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Fifty years from now, Christians will look back at the issue and point to all the liberal theologians who have been supportive of same-sex relationships all along, and they'll say that their exegesis of the Scriptures has always been the most reflective of the true New Testament spirit.
Then they'll claim that Christianity was the force that brought the change about - another glorious victory!
That's how it has always worked, in relation to just about any social issue.
No one, except for the most deluded of fluff bunnies who also believe that Wicca is an unadulterated stone age religion inspired by the lost lore of Atlantis.Who would say that pagans were always good?
Fifty years from now, Christians will look back at the issue and point to all the liberal theologians who have been supportive of same-sex relationships all along, and they'll say that their exegesis of the Scriptures has always been the most reflective of the true New Testament spirit.
Then they'll claim that Christianity was the force that brought the change about - another glorious victory!
That's how it has always worked, in relation to just about any social issue.
They probably won't en masse accept them but I imagine it will be the default to say "oh yeah church X and person Y were totally in favor of that!".
By and large, fundamentalism is an American phenomenon. Other parts of the world are considerably saner in this regard. Yet even in the USA, the religious hardliners are losing ground as we speak, and discrimination is on the way out.That's a big call, considering that liberal theology is pretty much on the way out and doesn't look like reviving either. Better, saner and more thorough propositions are in vogue now. Younger theologians and students of theology pretty much see the liberal thing as a total failure and moribund. They're not fans of modernism in general.
How do they "fly in the face of Darwin"? A Darwinian model of evolution perfectly accomodates homosexuality, both in relationship to mankind and with regards to the rest of the animal kingdom.I really doubt that Christians will en masse accept same-gender relationships as the work of the Church. It would be too ironic and bizarre. Such relationships fly in the face of Darwin, but they strangely make more sense in a religious world-view, but that doesn't make them kosher either.
True.....and just maybe that would also be the truth.
..and just maybe that would also be the truth.
By and large, fundamentalism is an American phenomenon. Other parts of the world are considerably saner in this regard. Yet even in the USA, the religious hardliners are losing ground as we speak, and discrimination is on the way out.
How do they "fly in the face of Darwin"? A Darwinian model of evolution perfectly accomodates homosexuality, both in relationship to mankind and with regards to the rest of the animal kingdom.
Fifty years from now, Christians will look back at the issue and point to all the liberal theologians who have been supportive of same-sex relationships all along, and they'll say that their exegesis of the Scriptures has always been the most reflective of the true New Testament spirit.
Then they'll claim that Christianity was the force that brought the change about - another glorious victory!
That's how it has always worked, in relation to just about any social issue.
True!By and large, fundamentalism is an American phenomenon. Other
parts of the world are considerably saner in this regard.
Well...Yet even in the USA, the religious hardliners are losing ground as we speak,
and discrimination is on the way out.
A common impression I get from many Christians concerning Paganism is that us pagans are a sex cult that loves to murder babies. Overall it is fear and confusion as it seems that so many Christians cannot handle the fact that Pagans exist and do not engage in Satanic activities, primarily because Pagans do not believe in Satan.
What are the perceptions you have on the Neo-Paganism movement?
Yes, I think that same-gender unions or marriages are gaining ground and that homosexuality will become broadly accepted. What makes the matter inevitable is the attitude of the younger generations.
I have already argued against anti-gay activism in the Catholic forum and I thought it was a good move for Pope Francis to curb that activity by US Bishops.
My Church faces a serious problem on homosexuality because it cannot change its teaching about it due to infallibility. But I predict that the Catholic Church will take a more conciliatory approach and ultimately sublimate its teaching about homosexuality.
It will have to do something like this, ultimately. The "battle," if one thinks of it that way, is over, and the Church has lost. I tried to make this case to Catholics after the Nov 2012 elections and even before.
The Church is simply facing in the opposite direction of the tide of history on this one and the key idea must be: damage control!
I am not scared of Pagans, nor do I believe you are "a sex cult that loves to murder babies".
To the best of my knowledge, pagans do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God in the flesh, who came down to earth and died for humanity on the cross. Pagans also do not believe that salvation from hell is obtained by believing in Jesus (everything that He said and did) and accepting what He did for us.
So I see Pagans as my fellow human beings who are no worse or better than me, but their souls are in danger unless they come to know Christ. In that way, Pagans are no different from Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or others who follow belief systems that do not accept what the Bible says about Jesus.
I hope that Pagans come to salvation.
However, I have absolutely no fear or hatred of you whatsoever.
By and large, fundamentalism is an American phenomenon. Other parts of the world are considerably saner in this regard. Yet even in the USA, the religious hardliners are losing ground as we speak, and discrimination is on the way out.
How do they "fly in the face of Darwin"? A Darwinian model of evolution perfectly accomodates homosexuality, both in relationship to mankind and with regards to the rest of the animal kingdom.
Oh I know the claim....I've just never heard a convincing argument that homosexuality is beneficial to evolution etc. Heard 'em all. I'm allowed to disagree, right?
You may disagree - but claiming that evolutionary biology is incompatible with homosexuality and presenting that utterly unfounded (and, frankly, completely spurious) claim as fact is a different matter altogether.
Even if you were a professional, peer-reviewed biologist renowned for his expertise in that field, you'd have to do better than that in order to be taken seriously.
Christians have been MORE than active on the rise of police states and food supply - I could list several websites, organizations and ministries (one of them being "Sustainable Traditions" or "Sojourners" and many others) that all deal with the ways democracy/the opportunities to make real positive options for others have changed drastically.....I absolutely agree but I talk about the rise of the police state on hacker forums more than here, different subjects for different audiences. Besides, where are Christians on the rise of the police state or the food supply? That's not something limited to Christians or Christianity.
Gay marriage appears to be the big moral issue of Christianity right now; I think I made a fair estimation of what will happen
.
I am not scared of Pagans, nor do I believe you are "a sex cult that loves to murder babies".
To the best of my knowledge, pagans do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God in the flesh, who came down to earth and died for humanity on the cross. Pagans also do not believe that salvation from hell is obtained by believing in Jesus (everything that He said and did) and accepting what He did for us.
So I see Pagans as my fellow human beings who are no worse or better than me, but their souls are in danger unless they come to know Christ. In that way, Pagans are no different from Muslims or Jews or Buddhists or others who follow belief systems that do not accept what the Bible says about Jesus.
I hope that Pagans come to salvation.
However, I have absolutely no fear or hatred of you whatsoever.
Gxg (G²);65622759 said:Christians have been MORE than active on the rise of police states and food supply - I could list several websites, organizations and ministries (one of them being "Sustainable Traditions" or "Sojourners" and many others) that all deal with the ways democracy/the opportunities to make real positive options for others have changed drastically.....
And with the food supply/police state issues, of course those things aren't limited to Christians - but on the same token, neither is LGBTQ issues and same-sex marriage. Muslims have had issue with it (even in regards to the death penalty) as well as other groups - and this really isn't something that's a new development for Christians. It has already occurred before and did before..
Gxg (G²);65622759 said:In example, the unambiguous position of the Fathers--in this case St. John Chrysostom--was opposing homosexual relations. Comenting on Rom. 1, St. John Chrysostom argued that homosexuality is an attack from Satan, since it divides normal relations between men and woman. That said, there was no evidence that the Fathers sought to butress Christian teaching on sexuality with changes in public policy. The Roman Empire was highly tolerant of homosexuality and Many of the emperors in Rome come immediately to mind for their lifestyles
Sophocles , one of the three great Greek tragic poets who transformed the world of plays, comes to mind - and Alexander the Great is another - who, as epic as he was, had some serious issues with same-sex relationships.
Same with the Spartan Empire in Greece...and other Roman Emperors who were homosexual (Hadrian and Nero coming immediately to mind if my memory serves correct). You can't get past studying Roman Empire easily without realizing how much they celebrate same-sex relationships - and how that aided in their moral/social destruction. Homosexuality was just as widespread among the Romans as it was among the Greeks (a sign of which is that it was condoned even by the stolid Stoics) - and the Romans had adopted the pederasty of the Greeks (aimed, generally, at boys between the ages of 12 to 18). Sadly, there was nothing shameful about such sexual relations among Romans, if the boy was not freeborn. Slaves, both male and female, were considered property, and that included sexual property...but this later applied to adults. And so we hear from Tacitus (56-117 AD), the great Roman historian, of the shameful sexual exploits of a string of Roman emperors from Tiberius to Nero.
In studying the Fathers, I've really not seen where they sought at all to support what the scriptures/tradition taught on Christian sexuality by ensuring that ALL OTHERS who are unsaved become as they approve via political power. Considering the times many of them lived in and how Rome itself was full of all kinds of mess, it seemed they were always more focused on what occurs within the Church rather than outside of it. and the Fathers seemed content to seek change within the Church, not via public policy.
Gxg (G²);65622759 said:One of the Fathers who has been coming to mind a lot for me is Tertullian - for he had a very strong example when it came to the level of involvement believers were to have and how to go about it - being active in the world's systems/governments and yet knowing that this world is NOT our ultimate home nor is it to be the ultimate focus. Tertullian was an apologist who was of the opinion that Roman politics and popular life was completely/utterly sinful and the enemy of the Church...thus leading to Tertullian choosing to approach popular culture and politics in a manner that focused on the Church resisting popular culture and the wider society at every turn (the extreme example of this being Amish communities today) - and yet he still advocated prayer/intercession be done for the leaders of his time...as seen when he discussed Christian loyalty to the Emperor, whoever he may be
And of course, Tertullian's opinion must be taken in context since he lived and wrote during a time of heavy persecution. The following section from Tertullians Apology has been illuminating some of my thinking about Christian social engagement lately:So we sojourn with you in the world, abjuring neither forum, nor shambles, nor bath, nor booth, nor workshop, nor inn, nor weekly market, nor any other places of commerce. We sail with you, and fight with you, and till the ground with you; and in like manner we unite with you in your traffickingseven in the various arts we make public property of our works for your benefit.What Tertullian wrote in the Apology is worth investigating when seeing concepts that help others to think about the prospects for how devotion to the Kingdom of God/loyalty to Christ defense of the Christian faith and life in the contemporary world. And of course, there are many who have had differences of thought on the matter:
That said, you'll always have Christians standing against saying homosexuality or same-sex relationships are wrong - even though they will be respectful in saying it is the right of others to practice such and still be treated with dignity rather than demeaned.....and if others assume that disagreeing with the lifestyle means one is saying that they hate someone, then those Christians will pay the consequences. Of course, others will end up with
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