• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why does the earth rotate?

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus made claims and little you and science can't say diddly squat about it.

Mohammed made claims and little you and Christianity can't say diddly squat about it.

See how this doesn't work? The fact that a claim was made means nothing. Claims must be tested before we should believe them.

Of course not as far as clueless science goes. They have no ability to verify anything anywhere or anytime out of the present state.

I've yet to see you verify anything.

Yes they are. Where you been? I have seen strange stuff.

Show me the dead people coming back to life. Show me seas being parted. Show me limbs growing back.

Until then, no, the so-called "miracles" of today are nothing like those in the Bible.

Forgiveness of sins was always far greater than the Barnum and Bailey show stuff. I grew a new heart! My eyes were blind but now see! There are gifts of the spirit that Christians have that are out of this world! Some of us know stuff magically, and pray for healings, and have deep wisdom from God, and have ability to teach, and help folks etc etc. God's gifts and workings through us change with the times as needed. Same Spirit.

I seem to recall Moses being served well by the "Barnum & Bailey" show stuff pretty well. Staff turning into a snake. Seven plagues and all that. God apparently doesn't have a problem with that show stuff, so why do you?

Most folks that God sought out and found and saved had that same experience before He got to us!

I know Muslims who have said the same thing about Mohammed and Allah. Of course, you don't think that counts, do you?

Not at all. People don't get a vote as to whether Jesus will return to earth and rule. What is important is that we all get a real opportunity to believe and know Jesus. Those that prefer darkness and death have chosen their path. The paths do not change when more people walk over one or the other.

So then you agree with me that the popularity of a claim is no indication of how accurate it is?

Your attempt at rational discussion was to talk about little thingies smashing into each other and causing the earth to rotate or some such...right? 'A lot of imaginary little teensy thingies eventually caused momentum and made the earth rotate'!! Nice fable.

Will you stop telling lies about me to my face? I NEVER claimed that the Earth's rotation was caused by collisions. NEVER. If you do it again I will report you for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Only as far as the abilities of science to discern the traces goes. Scripture gives us lots of traces of the past. Don't blame us.

Such a shame reality doesn't provide any traces of it either.

I never read the bible 4500 years ago. That was likely roughly when any state change happened, not recently when we read stuff.

But you've only ever read the Bible in the past, haven't you? You obviously haven't read it in the future, and you certainly aren't reading it right now, as you are reading my post. So stop applying your knowledge of the past to the present and projecting it into the future.

The enlightened and informed side beckons....come one...come all.

I once knew of a used car salesman who used to claim his cars were "the ones you could trust." Of course, his cars were about as reliable as your stories. Guess how far the cars went.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
A conspiracy is your strawman - I don't think I ever said such a thing. If you think ego's are a conspiracy then it just shows you your desperation to now throw conspiracy theories into the mix in order to distract from the science.

No one is ignoring the truth about why the earth rotates but you - the scientists are indeed theorizing on it's true cause - yet for some reason you want to argue against the scientists that you claim you support?

http://www.livescience.com/39780-magnetic-field-pushes-earth-core.html

Ahhh - because they are not theorizing Fairie Dust but actual laboratory tested forces instead of supporting null results.

I understand. I understand your reluctance to put down the View-Masster, because if you did for that brief flash of time you would have to actually "see."

Do those excuses sound as lame to you as well in the back of your mind for ignoring the science?

Tell me why I should ignore the vast majority of cosmologists and instead listen to you and a handful of people (at best) who claim that this plasma model is correct?
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Tell me why I should ignore the vast majority of cosmologists and instead listen to you and a handful of people (at best) who claim that this plasma model is correct?

Perhaps because it is Plasma Physicists telling you how plasma behaves? Just a thought.

Isn't it one of your big arguments that if one is sick one goes to a doctor - not a geologist let's say (when it comes to evolution)? So now when it comes to the behavior of plasma you suddenly want to avoid going to the experts on it's behavior - why is this?????

Why should we listen to cosmologists that don't have a clue about plasma behavior in a universe 99% plasma?

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1970/alfven-lecture.pdf

"The cosmical plasma physics of today is far less advanced than the thermonuclear research physics. It is to some extent the playground of theoreticians who have never seen a plasma in a laboratory. Many of them still believe in formulae which we know from laboratory experiments to be wrong. The astrophysical correspondence to the thermonuclear crisis has not yet come."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps because it is Plasma Physicists telling you how plasma behaves? Just a thought.

Isn't it one of your big arguments that if one is sick one goes to a doctor - not a geologist let's say (when it comes to evolution)? So now when it comes to the behavior of plasma you suddenly want to avoid going to the experts on it's behavior - why is this?????

Why should we listen to cosmologists that don't have a clue about plasma behavior in a universe 99% plasma?

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1970/alfven-lecture.pdf

"The cosmical plasma physics of today is far less advanced than the thermonuclear research physics. It is to some extent the playground of theoreticians who have never seen a plasma in a laboratory. Many of them still believe in formulae which we know from laboratory experiments to be wrong. The astrophysical correspondence to the thermonuclear crisis has not yet come."

I am wanting to learn how the universe operates. So when I have the vast majority of scientists who study the universe say one thing and a mere handful say "plasma", I'm going to go with the majority who say otherwise.

Likewise, if I am sick and I see that most of the healers say, "Surgery" and a handful say "homeopathy," I'm going to conclude that the handful promoting homeopathy are wrong.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Such a shame reality doesn't provide any traces of it either.
Not for your same state past. All history and God's word provide a record of real differences in the far past.


But you've only ever read the Bible in the past, haven't you?
One reads the bible in the present.
All men have read it in the present state, since that was when God started to deliver it. It covers the past and future though. Science doesn't.

I once knew of a used car salesman who used to claim his cars were "the ones you could trust." Of course, his cars were about as reliable as your stories. Guess how far the cars went.
Guess how far science goes?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I am wanting to learn how the universe operates. So when I have the vast majority of scientists who study the universe say one thing and a mere handful say "plasma", I'm going to go with the majority who say otherwise.
To learn how the universe operates one would not ask little men who have never been anywhere. One would be better to ask the One who created it. That is why science is not about knowing. They do not know and never ever can or will know.
Likewise, if I am sick and I see that most of the healers say, "Surgery" and a handful say "homeopathy," I'm going to conclude that the handful promoting homeopathy are wrong.

When I see that the healers do sex change operations, unneeded cesareans, murder infants by the millions, and peddle drugs for whoever bribes them the most, etc... I would take anything they say with a grain of salt.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,322
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
To learn how the universe operates one would not ask little men who have never been anywhere. One would be better to ask the One who created it.

Well, He ain't talking.
 
Upvote 0

patrick jane

MAD Bible Believer
Site Supporter
Jun 22, 2015
2,454
1,327
56
St. Louis - Ephesians 2:6-8
Visit site
✟155,028.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,322
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Yes, Jesus came according to the words He talked, and rose from the dead. He talked.

He talked. Then He stopped. Asking Him isn't an option anymore.
 
Upvote 0

TLK Valentine

I've already read the books you want burned.
Apr 15, 2012
64,493
30,322
Behind the 8-ball, but ahead of the curve.
✟541,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Sure He is. God's creation testifies of Him, with every detail of goodness.

1 John 5:7 - 1 John 5:8 KJV -

I suspect I'm hearing a much different message than dad is...
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Not for your same state past. All history and God's word provide a record of real differences in the far past.

No it doesn't. It's an old story, nothing more. Until you verify "god's word", you have no way to show that it actually applies in reality.

One reads the bible in the present.

So are you reading it right now? As in literally this very second? Of course not, because you are reading my post here, aren't you?

So don't try any of your past knowledge on me. You have said it doesn't apply to the present.

All men have read it in the present state, since that was when God started to deliver it. It covers the past and future though. Science doesn't.

So when they sent out New Horizons to Pluto all those years ago, having designed its course to take it past Pluto, I suppose they were just guessing?

Or maybe - JUST MAYBE - they used their knowledge of science to figure out where the probe would be in their future.

Guess how far science goes?

Further than your ancient stories.

It was science that got me pregnant with the only child I'll ever have, not your god.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
To learn how the universe operates one would not ask little men who have never been anywhere.

Like priests, shepherds and various other folk who lived confined to one small area of the Middle East?

One would be better to ask the One who created it. That is why science is not about knowing. They do not know and never ever can or will know.

So God can come and tell me himself. I don't need a book that was written by man.

When I see that the healers do sex change operations, unneeded cesareans, murder infants by the millions, and peddle drugs for whoever bribes them the most, etc... I would take anything they say with a grain of salt.

I gotta agree with you on the unneeded c sections. But gender reassignment surgeries can do a lot of good, and you're just spouting nonsense on the millions of babies killed and drug peddling. Care to provide sources for these claims?
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No it doesn't. It's an old story, nothing more. Until you verify "god's word", you have no way to show that it actually applies in reality.
Your claim that God's proven time tested word is a 'story' is without any basis in reality of fact whatsoever.


So are you reading it right now? As in literally this very second? Of course not, because you are reading my post here, aren't you?
As others may have done. Work on trying to make posts of some value.
So don't try any of your past knowledge on me. You have said it doesn't apply to the present.
False. The truth and lessons apply. Not the physics.


So when they sent out New Horizons to Pluto all those years ago, having designed its course to take it past Pluto, I suppose they were just guessing?
?? No more than guessing there is a moon that we see.
Or maybe - JUST MAYBE - they used their knowledge of science to figure out where the probe would be in their future.
Context. In this discussion the past refers to some point beyond where our laws applied. Obviously they have applied in our solar system for hundreds and even thousands of years.

It was science that got me pregnant with the only child I'll ever have, not your god.
False. Science could do nothing at all without God's laws, and materials that He provided.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So God can come and tell me himself. I don't need a book that was written by man.
Jesus did that.


I gotta agree with you on the unneeded c sections. But gender reassignment surgeries can do a lot of good,

About as much good as a witch turning a man into a goat.

and you're just spouting nonsense on the millions of babies killed and drug peddling. Care to provide sources for these claims?
Here is a taste..


"
Physicians and surgeons have most frequently been the targets of these marketing efforts since they are viewed as the customers, even though patients are the ultimate consumers of the drugs.

As an example of how influential the marketing of drugs can be, Petersen noted that in 2003, for the first time, more psychotropic drugs were prescribed to children than antibiotics and asthma medications in the United States. Petersen suggests that the mass drug marketing has transformed pediatrics from a specialty whose sole purpose was the diagnosis and treatment of physical illness, to a specialty that focuses on altering children’s undesired behavior by medicating them. Petersen describes a variety of ways in which drug manufacturers aggressively mass market their drugs to physicians and surgeons. The story she tells is a sad one. The following are among the strategies she discusses:

1. Ghost-written articles

Petersen details the prevalence of corporations that have been created to ghost-write articles for the medical literature, which portray new medications as being comparatively more advantageous than existing medications, safer for the patient and, as a result, an advancement in the treatment of disease or illness. These ghost-written articles invariably present the results of clinical trials in a manner that distort the drug’s potential advantages, while simultaneously minimizing potential short-term, long-term and even fatal complications. This is often accomplished by selecting clinical trials that appear to demonstrate the new medication’s advantages, while eliminating those clinical trials that do not support its efficacy and safety.

2. Marketing themes

Petersen describes classic Madison Avenue marketing approaches by drug companies to promote their medications much in the same way that non-medical commercial products are marketed to consumers. The drug companies create a marketing theme and relentlessly promote that theme, creating sometimes false, and often dangerous, impressions about their newer and profitable medications.

As an example, Petersen goes into great detail about the marketing of narcotic painkillers. These painkillers were formally thought of as appropriate for cancer patients, but not appropriate for the generalized treatment of chronic pain. The theme of the marketing efforts was, and continues to be, that the dangers of narcotic painkillers have been overstated and that patients are needlessly suffering because of the “myth” of drug dependence or addiction. One company in particular flew health care professionals to resorts like Boca Raton, Fla. and Scottsdale, Ariz. “…where they were wined and dined and trained as speakers to spread the word that painkillers like OxyContin were safe.” As Peterson noted, “For thousands of Americans, this proved untrue.”

3. Wining and dining physicians and surgeons

Petersen documents that drug companies fastidiously collect information on the prescription patterns of physicians and surgeons by collecting pharmaceutical information. By collecting data on their prescription habits, drug companies can identify the physicians to target in their effort to reward those who prescribe their medications, as well as influence those who do not. Petersen describes the direct financial rewards provided to physicians and surgeons which have included trips, meals and direct cash payments. As Petersen noted, “Doctors have continued taking the loot, despite studies showing that even gifts as small as a pen could imbue them with the sense that they owe the pharmaceutical company a favor, a quandary that could be quickly solved by writing more prescriptions.”

4. Compensating physicians and surgeons as speakers and/or consultants

One method of rewarding physicians who frequently prescribe a company’s medications to their patients is by compensating them as speakers for the company. Petersen documents that, “A marketing firm called Thompson Physician World said in a 2002 brochure that it had signed up more than 20,000 physicians to speak on behalf of the drug industry. These doctors, Physician World stated, would ‘become critical lynchpins in product positioning.’” The speaker fees are also a reward for the use and promotion of a company’s drugs.

5. Drug representatives as a sales force

Although theoretically drug representatives are supposed to provide objective information, Petersen leaves little doubt that they are highly trained sales personnel. Their function is to persuade physicians and surgeons to increase sales volume by persuading the medical profession to prescribe newer and more expensive drugs to patients, even though most of these drugs are variations that offer little more than older medications. A secondary function of the sales representative is to assuage concerns physicians have when there are reports of potentially serious adverse consequences to drugs that have been heavily marketed to physicians and surgeons. The sales reps receive training in assuaging physician concerns related to adverse drug effects and in effective promotion of the drugs in the face of reports of these adverse outcomes."

http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/b...industry-and-physician-relationships-explored
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Your claim that God's proven time tested word is a 'story' is without any basis in reality of fact whatsoever.

All the other "time tested words of God" have been proven to be so, and you accept that. So don't say it's without basis.

As others may have done. Work on trying to make posts of some value.

So you admit that you have only read the Bible in the past, not the present. Stop applying past state nonsense to the present state!

False. The truth and lessons apply. Not the physics.

The physics underlies it all.

?? No more than guessing there is a moon that we see.

So they knew. They were able to use their present state knowledge to get information about the future state.

Funny, huh?

Context. In this discussion the past refers to some point beyond where our laws applied. Obviously they have applied in our solar system for hundreds and even thousands of years.

Except you can't say exactly when they changed, what caused them to change or even provide evidence from the real world that there was a change.

False. Science could do nothing at all without God's laws, and materials that He provided.

My husband prayed for years. And that got us squat. God had nothing to do with it.
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus did that.

Shame he never came and said hello to me.

About as much good as a witch turning a man into a goat.

You've never seen what happens to people who are constantly demeaned for trying to be who they are, have you?

Here is a taste..


"
Physicians and surgeons have most frequently been the targets of these marketing efforts since they are viewed as the customers, even though patients are the ultimate consumers of the drugs.

As an example of how influential the marketing of drugs can be, Petersen noted that in 2003, for the first time, more psychotropic drugs were prescribed to children than antibiotics and asthma medications in the United States. Petersen suggests that the mass drug marketing has transformed pediatrics from a specialty whose sole purpose was the diagnosis and treatment of physical illness, to a specialty that focuses on altering children’s undesired behavior by medicating them. Petersen describes a variety of ways in which drug manufacturers aggressively mass market their drugs to physicians and surgeons. The story she tells is a sad one. The following are among the strategies she discusses:

1. Ghost-written articles

Petersen details the prevalence of corporations that have been created to ghost-write articles for the medical literature, which portray new medications as being comparatively more advantageous than existing medications, safer for the patient and, as a result, an advancement in the treatment of disease or illness. These ghost-written articles invariably present the results of clinical trials in a manner that distort the drug’s potential advantages, while simultaneously minimizing potential short-term, long-term and even fatal complications. This is often accomplished by selecting clinical trials that appear to demonstrate the new medication’s advantages, while eliminating those clinical trials that do not support its efficacy and safety.

2. Marketing themes

Petersen describes classic Madison Avenue marketing approaches by drug companies to promote their medications much in the same way that non-medical commercial products are marketed to consumers. The drug companies create a marketing theme and relentlessly promote that theme, creating sometimes false, and often dangerous, impressions about their newer and profitable medications.

As an example, Petersen goes into great detail about the marketing of narcotic painkillers. These painkillers were formally thought of as appropriate for cancer patients, but not appropriate for the generalized treatment of chronic pain. The theme of the marketing efforts was, and continues to be, that the dangers of narcotic painkillers have been overstated and that patients are needlessly suffering because of the “myth” of drug dependence or addiction. One company in particular flew health care professionals to resorts like Boca Raton, Fla. and Scottsdale, Ariz. “…where they were wined and dined and trained as speakers to spread the word that painkillers like OxyContin were safe.” As Peterson noted, “For thousands of Americans, this proved untrue.”

3. Wining and dining physicians and surgeons

Petersen documents that drug companies fastidiously collect information on the prescription patterns of physicians and surgeons by collecting pharmaceutical information. By collecting data on their prescription habits, drug companies can identify the physicians to target in their effort to reward those who prescribe their medications, as well as influence those who do not. Petersen describes the direct financial rewards provided to physicians and surgeons which have included trips, meals and direct cash payments. As Petersen noted, “Doctors have continued taking the loot, despite studies showing that even gifts as small as a pen could imbue them with the sense that they owe the pharmaceutical company a favor, a quandary that could be quickly solved by writing more prescriptions.”

4. Compensating physicians and surgeons as speakers and/or consultants

One method of rewarding physicians who frequently prescribe a company’s medications to their patients is by compensating them as speakers for the company. Petersen documents that, “A marketing firm called Thompson Physician World said in a 2002 brochure that it had signed up more than 20,000 physicians to speak on behalf of the drug industry. These doctors, Physician World stated, would ‘become critical lynchpins in product positioning.’” The speaker fees are also a reward for the use and promotion of a company’s drugs.

5. Drug representatives as a sales force

Although theoretically drug representatives are supposed to provide objective information, Petersen leaves little doubt that they are highly trained sales personnel. Their function is to persuade physicians and surgeons to increase sales volume by persuading the medical profession to prescribe newer and more expensive drugs to patients, even though most of these drugs are variations that offer little more than older medications. A secondary function of the sales representative is to assuage concerns physicians have when there are reports of potentially serious adverse consequences to drugs that have been heavily marketed to physicians and surgeons. The sales reps receive training in assuaging physician concerns related to adverse drug effects and in effective promotion of the drugs in the face of reports of these adverse outcomes."

http://www.healio.com/orthopedics/business-of-orthopedics/news/print/orthopedics-today/{0e6d669f-418d-41ed-ab98-13294b19ffa5}/pushing-drugs-pharmaceutical-industry-and-physician-relationships-explored

And this puts doctors on the same level as drug dealers, huh? Seems more like greedy corporations to me...
 
Upvote 0