Why does the world need to "end"?

[David's Harp]

I would feel that way but when scripture says things that WON'T be in heaven and includes things that I like (and not sinful things), it makes me feel like, I don't belong there either, and I never really feel like I belong in church, or belong in the world either.

How do you feel about 1 John 2:15-17?

Because there is carnality, the physical resurrection, the physical return of Jesus, and a new earth, which Jesus described in terms of banquets, weddings, etc. Jesus USED carnal language. Isaiah 65 depicts very earthly scenes, planting crops, building houses.
This idea that redemption involves some mystical floaty spirity non corporeal existence is not from God, it's from Greece.

Yes, of course; I absolutely agree that it is not/will not be a purely spiritual existence, but it's more to do with the carnal mind, or the lack thereof in the Kingdom.

It is also because , God created what He wanted in the beginning. He said it was very good. If He'd wanted it to be something else, He'd have created something else. We mucked it up.

For me, when I look at the overall story, I don't see a problem; and I don't think the Garden of Eden was the ultimate or final plan. I agree we mucked it up, but perhaps we had to, in order to experience evil and thereby be able to appreciate the true goodness of God's Sacrifice. Maybe this whole saga is for God to determine those who truly love Him; because He's given them that choice, in this world. If we were all still in the Garden would it really be the same choice? How big was the Garden anyway? How many would the tree of life have fed? How would satan have been able to tempt? What would his role have been?
I think it risks going into a realm of speculation that isn't helpful. I think it's better to realise and admit in humility that there are some answers we will just never know, and just hold our hand up in faith saying "God, I trust in you".

it's just seemingly different details, that make me think "changed His mind" and that turns the entire world on its head.

Let's take oceans for existence, if Revelation 21:1 is to be taken literally and there are no more oceans.
God initially created oceans, populated them, and said it was good. Then God in the new earth says "oceans? nah, I don't like those anymore, no oceans or sea creatures this time"
wouldn't that be changing His mind?

It's as you say, do you take these verses literally, or metaphorically? Personally, I'm a firm believer in 1 Corinthians 2:9 and how no eye has seen or heart has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him. I believe this applies to the 'now' as well as the 'future'.

If Jesus did it FOR Us, because He loves us, and is considerate of us, cares about us regardless of our shortcomings, then that is truly divine, it's selfless.

Well I'd have thought as a bible-believing Christian who's indwelt with the Holy Spirit this would be a given, and well understood. Not the alternative you suggested, where He does it for some sort of selfish gain.

 

[timothyu]

If the old world and heavens pass away, is it our will or His that we keep things the same? Should God cater to our will, or is it a matter of adaptation on our part?

 

[Jamdoc]

How do you feel about 1 John 2:15-17?

In contexts like this it's not meaning don't love the planet/creation, those are things that God created and we should love what God created.

Isaiah 65

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Like.. God isn't just saying, you'll rejoice in Him like this picture of what might as well just be a blank white space filled with billions of people falling on their face and singing hymns and psalms at God in the center of the room. When you say, rejoice in God and that's it.. that's the image it paints. a very static, boring, eternal ego stroking.

I get so depressed at that that I just don't even want to exist anymore, if that's "the best" thing I have to look forward to.

It is apparent that God wants you to enjoy what He created. he set Adam and Eve in a Garden where their needs were provided for, and He wasn't even demanding that they fall on their faces or sing to Him.. He provided them a place, and said "tend to my Garden, take care of the thing I created, have Dominion over it, fill the Earth, live life"

So why is New Earth..... just a worship service in the minds of many Christians, less than the original creation?

No, what John means in that passage by world, is the civilization and society that men created in their fallen state.
What God created, a physical universe, and planet, and life to fill it, that's all good, why shouldn't we love the good things that God created?

But should we love the evil we invented? no.

Yes, of course; I absolutely agree that it is not/will not be a purely spiritual existence, but it's more to do with the carnal mind, or the lack thereof in the Kingdom.

For me, when I look at the overall story, I don't see a problem; and I don't think the Garden of Eden was the ultimate or final plan. I agree we mucked it up, but perhaps we had to, in order to experience evil and thereby be able to appreciate the true goodness of God's Sacrifice. Maybe this whole saga is for God to determine those who truly love Him; because He's given them that choice, in this world. If we were all still in the Garden would it really be the same choice? How big was the Garden anyway? How many would the tree of life have fed? How would satan have been able to tempt? What would his role have been?

To me, when I read that God had determined that His initial creation was very good, that it was something pleasing, that this was what He wanted.

Like.. it would diminish God for me, if God created Earth, and Eden, and just thought "okay, now this is a world that I have set a trap for man to mess up, so that I can curse everything I created, then redeem it, and then turn it into an everlasting worship service for mmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

No.. what kind of God would that be? That's religion is what that is.

I think it risks going into a realm of speculation that isn't helpful. I think it's better to realise and admit in humility that there are some answers we will just never know, and just hold our hand up in faith saying "God, I trust in you".

If I did that, I'd literally just rot. All I have is time, time to think time to study, I'm isolated, I don't have my own transportation to even go to church, so my life is not filled with people.. so what do I have? Time spent alone.

It's being stir crazy is what it is.

It's as you say, do you take these verses literally, or metaphorically? Personally, I'm a firm believer in 1 Corinthians 2:9 and how no eye has seen or heart has imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him. I believe this applies to the 'now' as well as the 'future'.

Most times, I take the bible at face value, literally, unless I am given an explanation in the text itself that something is a symbol.
I HOPE that it's just a metaphor but I also kind of try to brace myself for literal.

Well I'd have thought as a bible-believing Christian who's indwelt with the Holy Spirit this would be a given, and well understood. Not the alternative you suggested, where He does it for some sort of selfish gain.

That's why I said it's a good thing the bible makes the motivation clear.

However pastors sure do a bang up job at twisting it into what would be a selfish motivation.

I was posing the other motivation, because Pastors are so great at making Jesus seem selfish that it's all about Him and His glory..
because a lot of people, apparently love RELIGION very very much.

 

[David's Harp]

In contexts like this it's not meaning don't love the planet/creation, those are things that God created and we should love what God created.

Isaiah 65


Like.. God isn't just saying, you'll rejoice in Him like this picture of what might as well just be a blank white space filled with billions of people falling on their face and singing hymns and psalms at God in the center of the room. When you say, rejoice in God and that's it.. that's the image it paints. a very static, boring, eternal ego stroking.

I get so depressed at that that I just don't even want to exist anymore, if that's "the best" thing I have to look forward to.

It is apparent that God wants you to enjoy what He created. he set Adam and Eve in a Garden where their needs were provided for, and He wasn't even demanding that they fall on their faces or sing to Him.. He provided them a place, and said "tend to my Garden, take care of the thing I created, have Dominion over it, fill the Earth, live life"

So why is New Earth..... just a worship service in the minds of many Christians, less than the original creation?

No, what John means in that passage by world, is the civilization and society that men created in their fallen state.
What God created, a physical universe, and planet, and life to fill it, that's all good, why shouldn't we love the good things that God created?

But should we love the evil we invented? no.



To me, when I read that God had determined that His initial creation was very good, that it was something pleasing, that this was what He wanted.

Like.. it would diminish God for me, if God created Earth, and Eden, and just thought "okay, now this is a world that I have set a trap for man to mess up, so that I can curse everything I created, then redeem it, and then turn it into an everlasting worship service for mmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee"

No.. what kind of God would that be? That's religion is what that is.



If I did that, I'd literally just rot. All I have is time, time to think time to study, I'm isolated, I don't have my own transportation to even go to church, so my life is not filled with people.. so what do I have? Time spent alone.

It's being stir crazy is what it is.


Most times, I take the bible at face value, literally, unless I am given an explanation in the text itself that something is a symbol.
I HOPE that it's just a metaphor but I also kind of try to brace myself for literal.


That's why I said it's a good thing the bible makes the motivation clear.

However pastors sure do a bang up job at twisting it into what would be a selfish motivation.

I was posing the other motivation, because Pastors are so great at making Jesus seem selfish that it's all about Him and His glory..
because a lot of people, apparently love RELIGION very very much.

Hey, thanks for taking the time to discuss these things with me, even though my viewpoints and knowledge are probably not challenging enough for you.
I renounced the need to know all the answers a while back. I even cried out to God saying so, as I could see that my constant looking for answers was driving a wedge between me and the Spirit. Maybe there's a fine line between the Spirit guiding you unto all Truth, and wanting to know the answers on your own terms.
I suppose the question we should each continually be asking ourselves is: are we walking with the Spirit, growing in our faith and developing our fruit?

I appreciate it must be extremely difficult for you being isolated. Will you let me pray for you?
Heavenly Father, You know brother Jamdoc's desire to know You and experience Your presence. You also know of his health difficulties and his isolation in this. I pray that somehow You will turn this situation around for him. Whatever is in Your Will, let that happen God. If an improvement in health - let it be so. If it is someone who can take him to church - let it be so. If it is a new view and fresh inspiration from You - let it be so.
Let him also be a blessing to this forum, Father, as he uses his unique viewpoint and life experience, along with his skills in research, for the edification of others. In Jesus name. Amen.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hey, thanks for taking the time to discuss these things with me, even though my viewpoints and knowledge are probably not challenging enough for you.

Oh please don't feel that way!
I am so sorry if I come across in a way that is at all belittling if anything I'm the one who feels little and broken!

I renounced the need to know all the answers a while back. I even cried out to God saying so, as I could see that my constant looking for answers was driving a wedge between me and the Spirit. Maybe there's a fine line between the Spirit guiding you unto all Truth, and wanting to know the answers on your own terms.
I suppose the question we should each continually be asking ourselves is: are we walking with the Spirit, growing in our faith and developing our fruit?

Actually you hit a nerve here, not like, your fault or in a bad way at all, so don't think that.. but for awhile I've had a bit of a frustration. Where I pray for guidance, like where should I read in scripture today, what should I study, I pray for wisdom, insight, I pray for the Spirit to interpret for me..... and.... there's nothing.. no guiding my paths.. if I just open up scripture and start reading like.. an obligation "no bible no breakfast" or some hard rule like that, or like 'well let's just pick up from where I left off'... I get nothing... nothing new is revealed, nothing stands out, no new meaning, no answer to questions, it's like He turns His back on me and lets me fumble around in the dark by myself.

But when someone else has a struggle, or has a question.
It's like, then I feel His presence, and He starts guiding me go here, go here go here, verses and passages popping into my head, all chained together and connecting in ways I didn't think of before, there's insight, old taught interpretations get MELTED AWAY, like scales falling from the eyes, new convictions, new interpretations that reconcile passages I've felt challenged by for years pop up, sometimes He asks rhetorical questions, because He knows that's what gets me thinking and learning.
.... but only when someone else asks a question do I feel any guidance.
for my own questions.... it's like screaming into the vacuum of space. it goes out into the vacuum... no response.. not even an echo.

and like... you know how sometimes people just quote one verse here and there, I've started quoting more context, because I understand the context more, rather than just the one verse.

But my studies only feel guided when it's directed to help someone else. Like I don't need any help and can just stew in the dark. Are my questions not good enough?

I appreciate it must be extremely difficult for you being isolated. Will you let me pray for you?
Heavenly Father, You know brother Jamdoc's desire to know You and experience Your presence. You also know of his health difficulties and his isolation in this. I pray that somehow You will turn this situation around for him. Whatever is in Your Will, let that happen God. If an improvement in health - let it be so. If it is someone who can take him to church - let it be so. If it is a new view and fresh inspiration from You - let it be so.
Let him also be a blessing to this forum, Father, as he uses his unique viewpoint and life experience, along with his skills in research, for the edification of others. In Jesus name. Amen.

Thank you. I've stopped praying for myself a lot of the time.. sometimes my prayers are very short, just.. praying for Jesus to come back.

It may seem strange because I'm so negative, but.. I realize that even if I don't expect to be happy, I still pray for Him to come back because I know it is the only hope anyone has.

 

[David's Harp]

Oh please don't feel that way!
I am so sorry if I come across in a way that is at all belittling if anything I'm the one who feels little and broken!

No! You haven't come across in that way at all. But I know you have greater knowledge than I do; it's my own limitations I'm aware of.
In some ways you may be broken; as am I. In others you have strength. I pray the Spirit will help you see these areas. You know, we should be rejoicing in our brokenness, or suffering, just as Paul did. Easier said than done, eh?

Actually you hit a nerve here, not like, your fault or in a bad way at all, so don't think that.. but for awhile I've had a bit of a frustration. Where I pray for guidance, like where should I read in scripture today, what should I study, I pray for wisdom, insight, I pray for the Spirit to interpret for me..... and.... there's nothing.. no guiding my paths.. if I just open up scripture and start reading like.. an obligation "no bible no breakfast" or some hard rule like that, or like 'well let's just pick up from where I left off'... I get nothing... nothing new is revealed, nothing stands out, no new meaning, no answer to questions, it's like He turns His back on me and lets me fumble around in the dark by myself.

But when someone else has a struggle, or has a question.
It's like, then I feel His presence, and He starts guiding me go here, go here go here, verses and passages popping into my head, all chained together and connecting in ways I didn't think of before, there's insight, old taught interpretations get MELTED AWAY, like scales falling from the eyes, new convictions, new interpretations that reconcile passages I've felt challenged by for years pop up, sometimes He asks rhetorical questions, because He knows that's what gets me thinking and learning.
.... but only when someone else asks a question do I feel any guidance.
for my own questions.... it's like screaming into the vacuum of space. it goes out into the vacuum... no response.. not even an echo.

and like... you know how sometimes people just quote one verse here and there, I've started quoting more context, because I understand the context more, rather than just the one verse.

But my studies only feel guided when it's directed to help someone else. Like I don't need any help and can just stew in the dark. Are my questions not good enough?

Reading this has brought a lump to my throat. You started with the statement about hitting a nerve. But maybe that is what we need, to help build each other up. I'd prefer to have someone try and point out if they thought I was in error, rather than keep quiet. Sometimes I worry that I'm not being disciplined by the Lord, but maybe that's because I'm expecting that to come in a form of my choosing. I am aware I have challenges in everyday life, but I'm not sure if it's the same. I'm not sure if this discipline applies to your perceived lack of guidance, or whether something else is stopping that. I did a little search on spiritual dryness, and I was drawn to Psalms 13.
Your point about context is important. It's something I've been recognising and trying to address also. Yet, I feel there are some verses that do stand alone as being eternal Truth and have no need of context - case in point John 14:6.
I don't know how to reconcile some of the the seeming contradictions that are found in the Bible, but I do believe that it is because of my lack of understanding. But I don't go chasing that; I let the Spirit lead. If I'm supposed to know I guess I'll get to know.
I think we're all different, and I'm not trying to give you advice, other than to make sure you are being led by the Spirit.
Perhaps you could offer up some of the questions you are struggling with to the forum, to get another perspective on whether they are good questions or not. Maybe you are asking the wrong questions, idk.

Thank you. I've stopped praying for myself a lot of the time.. sometimes my prayers are very short, just.. praying for Jesus to come back.

It may seem strange because I'm so negative, but.. I realize that even if I don't expect to be happy, I still pray for Him to come back because I know it is the only hope anyone has.

Oh, you're gonna be happy brother! I'm certain the Lord has a place for you. Don't stop praying and praising Him. Why can't you boldly approach His throne of grace? What holds you back brother? Examine your conscience to see if there is anything needing attention. This negativity is no part of you, and is something that is due to your situation. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Maybe it's time to give the mirror a clean...whatever that means to you. I'll continue to pray into your situation.

Finally, apologies to the OP, as I realise our discussion may have derailed the main topic.
Jamdoc, you can PM me if you want to talk any further on a more personal level, rather than hogging this thread. If not, then I'll leave the discussion as it stands here, and I'll see you in the other threads anyway. God Bless.

 

[Jamdoc]

No! You haven't come across in that way at all. But I know you have greater knowledge than I do; it's my own limitations I'm aware of.
In some ways you may be broken; as am I. In others you have strength. I pray the Spirit will help you see these areas. You know, we should be rejoicing in our brokenness, or suffering, just as Paul did. Easier said than done, eh?

Definitely easier said than done, and compounded by FOMO, that there are things people can do in this life that cannot be done after the resurrection compounds it.

Reading this has brought a lump to my throat. You started with the statement about hitting a nerve. But maybe that is what we need, to help build each other up. I'd prefer to have someone try and point out if they thought I was in error, rather than keep quiet. Sometimes I worry that I'm not being disciplined by the Lord, but maybe that's because I'm expecting that to come in a form of my choosing. I am aware I have challenges in everyday life, but I'm not sure if it's the same. I'm not sure if this discipline applies to your perceived lack of guidance, or whether something else is stopping that. I did a little search on spiritual dryness, and I was drawn to Psalms 13.
Your point about context is important. It's something I've been recognising and trying to address also. Yet, I feel there are some verses that do stand alone as being eternal Truth and have no need of context - case in point John 14:6.
I don't know how to reconcile some of the the seeming contradictions that are found in the Bible, but I do believe that it is because of my lack of understanding. But I don't go chasing that; I let the Spirit lead. If I'm supposed to know I guess I'll get to know.
I think we're all different, and I'm not trying to give you advice, other than to make sure you are being led by the Spirit.
Perhaps you could offer up some of the questions you are struggling with to the forum, to get another perspective on whether they are good questions or not. Maybe you are asking the wrong questions, idk.

I have done that before but often don't find answers from people satisfying. Some struggles I have, are just simply not addressed in the bible that I can see, and when I ask, because they're not addressed in the bible from what others can see either, all that can be offered is advice, but not anything specifically rooted in scripture.

Oh, you're gonna be happy brother! I'm certain the Lord has a place for you. Don't stop praying and praising Him. Why can't you boldly approach His throne of grace? What holds you back brother? Examine your conscience to see if there is anything needing attention. This negativity is no part of you, and is something that is due to your situation. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Maybe it's time to give the mirror a clean...whatever that means to you. I'll continue to pray into your situation.

I don't know, a lot of times.... I get the feel like, my happiness is not what's important, it's serving that's important, again that kind of "it's not about you it's about Jesus so stop being selfish and wanting something frivolous like being happy" I get that kind of "advice" from people or "God is going to change you to be happy" like a brainwash, which is again.. the ultimate form of rejection to me, to have your mind erased and replaced with some other personality that's "more convenient" to be rejected by everyone... even your own creator.. that's pain. That's endless pain, it is hell itself even if you're standing in the middle of heaven face to face with Jesus that He'd reject you and replace you... you know?
It's just things I've been taught, by well meaning brothers and sisters.

Finally, apologies to the OP, as I realise our discussion may have derailed the main topic.
Jamdoc, you can PM me if you want to talk any further on a more personal level, rather than hogging this thread. If not, then I'll leave the discussion as it stands here, and I'll see you in the other threads anyway. God Bless.

I've had discussions with the OP and he has some of the same struggles I do in regards to eternity, he has a concern over the end of marriage as well. So while maybe we've veered from that my initial bringing up of that aspect I feel was topical because it's one of the reasons he doesn't want this world to end.

 

[renniks]

Talking a lot on here about the end of days because of all the stuff that is going on in the world, and it is scary to me because I just started my 30s and if the world is going to end, in the meantime here life will be very dark and miserable anyway. My question is why couldn't God just zap all the "problem" people away but otherwise allow this world to live on as usual and let the more benevolent people go into leadership and institutional positions again. Why does God sound like he wants to throw the baby out with the bathwater? I know what the Bible may say, but why do I even need to be part of his plan, whatever it is?

It's not going to end. Where does the bible say that the world's going to end?
It talks about the world being burned clean, but how much of that is metaphorical language?
Did you ever notice that it said that the world ended in Noah's time?
But of course it didn't end, it was just remade by the flood.

• Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost
  As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be.
  World without end. Amen

And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

If you think the world will end what do you do with these verses?

NKJV – Rev. 10:6 – “that there should be delay no longer.”

NASB – Rev. 10:6 – “that there will be delay no longer.”

ESV – Rev. 10:6 – “That there would be no more delay.”

NIV2011 – Rev. 10:6 – “There will be no more delay.”

The point here is that if you are going to Revelation 10:6 as your go-to scripture to support the idea that time will end that interpretation just does not stand up to scrutiny.

Daniel, Isaiah, and Joel were told their prophecies were for the “time of the end,” John was told, “there should be delay no longer.” In other words, the time of fulfillment had arrived when John wrote the book of Revelation. John, along with other first century Christians, were living in “the time of the end.”

Jesus told his disciples that the end of the age was to occur with the coming judgment in the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

In Isaiah 51:5-6 we see the Lord predicting the destruction of “heaven and earth.” God promised to destroy the old world and give them a new heaven and earth. These worlds are not physical worlds but covenant worlds. This is what Jesus was referring to in Matthew chapter 24 when He predicted the destruction of the Temple within the generation of his disciples. In Matthew 24:35 Jesus said that “heaven and earth shall pass away.”

I just thought we needed a preterist perspective on the subject... I actually have no opinion on this. Lol.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But there will never again be a new birth, isn't a new child being born a good thing? Wouldn't it even be a better thing if that child was born into a non fallen world? The pain of childbirth is part of the fall, but childbirth itself WAS intended to be part of the world before the fall. God didn't wait until after the fall to command "be fruitful and multiply".

But that's being taken away.
and not everyone gets to have children in this life, so.. there's a bit of a FOMO thing.

But some things yes, some good things, God is taking away.

It's also been claimed that we lose our sexuality in the resurrection. But I'm not convinced that this is true, nor am I convinced there won't be new children in the Age to Come.

What point would there be for a penis, or a vagina, or a womb, or a stomach, or all sorts of bodily members in that future world? Who can say? St. Justin in his On the Resurrection (which exists today in fragmentary form) argues that we shouldn't assume that everything about our bodies will be the same in the resurrection, though the entire body does rise.

What would sexuality or interpersonal relationship or child-rearing mean in a world without the present experiences and requirements of the body mean? Will children remain children in the Age to Come? Will there be new children brought into the world? Will children age? And to what age will the age? There are myriad questions that we could ask that, I think, were we to have but a small inkling of what that future world has in store would make us laugh at ourselves.

The point is that just because these questions start to sound rather weird and silly the more we try and ask them and probe them--and thus one may interject that the whole idea of the resurrection becomes ridiculous (that is, after all, what the Sadducees were trying to do in the Gospel story, they were trying to make fun of just how ridiculous belief in resurrection sounds)--nevertheless the Christian hope, the whole point of Jesus' own resurrection, is that God is going to do right by His creation, set all things to rights, and bring everything toward its good end in Him.

My mom and dad will still be my mom and dad in the resurrection. That what we call marriage won't be part of that world doesn't mean the love will be gone, that they stop being my mom and dad and that I'm their son. It doesn't mean that the love my parents had for one another will be gone. That the legal union of "husband" and "wife" is non-applicable to that future world won't lessen who they are.

Again, I'm not convinced that there won't be children and the rearing of children in the Age to Come. Because, precisely, such is a good thing; how that could be isn't something I can't dream, imagine, and especially answer. The good can remain without it looking and acting and seeming all the ways it looks, seems at present.

What would it mean to paint a picture in the Age to Come? Or to write? Or to recite poetry, or to sing music, or to put on theater, or to build a home, or play fetch with my dog? No clue. And yet, there will be music, there will be beauty, there will be love, there will be residence, there will be God's creatures. What would "work" look like in a world without labor? And yet, I would like to believe there will be a lot of doing to be done.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

It's also been claimed that we lose our sexuality in the resurrection. But I'm not convinced that this is true, nor am I convinced there won't be new children in the Age to Come.

What point would there be for a penis, or a vagina, or a womb, or a stomach, or all sorts of bodily members in that future world? Who can say? St. Justin in his On the Resurrection (which exists today in fragmentary form) argues that we shouldn't assume that everything about our bodies will be the same in the resurrection, though the entire body does rise.

What would sexuality or interpersonal relationship or child-rearing mean in a world without the present experiences and requirements of the body mean? Will children remain children in the Age to Come? Will there be new children brought into the world? Will children age? And to what age will the age? There are myriad questions that we could ask that, I think, were we to have but a small inkling of what that future world has in store would make us laugh at ourselves.

The point is that just because these questions start to sound rather weird and silly the more we try and ask them and probe them--and thus one may interject that the whole idea of the resurrection becomes ridiculous (that is, after all, what the Sadducees were trying to do in the Gospel story, they were trying to make fun of just how ridiculous belief in resurrection sounds)--nevertheless the Christian hope, the whole point of Jesus' own resurrection, is that God is going to do right by His creation, set all things to rights, and bring everything toward its good end in Him.

My mom and dad will still be my mom and dad in the resurrection. That what we call marriage won't be part of that world doesn't mean the love will be gone, that they stop being my mom and dad and that I'm their son. It doesn't mean that the love my parents had for one another will be gone. That the legal union of "husband" and "wife" is non-applicable to that future world won't lessen who they are.

Again, I'm not convinced that there won't be children and the rearing of children in the Age to Come. Because, precisely, such is a good thing; how that could be isn't something I can't dream, imagine, and especially answer. The good can remain without it looking and acting and seeming all the ways it looks, seems at present.

What would it mean to paint a picture in the Age to Come? Or to write? Or to recite poetry, or to sing music, or to put on theater, or to build a home, or play fetch with my dog? No clue. And yet, there will be music, there will be beauty, there will be love, there will be residence, there will be God's creatures. What would "work" look like in a world without labor? And yet, I would like to believe there will be a lot of doing to be done.

-CryptoLutheran

There is.. one verse from Isaiah 65, which is hands down the most "earthly" of the new earth passages, which on top of showing work, and earthly activities such as building houses and planting fields (to an extent that most people teach it's the Millennium and not the New Earth, but .. God does outright say it is the New Earth), does hint that maybe there is new children born.

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

So, what this verse says, describes that those on the New Earth, are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, so they're children of God... and the clause "and their offspring with them" suggests.. there's future offspring.

But.. without marriage, means that God would have to change laws on fornication... or Jesus only meant Levirite marriage is what passes away not all marriage.

But it's hard to hinge a doctrine on a single clause of a single verse, although to be fair, no marriage after the resurrection is precisely that, a doctrine based on a single verse, although it is a single verse repeated 3 times across 3 synoptic gospels making it more or less "clear" where Isaiah 65 is less clear.

I know we're supposed to believe in the sufficiency of scripture, and it is.. for salvation, but there are some things I find it woefully inadequate for.
This particular subject, is one of them.

I suppose it is a pet biblical issue for me.

 

[timothyu]

What would sexuality or interpersonal relationship or child-rearing mean in a world without the present experiences and requirements of the body mean?

No one has even explained why men need nipples, and that probably goes back to Adam

 

[pc_76]

I guess if there really is going to not be sexuality anymore after Jesus returns and all our relationships will be as brother and sister, I should fornicate if given the opportunity and later ask God for forgiveness. Sure, it might not be family or the way God exactly intended it, but in today's society? Any scraps is probably the best deal I can expect out of today's society. Or if God somehow bends the social reality today in order that I can specifically find fulfillment in that in a way God would deem holy.

Otherwise, if God can honor our free choice by saying "I know you want X, so I'll give you X" without ifs, ands, or buts about it, I would appreciate that.

 

[Jamdoc]

I guess if there really is going to not be sexuality anymore after Jesus returns and all our relationships will be as brother and sister, I should fornicate if given the opportunity and later ask God for forgiveness. Sure, it might not be family or the way God exactly intended it, but in today's society? Any scraps is probably the best deal I can expect out of today's society. Or if God somehow bends the social reality today in order that I can specifically find fulfillment in that in a way God would deem holy.

Otherwise, if God can honor our free choice by saying "I know you want X, so I'll give you X" without ifs, ands, or buts about it, I would appreciate that.

Not the best idea, as if you have given your life to God and He has made certain expectations of you and you try to go against it, God has means of making what you try to do fail, and then further chastises you for the attempt. That's what happened to me I believe.

as Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy 6: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God"

That is what you'd be doing, if you have committed your life to Him and then you willfully sin against Him, expecting Him to forgive you afterward.
I mean sure, that is the promise, that He will not take away His lovingkindness.

However, He will chastise you with the rod.... and it's not a great experience.

You will be corrected... and honestly, if you are NOT corrected.
Fear.
because that means He does not deal with you as a son.

 

[timothyu]

Any scraps is probably the best deal I can expect out of today's society.

Why bother? Down the road a couple years you won't remember sensations anyway.(spoilers?)

 

[pc_76]

Why bother? Down the road a couple years you won't remember sensations anyway.(spoilers?)

I might as well be dead if I can't remember sensations.

 

[timothyu]

I might as well be dead if I can't remember sensations.

That generally happens as we get older and forget, yes.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why bother? Down the road a couple years you won't remember sensations anyway.(spoilers?)

I dunno about that, I can still remember sensations from years ago, sometimes I'll randomly taste something I haven't eaten in years, decades even, or.. have memories of what it felt like from a really nasty bike crash, or being punched in the face, or hit in the back of the head with a rock the size of a brick about 30 years ago.. yeah I can remember what those things felt like.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess if there really is going to not be sexuality anymore after Jesus returns and all our relationships will be as brother and sister, I should fornicate if given the opportunity and later ask God for forgiveness. Sure, it might not be family or the way God exactly intended it, but in today's society? Any scraps is probably the best deal I can expect out of today's society. Or if God somehow bends the social reality today in order that I can specifically find fulfillment in that in a way God would deem holy.

Otherwise, if God can honor our free choice by saying "I know you want X, so I'll give you X" without ifs, ands, or buts about it, I would appreciate that.

When we think "I will do this now and ask forgiveness later" what we are really saying is "I don't want forgiveness, I just want to do what I want".

"I'll punch you in the face, and then ask you to forgive me" begs the question, "Why do you want to punch me in the face?" Why would do that, why would you want to do that?

And therein is the problem, we want to do that.

What we hear from God is, "Find your satisfaction in Me, I'll give you new wants, new desires". A heart that doesn't want to punch you in the face, but a heart that wants to give sit down with you, break bread, and share peace together. That's what the future life is about, and that life begins now; that's the life of faith, that here and now those wants, desires, that heart is being turned God-ward, in conformity to Jesus and His way. That's what we call sanctification. It's not about living a perfect life, it's not about proving "holiness", or some kind of moralistic program--it's about learning a new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and doing. And it happens every day, every moment of every day, as we are hearing God speak to us. As we are living within the Church, hearing God, with Jesus in our midst through His Sacraments, in the love He shows us, in a spirit of hope and peace.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

When we think "I will do this now and ask forgiveness later" what we are really saying is "I don't want forgiveness, I just want to do what I want".

"I'll punch you in the face, and then ask you to forgive me" begs the question, "Why do you want to punch me in the face?" Why would do that, why would you want to do that?

And therein is the problem, we want to do that.

What we hear from God is, "Find your satisfaction in Me, I'll give you new wants, new desires". A heart that doesn't want to punch you in the face, but a heart that wants to give sit down with you, break bread, and share peace together. That's what the future life is about, and that life begins now; that's the life of faith, that here and now those wants, desires, that heart is being turned God-ward, in conformity to Jesus and His way. That's what we call sanctification. It's not about living a perfect life, it's not about proving "holiness", or some kind of moralistic program--it's about learning a new way of seeing, hearing, thinking, and doing. And it happens every day, every moment of every day, as we are hearing God speak to us. As we are living within the Church, hearing God, with Jesus in our midst through His Sacraments, in the love He shows us, in a spirit of hope and peace.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, to a degree. some biological drives (like sex drive) don't just get yanked away. God doesn't take away the desires for food, drink, sleep, sex, protection from environmental extremes, etc.

I have often questioned OP's desire specifically for sex, in a vaccuum, not like, as a part of greater things such as marriage, but just the act itself.

The drive still exists, but what will change is the focus of it, it will be put into the right context, and you will understand that fornication, or a prostitute, will not fulfill what you want, and it will be empty.

 

[pc_76]

Well, to a degree. some biological drives (like sex drive) don't just get yanked away. God doesn't take away the desires for food, drink, sleep, sex, protection from environmental extremes, etc.

I have often questioned OP's desire specifically for sex, in a vaccuum, not like, as a part of greater things such as marriage, but just the act itself.

The drive still exists, but what will change is the focus of it, it will be put into the right context, and you will understand that fornication, or a prostitute, will not fulfill what you want, and it will be empty.

You don't really know all about my desire. The ability to have a relationship that happens to involve sex is the icing on the cake. An analogy would be like wanting or craving a cupcake but there are no more cupcakes so you just lick the remaining frosting.