

But I don't believe God views just literal night time to be an evil thing that must be corrected. He created it before the fall, and created beauty in it.