Why does Paganism scare Christians?

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ContraMundum

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Well that makes sense. I mean, I'd have a hard time identifying as a Christian if I thought that my religion was committing a lot of evil acts. Not that it reflects Christians nowadays but I don't accept the idea that Christianity has always been peaceful. Taking a look at five minutes of American politics indicates to me that Christianity is just as popular of a Casus Belli as anything else.

Even in more peaceful terms I have a high level of suspicion of Christian politics especially in the States. As the prime directive of Christianity is to convert people and eliminate opposing thought, decisions made under the cover of 'religious freedom' are suspect due to their typically Christian-centric nature. It's sort of like the whole Satanist statue thing (would link thread if it wasn't deleted).

I'm glad you're qualifying your previous statement. Because "Christianity did spend most of its existence eliminating people who didn't agree with it" is just too far. Also, it's out of touch with Christian theological tradition, which has always had thinkers and self-examination and wasn't just a bunch of hypocritical Christian fundies pontificating with weapons in hand. Just like everything else in life, things are discussed, developed, discarded, adopted and so forth.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Technically speaking the US has more separation of church and state than does Europe. In Europe churches can be state supported and public schools give classes on religion taught by pastors. That doesn't happen here. It would be a mistake to equate religious values informing political decisions on the basis of the Republican Party. Catholics and Jews tend to support Democrats and there too their political beliefs are informed by their religion. Former President Carter's Habitat for Humanity sells houses with interest-free mortgages. The reason? According to Carter because the Bible says you don't charge interest to poor people. TG's politics are intimately tied to his religious beliefs and God bless him for it, though I sometimes feel he is a better man than his theology.

And this is where I'd say that plain humanity/common human decency comes into play. Sure, our values are informed by our socialization, and religions tend to play a part in that (although it's not necessarily a large part, even in nominally religious families), but at the end of the day, people can be either model citizens or perfectly rotten - regardless of their religious affiliations or their lack of the same.
If you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.

Or, as Einstein put it: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
 
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steve_bakr

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And this is where I'd say that plain humanity/common human decency comes into play. Sure, our values are informed by our socialization, and religions tend to play a part in that (although it's not necessarily a large part, even in nominally religious families), but at the end of the day, people can be either model citizens or perfectly rotten - regardless of their religious affiliations or their lack of the same.
If you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.

Or, as Einstein put it: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

I would argue that religion has value in society. Because someone may be a humanist doesn't give them grounds for arguing that religion can't or shouldn't play a role in, or contribute to, the well-being of society.

I agree, however, that exclusivism is a problem, and that we need to be motivated by other than the hope for rewards and the fear of punishment.
 
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I'm glad you're qualifying your previous statement. Because "Christianity did spend most of its existence eliminating people who didn't agree with it" is just too far. Also, it's out of touch with Christian theological tradition, which has always had thinkers and self-examination and wasn't just a bunch of hypocritical Christian fundies pontificating with weapons in hand. Just like everything else in life, things are discussed, developed, discarded, adopted and so forth.

Of course there a strong self-examination tradition within Christianity for which I have a lot of respect; several centuries of philosophical musing is nothing to shake a stick at. That said, I think there is an alarming trend of anti-intellectualism in Christianity especially in the United States. To me its a scary thought because these people hold a lot of political power in the United States and their intention is clear: Christianity is the law of the land and everyone else can just deal with it.

What's also nice is that many Christians are coming out against this idea too, especially people my age and they're going to be the next generation of Christians. I can't comment on Christianity in the global south but as very aggressive evangelical branches grow rapidly, we might see some alarming trends.
 
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smaneck

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Or, as Einstein put it: "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Reducing religion to fear of punishment and hope of reward is rather shallow. Religion embraces education, social ties and sympathy.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If one looks at how conversions occurred in certain places in Europe, they will find a pattern. A king/ruler converts to X religion and so must everyone else by default. Often, a bunch of converting back and forth between Christianity and Paganism occurred depending on who was in charge and who won which conflict. Most of it amounted to warring between various leaders. It didn't seem to matter what the religion was. Also, if you look at events like the Crusades, the goal wasn't about spreading Christianity. However, most of Christendom over time was not like this, and when people converted they got rid of pagan things of their own will. It was certainly not all coercion. To paint a peaceful pagan utopia mythos is just as much of a historical revisionist fantasy as those who try to say there weren't Christians out there who used violence to coerce others into believing.
Excellent points, as it often seems people assume all things "Pagan" were automatically peaceful and all things Christian (which others in pagan culture turned to) were done via violence.

There were a lot of people who turned sides due to the amount of violence that occurred prior to Christianity arriving - and others who accepted Christ for the wrong reasons.

We can see some basics in regards to issues such as conversions. For example, what comes to my mind is the Arians and what occurred during the Development of the Nicene Creed. The ways that the Arians saw it is indeed intriguing when seeing how they were able to confess the Creed and yet went into a different direction with application of the concept. To see what occurred in Germanic Christianity and how many of them, notably the Goths and Vandals, adopted Arianism instead of other forms (and often came to wage war with Rome) is fascinating...



In regards to forced conversions (which did occur on all sides), Arianism found something of a second home in the western part of the Roman Empire in its twilight days due in part to how Christianity seems to have been less sophisticated and the notion of orthodoxy wasn't strictly enforced on certain matters....even though small pockets of Arianism remained in the east and over time blended into Monophysitism, which the Byzantine Emperors eventually managed to stamp out in their realm officially. In the fouth century the Barbarians who lived at Rome’s margins (later plundering it in order to establish new kingdoms of their own ) were largely converted to Arian Christianity rather than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity - AND language seems to have been a big factor...as it was with many developments in the Church in Eastern Christianity when seeing the differing trajectories.

I'm reminded of the efforts of missionaries such as Ulfilas (who also famously translated parts of the Bible into the Gothic language), as well as the Germanic tribes’ acquisition of Roman captives, most of whom happened to come from primarily-Arian parts of the Empire.
For an excellent review on the issue, one can go to Barbarians in the Meditteranean [/url] or The Church Faces the Empire and the Barbarians - Early ... as well as Barbarians and Politics at the Court of Arcadius - Alan Cameron, Jacqueline Long, Lee Sherry - Google Books. And the best read, by far, that one can consider on the issue (which has been discussed elsewhere before in http://www.christianforums.com/t7706791-3/#post61944990) would be The Barbarian Conversion: From Paganism to Christianity






The point is that in many respects, when it came to others using violence in the Christian world, there was the dynamic of people often reacting based on reactions - and POLITICAL dynamics that occurred in the midst of things to influence others to a certain end. But that in/of itself didn't mean that Christianity was inherently violent - nor would it change the fact that many, in the name of Christianity, ended up resorting to violence due to the political realities ...even as those they sought to convert got caught in the cross-fire and came to assume Christianity was all centered on forcing others to change via violence. It means people often got things messed up.


And on the issue, it seems there can be no escaping the reality of how often believers did act quite pagan (unfortunately) when trying to establish what was or wasn't true about who Christ was......with regards to violence when considering the history of the Church - specifically on the ways that violence (As much as it's noted to be something not done to other non-believers on the outside) was something that was used/advocated toward believers. For reference, I am reminded of the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins, which is indeed an amazing one - very AMAZING read on a host of levels in light of how Philip Jenkins is able to communicate complex ideas and complicated concepts in a manner that preserves their integrity to a wide audience and at the same time renders them as a fascinating... And I was so thankful for the ways he detailed the ways that militancy was done by the Church at various points. For a brief excerpt:



May those who divide Christ be divided with the sword, may they be hewn in pieces, may they be burned alive! – Second Council of Ephesus, 449

In 449, the leading Fathers of the Christian church met in Ephesus, in Asia Minor, to debate pressing theological issues. At a critical moment, a band of monks and soldiers took control of the meeting hall, forcing bishops to sign a blank paper on which the winning side later filled in its own favored statement. The document targeted the patriarch of Constantinople, Flavian, one of the three or four greatest clerics in the Christian world. Yelling “Slaughter him!” a mob of monks attacked Flavian, beating him so badly that he died a few days later. So outrageous was the intimidation that the ultimate winners in the conflict invalidated this whole council. They repudi[bless and do not curse]ated it as a Latrocinium—which loosely means, a Gangster Synod.

From later history, we know of many episodes when Christians would resort to violence, especially against members of other faiths, but in this instance, the different sides agreed on so much. Both factions accepted the same Scriptures and the same view of the church and the hierarchy, and both agreed that Jesus Christ was God incar[bless and do not curse]nate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Where they disagreed so violently was over the nature of Christ. Flavian’s enemies, and their monkish militia, believed that Christ existed in a single nature in which the divine dominated. They felt that by failing to proclaim this truth, by advocating a Christ in Two Natures, Flavian’s party had betrayed the core of Christianity. Literally, they thought, Flavian had divided Christ.

From a modern point of view, we are baffled to see such extraordinary violence unleashed over what might appear to be a trivial philosophical row. Surely, we might think, these debates involved over-fine distinctions quite as trivial as the proverbial disputes over the number of angels who could sit on the head of a pin. Just what could have caused such bitter hatred? In fact, the conflict involves a paradox that is quite central to the Christian faith. Christians must believe that God is wholly human and wholly divine, but it is easy for a believer to stray too far in one direction or the other. Either we might think of Christ purely as God, in which case he is no longer human, has no share in our human experience, and becomes a di[bless and do not curse]vinity in the sky like Zeus or Thor; or else, in contrast, we focus so much on his humanity that we underplay the divine element and deny the Incarnation. We would preach a Christ of two natures and two minds, literally a schizophrenic being. According to his ene[bless and do not curse]mies—unfairly and inaccurately—that was Flavian’s sin, and brutal violence was the only appropriate response to his gross insult to the Son of God.

The violence was unforgivable, and so were all the acts of persecution and forced conformity. But in one sense, ancient Christians were exactly right to be so passionate about their causes, if not the means by which they pursued them. Far from being philosophical niceties, the central themes in the religious debates really were criti[bless and do not curse]cal to the definition of Christianity, and to the ways in which the faith would develop over the coming centuries. The Christ controversies did, and do, have immense consequences, for culture and politics as much as for religion.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Reducing religion to fear of punishment and hope of reward is rather shallow. Religion embraces education, social ties and sympathy.
But - in the case of the most prevalent monotheisms - it always boils down to an authoritarian line of argument. Put simply, doing things that harm others isn't conceived of as wrong because of said harm, but because the Divine Being supposedly said so. Even worse, the list of prohibitions usually includes aspects that have got nothing to do with harming others (same-sex relationships, dietary taboos, etc.), and cannot be properly defended on rational grounds.
And - probably the worst - even atrocities can be justified and rationalized by claiming that it's the Deity's will.
Empathy and sympathy can stand on their own; at best, theistic beliefs may encourage them - but they are not a requirement.

I know plenty of theists who believe that NOT believing in God is synonymous with being immoral - and that strikes me as quite problematic, as far as attitudes are concerned.
 
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smaneck

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But - in the case of the most prevalent monotheisms - it always boils down to an authoritarian line of argument. Put simply, doing things that harm others isn't conceived of as wrong because of said harm, but because the Divine Being supposedly said so.

Yes, all revealed religions are based on the authority of revelation. But you are wrong to say that something isn't wrong because it causes harm. What revelation does is define what constitutes 'harm.'

Even worse, the list of prohibitions usually includes aspects that have got nothing to do with harming others (same-sex relationships, dietary taboos, etc.), and cannot be properly defended on rational grounds.

Actually most of the prohibitions (though admittedly not all) are there because they doing them does cause harm.

And - probably the worst - even atrocities can be justified and rationalized by claiming that it's the Deity's will.

And yet the atheistic ideologies which have come to govern have oftentimes caused even greater atrocities.

Empathy and sympathy can stand on their own; at best, theistic beliefs may encourage them - but they are not a requirement.

Do they? I see a lot of atheistic philosophies such as Ayn Rand that make a virtue out of selfishness.

I know plenty of theists who believe that NOT believing in God is synonymous with being immoral - and that strikes me as quite problematic, as far as attitudes are concerned.

I'll grant you that being a theist and being moral are not the same thing, nor is atheism necessarily immoral. But I think oftentimes that even when atheists has eschewed religion, they often draw on the reservoir of moral principles which religion established.
 
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Of course there a strong self-examination tradition within Christianity for which I have a lot of respect; several centuries of philosophical musing is nothing to shake a stick at. That said, I think there is an alarming trend of anti-intellectualism in Christianity especially in the United States. To me its a scary thought because these people hold a lot of political power in the United States and their intention is clear: Christianity is the law of the land and everyone else can just deal with it.

What's also nice is that many Christians are coming out against this idea too, especially people my age and they're going to be the next generation of Christians. I can't comment on Christianity in the global south but as very aggressive evangelical branches grow rapidly, we might see some alarming trends.

I couldn't agree more.
 
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Gxg (G²);65583803 said:
Excellent points, as it often seems people assume all things "Pagan" were automatically peaceful and all things Christian (which others in pagan culture turned to) were done via violence.

There were a lot of people who turned sides due to the amount of violence that occurred prior to Christianity arriving - and others who accepted Christ for the wrong reasons.

We can see some basics in regards to issues such as conversions. For example, what comes to my mind is the Arians and what occurred during the Development of the Nicene Creed. The ways that the Arians saw it is indeed intriguing when seeing how they were able to confess the Creed and yet went into a different direction with application of the concept. To see what occurred in Germanic Christianity and how many of them, notably the Goths and Vandals, adopted Arianism instead of other forms (and often came to wage war with Rome) is fascinating...



In regards to forced conversions (which did occur on all sides), Arianism found something of a second home in the western part of the Roman Empire in its twilight days due in part to how Christianity seems to have been less sophisticated and the notion of orthodoxy wasn't strictly enforced on certain matters....even though small pockets of Arianism remained in the east and over time blended into Monophysitism, which the Byzantine Emperors eventually managed to stamp out in their realm officially. In the fouth century the Barbarians who lived at Rome’s margins (later plundering it in order to establish new kingdoms of their own ) were largely converted to Arian Christianity rather than Orthodox or Catholic Christianity - AND language seems to have been a big factor...as it was with many developments in the Church in Eastern Christianity when seeing the differing trajectories.

I'm reminded of the efforts of missionaries such as Ulfilas (who also famously translated parts of the Bible into the Gothic language), as well as the Germanic tribes’ acquisition of Roman captives, most of whom happened to come from primarily-Arian parts of the Empire.
For an excellent review on the issue, one can go to Barbarians in the Meditteranean [/url] or The Church Faces the Empire and the Barbarians - Early ... as well as Barbarians and Politics at the Court of Arcadius - Alan Cameron, Jacqueline Long, Lee Sherry - Google Books. And the best read, by far, that one can consider on the issue would be The Barbarian Conversion: From Paganism to Christianity






The point is that in many respects, when it came to others using violence in the Christian world, there was the dynamic of people often reacting based on reactions - and POLITICAL dynamics that occurred in the midst of things to influence others to a certain end. But that in/of itself didn't mean that Christianity was inherently violent - nor would it change the fact that many, in the name of Christianity, ended up resorting to violence due to the political realities ...even as those they sought to convert got caught in the cross-fire and came to assume Christianity was all centered on forcing others to change via violence. It means people often got things messed up.


And on the issue, it seems there can be no escaping the reality of how often believers did act quite pagan (unfortunately) when trying to establish what was or wasn't true about who Christ was......with regards to violence when considering the history of the Church - specifically on the ways that violence (As much as it's noted to be something not done to other non-believers on the outside) was something that was used/advocated toward believers. For reference, I am reminded of the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins, which is indeed an amazing one - very AMAZING read on a host of levels in light of how Philip Jenkins is able to communicate complex ideas and complicated concepts in a manner that preserves their integrity to a wide audience and at the same time renders them as a fascinating... And I was so thankful for the ways he detailed the ways that militancy was done by the Church at various points. For a brief excerpt:



May those who divide Christ be divided with the sword, may they be hewn in pieces, may they be burned alive! – Second Council of Ephesus, 449

In 449, the leading Fathers of the Christian church met in Ephesus, in Asia Minor, to debate pressing theological issues. At a critical moment, a band of monks and soldiers took control of the meeting hall, forcing bishops to sign a blank paper on which the winning side later filled in its own favored statement. The document targeted the patriarch of Constantinople, Flavian, one of the three or four greatest clerics in the Christian world. Yelling “Slaughter him!” a mob of monks attacked Flavian, beating him so badly that he died a few days later. So outrageous was the intimidation that the ultimate winners in the conflict invalidated this whole council. They repudi[bless and do not curse]ated it as a Latrocinium—which loosely means, a Gangster Synod.

From later history, we know of many episodes when Christians would resort to violence, especially against members of other faiths, but in this instance, the different sides agreed on so much. Both factions accepted the same Scriptures and the same view of the church and the hierarchy, and both agreed that Jesus Christ was God incar[bless and do not curse]nate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Where they disagreed so violently was over the nature of Christ. Flavian’s enemies, and their monkish militia, believed that Christ existed in a single nature in which the divine dominated. They felt that by failing to proclaim this truth, by advocating a Christ in Two Natures, Flavian’s party had betrayed the core of Christianity. Literally, they thought, Flavian had divided Christ.

From a modern point of view, we are baffled to see such extraordinary violence unleashed over what might appear to be a trivial philosophical row. Surely, we might think, these debates involved over-fine distinctions quite as trivial as the proverbial disputes over the number of angels who could sit on the head of a pin. Just what could have caused such bitter hatred? In fact, the conflict involves a paradox that is quite central to the Christian faith. Christians must believe that God is wholly human and wholly divine, but it is easy for a believer to stray too far in one direction or the other. Either we might think of Christ purely as God, in which case he is no longer human, has no share in our human experience, and becomes a di[bless and do not curse]vinity in the sky like Zeus or Thor; or else, in contrast, we focus so much on his humanity that we underplay the divine element and deny the Incarnation. We would preach a Christ of two natures and two minds, literally a schizophrenic being. According to his ene[bless and do not curse]mies—unfairly and inaccurately—that was Flavian’s sin, and brutal violence was the only appropriate response to his gross insult to the Son of God.

The violence was unforgivable, and so were all the acts of persecution and forced conformity. But in one sense, ancient Christians were exactly right to be so passionate about their causes, if not the means by which they pursued them. Far from being philosophical niceties, the central themes in the religious debates really were criti[bless and do not curse]cal to the definition of Christianity, and to the ways in which the faith would develop over the coming centuries. The Christ controversies did, and do, have immense consequences, for culture and politics as much as for religion.

Good work! :thumbsup:
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Yes, all revealed religions are based on the authority of revelation. But you are wrong to say that something isn't wrong because it causes harm. What revelation does is define what constitutes 'harm.'
Except that, for the most part, it does not.
"God said it. That settles it. Case closed."
Any line of reasoning that'd put the evaluation of harm at the centre of moral considerations is not theistic in nature, because it's not about a deity or a deity's commandments, but just about an analysis of interpersonal relationships - or about even more fundamental social emotions.

Actually most of the prohibitions (though admittedly not all) are there because they doing them does cause harm.
But the pertinent question here is: what came first? The realization that certain actions cause harm - or attributing them to a deity? Judging by the social behaviour of other species such as wolves, apes, or elephants, I'd say that these moral impulses precede the advent of religion by at LEAST one evolutionary step towards the development of sapience and culture.

And yet the atheistic ideologies which have come to govern have oftentimes caused even greater atrocities.
I'm surprised to see a highly educated person like yourself repeat this rather polemic and somewhat ill-founded argument.
First and foremost, the problem with the -isms of the twentieth century was not that they were (in some cases only supposedly) atheistic, but that they were TOO MUCH LIKE a religion. Communism (and its mirrored twin, Randian Objectivism) have their own eschatology, a sense of mission, a clear compartmentalization of the world into the "good" in-group and the "evil" outsiders, and - last but not least - an unquestioning belief in the authority of the "Revelation".
Secondly, I'd say technological progress accounts for the huge number of casualties much more than the nature of the ideologies involved in the various conflicts. Counting deaths and declaring the party with the smaller body count the morally superior winner does not even make sense when both situations involved the same technology and the same population size. But given that we are comparing people with spears to people with poison gas (and at a time when the global population was significantly larger), it is even more nonsensical.
Last but not least, the often-cited worst offender in this regard (namely the Nazis and the holocaust) weren't even predominantly atheists, and their ideology was building on a millennia-old tradition of anti-semitism that had been perpetuated by Christianity since late antiquity.

Do they? I see a lot of atheistic philosophies such as Ayn Rand that make a virtue out of selfishness.
"Objectivism" is very much an atheistic religion, including its own eschatology, the repulsion of "heretics", lists of prohibited books, a scriptural canon, etc.

And of course, you kind of missed the point here. Objectivism is not "empathy and sympathy on their own", it's the diametrical opposite - the same mechanism that I also described in relation to theistic religions.

I'll grant you that being a theist and being moral are not the same thing, nor is atheism necessarily immoral. But I think oftentimes that even when atheists has eschewed religion, they often draw on the reservoir of moral principles which religion established.
The thing is, though: "religion" did not establish anything of the sort. I mentioned the other social mammals before: our ability to relate to others and to act morally based on these emotions and thoughts precedes the advent of culture (and thus, by extension, religion), as does a group's outrage at seeing an individual do wrong, or an individual's guilt at acting in an anti-social manner.

Social instincts are not fool-proof, of course, neither collectively nor individually. The lynch mob, the de-humanization of the out-group, pecking orders - even despots: all side effects of certain behavioural patterns that have been deeply ingrained into our collective psyche, only to be overcome by reflection, reasoning, discussion, learning.
Culture (theistic or not) *can* aid in that process, in theory.

Historically speaking, however, it was more often a hindrance rather than a help. Christianity systematically resisted and blocked any kind of social progress throughout history - yet retroactively claimed that it had been the driving force behind the change afterwards, pointing at a few mavericks who had re-interpreted their stance in a highly unorthodox manner.

The advantage I see in a non-authoritarian culture is that it is significantly more open to debate, to well-reasoned lines of argument, to a questioning of tradition and established practices - in short: to change. Once you point to a text and claim that this is the Supreme Being's indisputable Will, that option flies straight out of the window.
 
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smaneck

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First and foremost, the problem with the -isms of the twentieth century was not that they were (in some cases only supposedly) atheistic, but that they were TOO MUCH LIKE a religion.

The thing is that these are precisely the types of ideologies which arise to replace religion. Where communism has died virulent nationalisms have once again raised their ugly heads. Communism never had the same 'religious force' has nationalism has been able to exercise.

My point is that an atheistic world-view does not necessarily contribute to either empathy or sympathy. The Golden Rule, in whatever form, grew out of religion. I don't see the non-authoritarian culture you promote as growing out atheism. But it can grow out of a consultative and dialectical relationship with revelation.
 
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Do you believe people enter politics and shelve their own personal convictions? I don't. For that reason we can't stretch the definition of secular to include "non-religious", as people will always bring their faith into their decision making.

IOW- I don't think pure secular gov't is possible, even when it was tried in the 20thC by Stalinist nations etc- because a political platform can take the form of religion.
I can keep my religious beliefs out of my politics...why can't you?

It's simple - you answer to a higher authority than the US government, and the rest of Americans don't necessarily answer to that authority..
 
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I can keep my religious beliefs out of my politics...why can't you?

It's simple - you answer to a higher authority than the US government, and the rest of Americans don't necessarily answer to that authority..

To borrow the expression; politicians put their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution, not the other way around.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The thing is that these are precisely the types of ideologies which arise to replace religion. Where communism has died virulent nationalisms have once again raised their ugly heads. Communism never had the same 'religious force' has nationalism has been able to exercise.
True. Yet nationalism and religion have always got along all too well. The Catholic Church's role in Franco's Spain or the diverse juntas and dictatorships of South America is well-documented, and it doesn't exactly shine a flattering light on religion. Nor is this a phenomenon of the past: The ultra-nationalistic Hungarians affirm their Christian identity, the Polish could not possibly be more Catholic, Vladimir Putin gets on SPECTACULARLY well with the Russian Orthodox Church, etc.

My point is that an atheistic world-view does not necessarily contribute to either empathy or sympathy.
True. They can be just as authoritarian and exclusivistic as theistic world views.

The Golden Rule, in whatever form, grew out of religion.[/QUOTE]
You keep affirming that, even though it is demonstrably untrue. Even rhesus monkeys understand reciprocity and fairness.
Non-human animals may not be able to verbalize the principle, yet it is present in almost every species that lives in social groups.

I don't see the non-authoritarian culture you promote as growing out atheism. But it can grow out of a consultative and dialectical relationship with revelation.
As long as there's a body of text or tradition that's conceived of as unassailable truth that must not be debated, no such dialectical relationship can truly manifest.
This holds true for non-theistic world views as much as for theistic ones. The difference being, of course, that theistic world views claim an even greater degree of authority by attributing their beliefs and traditions to an unassailable source. In some cases, atheistic world views do the same (Rand famously claimed that anybody who disagreed with her was either illogical, stupid, or evil, while Communists read Marx's theories WRT history as a kind of insurmountable natural law.)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I don't think Christians FEAR pagans so much as hate them.
Personally, I can't see where there'd be any basis for claiming at any point that Christians hate Pagans universally - or that such a mindset ever occurred consistently since to say that would be akin to saying "Christians hate the people who made the internet" or "Christians hated people who invented the airplane and people in the Renaissance era" (both of which wouldn't be true since it took Christians valuing pagan thought for things to develop in many places.

For starters, one can start with seeing Christianity in Antiquity. Many often assume Christians were hateful of pagans due to how much paganism seemed to disappear by the time it arrived on the scene - but things are far more complex than that.

For other examples of where CHristians didn't hate pagans, we can again consider the Renaissance...some immediate examples being Desiderius Erasmus. Although he he never formally "joined" the Reformation, he was in sympathy with much of it (more here and here ).

Prior to what occurred with Erasmus, during the time of the Roman Empire when the division between East and West became more prominent, people in the Western Empire at certain parts preserved things such as Plato and Aristotle...and in many monastaries in the West, those things were simply forbidden to be studied due to the focus/outlook people had on the nature of man before the rise of the Renaissance when those works were rediscovered.

The Renaissance era stands out on several levels when it comes to seeing development of artistic thought..and differing constraints broken from previous eras while new ones were shaped in their place as the standards (as the bar was raised high). What led to others accepting Aristotle and other scholars was Christian Humanism precedding it..some feeling that it may have begun as early as the 2nd century, with the writings of St. Justin Martyr, an early theologian-apologist of the early Christian Church who suggested a value in the achievements of Classical culture in his Apology (here ) --and later, influential letters by Basil of Caesarea and Gregory of Nyssa confirmed the commitment to using pre-Christian knowledge, particularly as it touched the material world. Other periods experienced times of educational emphasis as illustrated by the Carolingian and Ottonian Empires.

These early emphases, however, rested squarely on ecclesiastical authority and support. New views and discoveries were often stifled when in conflict with official dogma. The church officially interpreted Scripture and declared its Latin texts infallible. They allowed no alternate interpretations.

And by the time the Renaissance began, people were beginning to see the concept of how all men were made in the image of God..being worthy of respect/dignity and capable of making good decisions. There was greater focus on the asethics and indivdual thought, focusing on the earth rather than Heaven alone.

Some Renaissance humanists held church offices and almost all faithfully supported the church, but their support was not an uncritical gullible acceptance since Humanists attacked many abuses but remained devout....but they were deeply connected to what could be termed "pagan" culture in various ways - and society was better because of it (more shared here )....SEEING how far the Renaissance furthered humankind, I do wonder how others could assume Christians "hated" pagans.


And outside of that era, one can also consider others from the 20th century.... people such as C.S Lewis, for example. He was well known for using Greek and Roman mythology in his writings at many points - as shared before:

Gxg (G²);64512423 said:
For others in the time of Lewis warned him on the dangers of bringing in so much of Greek/Roman and Indian mythology - with their discomfort being how it opens the door for others to not be pointed to CHrist. Many note that they have serious issue with people continually digesting Chronicles of Narnia due to many of the concepts within it that are found in pagan cultures (i.e. Centaurs, Minotaurs, Satyr and other creatures). The series borrows characters and ideas from Greek, Turkish and Roman mythology, as well as from traditional British and Irish fairy tales.. and granted, many understand that those creatures are used to teach on Biblical principles.

And as C.S Lewis himself noted in "The Weight of Glory":
The truth is that the resemblances tell nothing either for or against the truth of Christian Theology. If you start from the assumption that the Theology is false, the resemblances are quite consistent with that assumption. One would expect creatures of the same sort, faced with the same universe, to make the same false guess more than once. But if you start with the assumption that the Theology is true, the resemblances fit in equally well. Theology, while saying that a special illumination has been vouchsafed to Christians and (earlier) to Jews, also says that there is some divine illumination vouchsafed to all men . . . We should, therefore, expect to find in the imagination of great Pagan teachers and myth makers some glimpse of that theme which we believe to be the very plot of the whole cosmic story -- the theme of the incarnation, death, and re-birth. And the difference between the Pagan Christs (Balder, Osiris, etc.) and the Christ Himself is much what we should expect to find. The Pagan stories are all about someone dying and rising, either every year, or else nobody knows where and nobody knows when. The Christian story is about a historical personage, whose execution can be dated pretty accurately, under a named Roman magistrate, and with whom the society that He founded is in a continuous relation down to the present day. It is not the difference between falsehood and truth. It is the difference between a real event on the one hand and dim dreams or premonitions of that same event on the other.
-(The Weight of Glory, New York: Macmillan / Collier Books, revised and expanded edition, 1980, edited by Walter Hooper, New York: 83-84, from "Is Theology Poetry)
Paganism can have many road signs pointing to truth (early windows into the glory of Christ previewed) - even though plenty with C.S Lewis have extreme problems with his material, despite his work in apologetics and Christian fellowship - and there've been a string of accusations brought to him.

.....Although Lewis disliked modernism which he regarded as mechanized and sterile, it is interesting to see how he had nearly no reservations about pre-Christian pagan culture - with Christian critics pointing out that Lewis disdained the non-religious agnostic character of modernity, but not the polytheistic character of pagan religion. One can see more in the essay by Lewis entitled God in the Dock: Essays on Theology and Ethics - Page 172 - Google
Much of the angst Lewis (and others like-minded) faced on his stances with paganism has to do with how we see nature & fallen creation. For Certain Protestant groups see total depravity in it & discard the fact that God saw what He created as good. And there are many pagan beleif systems the church saw as ripe for the Gospel. In example, one can see this account of Orhtodoxy among the Aleuts in Alaska:



Again, there are definitely a lot of Protestant groups who see total depravity in all aspects of creation - and thus, they do not have the mindset that good can be found in anything. But this was never the norm. And thee same concept has played out many times in differing contexts. In example, Gary Spokecane was one of the most amazing missionaries of all time - prophetically sharing with others long before white settlers came into certain areas that they had something the people needed and it was sent by the Great Spirit (which many took to be representative of the Lord Almighty as the Natives understood him) - and other good ministers such as Richard Twiss have shared on the concept of the Lord giving previews to other cultures.

More could be said on the issue - but indeed, I don't see where it has been the case that historically it was shown that Christians "hated" paganism. Even going as far back to the era of Constantine (which many often assume of him to be one who utilized aspects of Paganism while promoting Christianity)....
 
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morningstar2651

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I'd like to point out that there is a difference between a secularism and an atheism. A secular government is not one that requires disbelief in god.

Secularism makes no statements about the existence of gods. It's indifferent to their existence or non-existence.

Atheism, on the other hand, makes a clear statement that gods do not exist.

A secular government is unconcerned with religion or worship - these are things that people are free to do and believe without government interference.

It's a pretty fair deal - A Christian American is bound by the secular laws of the nation and chooses to be bound by the religious laws of Christianity. A Jewish American is bound by the secular laws of the nation, but additionally chooses to be bound by the religious laws of Judaism.

It allows us to separate the laws that we are all required to follow from the laws that we choose to follow.

Just because adultery isn't a crime in American law doesn't mean it isn't a sin within the beliefs of Christianity...the choice of a religion involves choosing to follow laws that the government does not enforce.
 
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