Why does Paganism scare Christians?

[morningstar2651]

At least know what you're talking about before you post junk like that. Every theology I know of in Christianity understands the 10 commandments as a summary of the 613, and also understands that the 613 are not possible to follow in this day and age. Furthermore, Jesus raises the bar on the 613 and makes following His teaching much harder. Stuff like pray for you enemies, give people the shirt off your back, don't even look at a person with lustful intentions....pretty hard.

It's easy to follow the rules if you ignore 600 of them.

That's called lowering the bar, not raising the bar.

 

[morningstar2651]

Maybe Christian Forums isn't the best place for you then? See ya.

Maybe this section of the website isn't the best place for you if you can't treat others the way you would want to be treated?

 

[ContraMundum]

It's easy to follow the rules if you ignore 600 of them.

That's called lowering the bar, not raising the bar.

You've just being argumentative now. Sorry, I've already won the point if you can't address when I wrote with any honesty.

 

[morningstar2651]

But it's only meaningful in your imagination. Has your country stopped making scientific discoveries because people in power question currently evolutionary theory (or more likely, claim to do so to get votes)? No. Stop the hysteria.

Nobody claimed that. Not one. Well, I guess that is an easy argument to soundly defeat...since NOBODY HERE BELIEVES IT.

That's why they call it a straw man. You constructed it and destroyed it because you were wrong and are unable to show that you were right. We pointed out that Christianity exerts political influence in this country and pointed out what sort of negative influence it exerts. You responded with "Well, at least we haven't completely destroyed your society...I guess there's that"

Nice. Bitter much? How come you have a Christian in your avatar then? Dee Snider has said he was a Christian before senators and many times since.

I can't stand people like you. Dee is not like you. He isn't a jerk...he's actually a pretty friendly guy. He must have listened to Jesus when he talked about treating others the way they wanted to be treated and loving their neighbors.

I think you just want Christians that do what you want them to- bow to you and shut up. Sorry I'm not bowing to you or tickling your ears. I tell it like it is. Judge me all you like. I've got plenty of friends and support int he real world.

Nah, I just prefer it when people don't treat me like crap. I figure you might feel the same way...so why do you treat other people like crap?

You claim to be a follower of Jesus. Jesus commands that you treat others the way you wish to be treated. You treat others like crap...therefore, you must want us to treat you like crap.

See? Logical.

 

[ContraMundum]

Here is some "missionary work" that ContraMundum referred to.

Northern Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The east Baltic world was transformed by military conquest: first the Livs, Latgallians and Estonians, then the Semigallians, Curonians, Prussians and the Finns underwent defeat, baptism, military occupation and sometimes extermination by groups of Danes, Germans and Swedes.

Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia It is Our will that all the peoples who are ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans....The rest, whom We adjudge demented and insane, shall sustain the infamy of heretical dogmas, their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine vengeance and secondly by the retribution of Our own initiative"

Goa Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia If any one of the race of the Saxons hereafter concealed among them shall have wished to hide himself unbaptized, and shall have scorned to come to baptism and shall have wished to remain a pagan, let him be punished by death.

Been there, done that. To death. Again, you present only one side of the issue because the other side actually scares you more- that missionaries made converts, not soldiers, and missionaries present a God that actually turns up and makes the change. Soldiers take territory, but don't change hearts. When God turns up- well, that's what you're really afraid of I think.

Pity you just don't get this.

This thread is more about pagans afraid of Christianity or God than it is about an imaginary or at best wildly exaggerated fear of paganism.

 

[morningstar2651]

You've just being argumentative now. Sorry, I've already won the point if you can't address when I wrote with any honesty.

Go ahead. Declare your victory. Celebrate. You're a real winner. We all think you're a winner. Everyone is clapping for you.

 

[morningstar2651]

Been there, done that. To death. Again, you present only one side of the issue because the other side actually scares you more- that missionaries made converts, not soldiers, and missionaries present a God that actually turns up and makes the change. Soldiers take territory, but don't change hearts. When God turns up- well, that's what you're really afraid of I think.

Pity you just don't get this.

This thread is more about pagans afraid of Christianity or God than it is about an imaginary or at best wildly exaggerated fear of paganism.

Maybe crusades, theocracies, inquisitions, and the like are kinda scary when their aimed in your general direction? Have you ever considered that?

You have nothing to fear from us...we're not trying to convert you. We're not out to save your soul whether you like it or not. We're not going to threaten your life if you don't bow down to our gods.

 

[ContraMundum]

That's why they call it a straw man. You constructed it and destroyed it because you were wrong and are unable to show that you were right. We pointed out that Christianity exerts political influence in this country and pointed out what sort of negative influence it exerts.

You did? I must've missed that. I don't see any laws being passed as threatening to science or anything. I say the empirical evidence shows that the US is still leading nation in science despite being backward in religion.

You responded with "Well, at least we haven't completely destroyed your society...I guess there's that"

I did? Put it this way, if you want to change the topic to an allegation that your society is going down the gurgler, go for it. I'll be in there too. But I'll lay the blame at the feet of the human condition, not at the feet of one group over another, as I think you might.

I can't stand people like you. Dee is not like you. He isn't a jerk...he's actually a pretty friendly guy. He must have listened to Jesus when he talked about treating others the way they wanted to be treated and loving their neighbors.

You're being judgemental beyond what is reasonable. You don't know Dee. I do. I've met him more than casually (admittedly quite some time ago now) and I've played music publically with the people he hangs with or have been in his various bands. Dee was nice and probably is even nicer now, but so am I, and if I know him at all- he'd certainly call you on this as well.

Nah, I just prefer it when people don't treat me like crap. I figure you might feel the same way...so why do you treat other people like crap?

I don't think I've treated you like crap, no. I've treated your posts as largely angry tirades, which I think is how they read- and this is not the first time either. You on the other hand went ad-hom immediately. Try to relax and stay focussed on the issues and not read into posts that disagree with you as being written by "jerks". It's not the way a forum should run. Think before you engage keyboard! Give people's intentions the benefit of the doubt.

 

[ContraMundum]

Maybe crusades, theocracies, inquisitions, and the like are kinda scary when their aimed in your general direction? Have you ever considered that?

I'm Jewish. I know all about it. But I don't think that is happening now.

You have nothing to fear from us...we're not trying to convert you. We're not out to save your soul whether you like it or not. We're not going to threaten your life if you don't bow down to our gods.

Nor are we. I've never been to war to make people believe my religion. In fact, my religion forbids it and anyone claiming to wage war for my religion is not an adherent. Perhaps your problem is with Christendom, not with Christianity. I'd be on your side if that was the case.

 

[ContraMundum]

Go ahead. Declare your victory. Celebrate. You're a real winner. We all think you're a winner. Everyone is clapping for you.

Not the way I think, MS. I just hate investing time into something that I think could be worthwhile while the other party isn't actually reading what I type.

 

[morningstar2651]

I'm Jewish. I know all about it. But I don't think that is happening now.

I never said they're happening now. Weren't YOU the one who said that people have never been forcibly converted to Christianity? That's why I even mentioned the historical trend of forcible conversions in the first place!

 

[ContraMundum]

I never said they're happening now. Weren't YOU the one who said that people have never been forcibly converted to Christianity? That's why I even mentioned the historical trend of forcible conversions in the first place!

I don't think I've ever said such a broad blanket statement. What we have is a language difficulty here. You can't force a person to become a Christian. You can politically call them a Christian, but they still won't be a Christian. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"

I do believe that there have been political wars where religion has been named the scapegoat or at least the motive. I do know that in some areas of the world (including where Christian missionaries were tortured and executed) Kings and leaders were converted by missionaries and not through forced conversions. They in turn used their political power to bring their nations into religious unity back in the day when that mattered a lot. Other leaders fought wars to enforce Christianity on other political forces or entities but that never made a single Christian. Declaring a law that everyone will believe the same thing does not make it so.

So I accept all of the political wars etc as part of history, but I will not dismiss the missionary activity, the Christian martyrs, the true conversions by faith etc as being a minor force in the changing of the world. Do a lengthy, sincere study on Christian missionary history and you'll be pretty surprised. They never sent those guys and gals out with swords, but they certainly had a few raised against them and were put to death by the pagans quite often.

So, while you might want to raise a case against the "Christians" as using the sword, it's not hard to see that the pagans didn't think twice about it and certainly had a history of forced conversions as well (in particular in northern Europe). So what gives the pagans the higher moral ground? Nothing. Nothing at all. You're simply picking the side that lost militarily and there is no moral high ground to be won.

 

[morningstar2651]

You did? I must've missed that. I don't see any laws being passed as threatening to science or anything. I say the empirical evidence shows that the US is still leading nation in science despite being backward in religion.

I never claimed that. You did. That's your claim. Not mine. Now continue pummeling your regularly scheduled strawman.

You're being judgemental beyond what is reasonable.

Nah, I'm being reasonable about it. You've just got your panties in a twist because I'm standing up to you when you misbehave.

You don't know Dee. I do. I've met him more than casually (admittedly quite some time ago now) and I've played music publically with the people he hangs with or have been in his various bands. Dee was nice and probably is even nicer now, but so am I, and if I know him at all- he'd certainly call you on this as well.

Cool story bro.

I don't think I've treated you like crap, no.

Well perhaps you should re-evaluate how you express yourself to others on this forum then...because you're kind of a jerk. You told us Pagans that we chose our religion because Christianity is too hard for us. You told us Pagans that you think our religion should die with the hippies. And then you get all indignant when we call you out on your appalling behavior. You aren't talking about some nebulous hypothetical people. You're talking about us. We're real people, and you're saying some pretty crappy things about us like we're not even here. I figured you'd not mind me doing the same to you - after all, you treat others the way you want to be treated...do you not? I'd hoped you'd learn this lesson without me spelling it out for you. All I've done is treat you the way you treat others.

I've treated your posts as largely angry tirades, which I think is how they read- and this is not the first time either. You on the other hand went ad-hom immediately. Try to relax and stay focussed on the issues and not read into posts that disagree with you as being written by "jerks". It's not the way a forum should run. Think before you engage keyboard! Give people's intentions the benefit of the doubt.

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. I ran out of doubts to give you.

 

[ContraMundum]

Well perhaps you should re-evaluate how you express yourself to others on this forum then...because you're kind of a jerk.

Very interesting.

You told us Pagans that we chose our religion because Christianity is too hard for us.

Yes, I think that is true. Ask me why.

You told us Pagans that you think our religion should die with the hippies.

Not should, but will. Why is my prediction offensive? You can disagree. I won't mind. But at least put up a reason why that seems absurd to you. I will listen.

And then you get all indignant when we call you out on your appalling behavior. You aren't talking about some nebulous hypothetical people. You're talking about us. We're real people, and you're saying some pretty crappy things about us like we're not even here. I figured you'd not mind me doing the same to you - after all, you treat others the way you want to be treated...do you not? I'd hoped you'd learn this lesson without me spelling it out for you. All I've done is treat you the way you treat others.

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt. I ran out of doubts to give you.

Dude, I seriously don't mind being called a jerk by a militant anti-Christian 29yo man who likes glam rock. I won't even recall it next time I'm having dinner with one of your idols. Someone who doesn't know me telling me a I'm a jerk on the internet doesn't rate high on my self-assesment checklist. It really doesn't make me upset in the slightest and I will sleep just fine at night without the help of drugs or booze or anti-depressants or whatever. So how about just abstaining from the ad-hom because it wastes your time?

 

[morningstar2651]

Very interesting.



Yes, I think that is true. Ask me why.

Okay. Why?

Not should, but will. Why is my prediction offensive? You can disagree. I won't mind. But at least put up a reason why that seems absurd to you. I will listen.

A should is more offensive than will. As for the prediction that it will...what do you base this prediction on?

Dude, I seriously don't mind being called a jerk by a militant anti-Christian 29yo man who likes glam rock. I won't even recall it next time I'm having dinner with one of your idols.

How about just abstaining from the ad-hom because it wastes your time?

Someone who doesn't know me telling me a I'm a jerk on the internet doesn't rate high on my self-assesment checklist. It really doesn't make me upset in the slightest and I will sleep just fine at night without the help of drugs or booze or anti-depressants or whatever. So how about just abstaining from the ad-hom because it wastes your time?

Okay. Go and do likewise.

 

[ContraMundum]

Okay. Why?

I compare what is requested of you in paganism (which seems largely arbitrary and self-determined) with what is requested of a Christian (rather stringent and hard, and it takes a lifetime of reformation) and I see how much harder the path is, how much harder it is to make up your own rules and I draw the conclusion that Christianity is far harder than paganism to believe and follow.

Secondly, the pagans I have met generally have a grudge against institutionalised religion, and do not seem terribly interested in helping other beyond what is convenient. I ask them what laws they are bound to and no one gives me the same answer, nor do I see them as getting to the bottom of that question, discovering its source and investigating its authority- all stuff Christians have to do.

Lastly, when discussing Jesus (not the Church) with pagans, they seem to find Him attractive but find His lifestyle too stringent. Is that you're opinion too?

Now, if you think there are better ways to understand your beliefs, just post an authorative source for me and I promise I'll spend time on it.

A should is more offensive than will. As for the prediction that it will...what do you base this prediction on?

My understanding of our post-modern, post-Christian world view. I think people are tired of airey-fairey religions and want more. That is why the Church is changing (I think it is being changed by God) and the New Age shops are closing down. I equate Neo-Paganism with New Age-ism because of the shared lack of spiritual authority and inability to be either verified or falsified. People will reject it and the only ones championing it are people in the later stages of life.

Most pagans I know are well on their way out and seriously contemplating fresh yet ancient forms of religion.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think people are tired of airey-fairey religions and want more. That is why the Church is changing (I think it is being changed by God) and the New Age shops are closing down.

I think that is far more due to the Internet than anything else. Physical bookstores in general are closing down.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[morningstar2651]

I compare what is requested of you in paganism (which seems largely arbitrary and self-determined) with what is requested of a Christian (rather stringent and hard, and it takes a lifetime of reformation) and I see how much harder the path is, how much harder it is to make up your own rules and I draw the conclusion that Christianity is far harder than paganism to believe and follow.

A religion's value isn't determined by the difficulty people have in following it.

Secondly, the pagans I have met generally have a grudge against institutionalised religion, and do not seem terribly interested in helping other beyond what is convenient. I ask them what laws they are bound to and no one gives me the same answer, nor do I see them as getting to the bottom of that question, discovering its source and investigating its authority- all stuff Christians have to do.

Paganism is a very broad category of religions...it's more broad than Christianity. It's "Abrahamic" broad. If you ask a Muslim, a Christian, a Mormon, and a Jew what laws they follow, there will be differences. Sure, there might be a little overlap...but they won't be the same. This diversity within the broad category isn't a bad thing.

As for me, my beliefs and practices have a strong foundation in Thelema. It's a system that makes sense and works for me...I don't expect it to work for you...or really for anyone else for that matter. It doesn't need to.

For me, religion is a very personal thing. It's an intimate relationship between a person and deity...and it's not a one-size-fits-all sort of situation. If Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or even Scientology work for you...then that is the religion you should stick with.

Lastly, when discussing Jesus (not the Church) with pagans, they seem to find Him attractive but find His lifestyle too stringent. Is that you're opinion too?

If by his lifestyle you mean giving up all worldly possessions and travelling the world preaching, then yes...otherwise I would have done that back when I was a Christian.

Now, if you think there are better ways to understand your beliefs, just post an authorative source for me and I promise I'll spend time on it.

Crowley can be incredibly abstruse, and I don't expect you to slog through his writings. However, if you were to make an attempt to understand my beliefs, here are the sources I'd recommend.

• Liber II by Aleister Crowley - short, sweet, and to the point.
• Liber CL by Aleister Crowley - not so short, not so sweet...not nearly as difficult to get through as the majority of his writing though.
• The Magick of Aleister Crowley by Lon Milo DuQuette - this is long and not free, but a much more in-depth look at Thelemic beliefs and practices.

My understanding of our post-modern, post-Christian world view. I think people are tired of airey-fairey religions and want more. That is why the Church is changing (I think it is being changed by God) and the New Age shops are closing down. I equate Neo-Paganism with New Age-ism because of the shared lack of spiritual authority and inability to be either verified or falsified. People will reject it and the only ones championing it are people in the later stages of life.

There is some definite overlap with new age, and not everyone is thrilled with that overlap. I'm Pagan, but I'm not terribly new-agey. I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to new-agey stuff.

The new age shops aren't closing due to lack of popularity of the subject - they're closing because there are better and cheaper places to acquire the same materials (Barnes & Noble).

Most pagans I know are well on their way out and seriously contemplating fresh yet ancient forms of religion.

There are also quite a lot of neo-Pagans that are moving into Pagan reconstructionism.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I think we're straying quite far into "No True Christian"-territory here, but...

isn't one of the defining features of Christianity that it claims to NOT require anything? No intellectual grasp of abstract concepts, no meditation or other mind-expanding techniques, no catalogue of laws and observances - ritual or otherwise - that must be kept: just Jesus. Jesus saves.
Different denominations do not put the same amount of emphasis on that point, and some even include "works" into the equation for salvation, but at the end of the day, it still boils down to the same statement:
You can be the worst person on the planet, and yet still be saved if you just point to Jesus and proclaim "HE died in my place".
Is that a morally bankrupt arrangement? You bet! But many Christians do not seem to grasp that. Heck, they even filmed this little commercial, never quite realizing how bad it made their religion (and them) look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Personally, I think that the authoritarian, exclusivist religions of the past are on their way out - and the radicalization we see within these right now (grouped together under the term "religious fundamentalism") is but a death rattle, akin to fading empires trumping up spectacular military parades and thumping their chests.