Why does life look as if it evolved?

[Merlin]

Just ask yourself this question. Do your electronic circuits fall into a nested hierarchy? I would guess that they don't. You probably mix and match several different features from disparate sources.

Well, I would say they do fall into a 'nested hierarchy' (from your given examples) since I never mix tubes with transistors.

 

[Chalnoth]

Well, I would say they do fall into a 'nested hierarchy' (from your given examples) since I never mix tubes with transistors.

Well, you'd be wrong. With cars, for instance, you don't get car radios only among the group of cars in which they first appeared: car radios appear across brands and across types of cars.

For example, since the separation between cars and pickup trucks existed before car radios, if automobiles obeyed a nested hierarchy, we would expect car radios to appear only in either trucks or cars, not in both. They do appear in both, so you're wrong.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Maybe for an evolutionist, this is true.
However, creationists do mean evolution as change, not necessarily 'inheretable traits over time in a population'

Then you admit that your argument is fallacious: you are equivocating, yes?

 

[Merlin]

Well, you'd be wrong...

No I'm not.
As you quoted me. Did you read what you quoted?
I referred to MY elctronics designs.

Since cars, etc had many designers and bio-systems only one, the lack of nested hierarchy designs is not a valid comparison.

 

[FishFace]

No I'm not.
As you quoted me. Did you read what you quoted?
I referred to MY elctronics designs.

Since cars, etc had many designers and bio-systems only one, the lack of nested hierarchy designs is not a valid comparison.

Don't you remember who it was who started comparing biology with electronics? That's right, you.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well, I would say they do fall into a 'nested hierarchy' (from your given examples) since I never mix tubes with transistors.

Since tubes preceded transistors this wouldn't be a problem. It would be a bit like egg laying mammals or lungfish that have both lungs and gills.

But anyway, I really, really doubt that your designs fall into a nested hierarchy. I would also guess that you do not have a full grasp of what a nested hierarchy is.

But let me put it this way. If you found a good, basic design that has broad applications would you mix it in with other designs? Of course you would. Do you mix and match transistors from different companies? Of course, why wouldn't you. We see it all of the time in personal computers where video cards, sound cards, motherboards, and CPU's are interchangeable and easily violate a nested hierarchy.

 

[Merlin]

Don't you remember who it was who started comparing biology with electronics? That's right, you.

Yes.
I also noticed when the discussion went from one engineer to many.
Did you notice?

 

[Merlin]

Since tubes preceded transistors this wouldn't be a problem. It would be a bit like egg laying mammals or lungfish that have both lungs and gills.

Tubes are still in use by many.

But anyway, I really, really doubt that your designs fall into a nested hierarchy. I would also guess that you do not have a full grasp of what a nested hierarchy is.

That's why I included "from your given examples"

But let me put it this way. If you found a good, basic design that has broad applications would you mix it in with other designs? Of course you would. Do you mix and match transistors from different companies? Of course, why wouldn't you. We see it all of the time in personal computers where video cards, sound cards, motherboards, and CPU's are interchangeable and easily violate a nested hierarchy.

You mean, in the same way God mixed proteins? DNA structures? etc?

 

[Loudmouth]

You mean, in the same way God mixed proteins? DNA structures? etc?

Proteins aren't mixed. They fall into a nested hierarchy.

However, humans have moved proteins around in a way that violates the nested hierarchy. One of the more entertaining examples is the Glofish This is a zebrafish that has an exact copy of a jellyfish gene, GFP. How did it get there? Humans put it there. This illustrates the fact that a non-nested hierarchy is what one would expect if life was designed.

 

[Chalnoth]

No I'm not.
As you quoted me. Did you read what you quoted?
I referred to MY elctronics designs.

Since cars, etc had many designers and bio-systems only one, the lack of nested hierarchy designs is not a valid comparison.

Tell me, if you're working on project X, and find a solution to a problem that is also useful in project Y, do you or do you not, when you go back to work on project Y, make use of that solution?

 

[Merlin]

Tell me, if you're working on project X, and find a solution to a problem that is also useful in project Y, do you or do you not, when you go back to work on project Y, make use of that solution?

Sometimes, no.

 

[Loudmouth]

Sometimes, no.

This would imply that sometimes you do.

Tell you what, give us a summary of 3 to 5 of your designs and show us how they fit into a nested hierarchy.

 

[FishFace]

Yes.
I also noticed when the discussion went from one engineer to many.
Did you notice?

So, tell us, what products do you design? I assume that, since you are considering only one engineer, that you discovered transistors, metallurgy, capacitance etc all by yourself? You don't buy in parts from anywhere else, and when you design a circuit that has broad applications you, for some reason, refuse to use it anywhere else.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

However, humans have moved proteins around in a way that violates the nested hierarchy. One of the more entertaining examples is the Glofish This is a zebrafish that has an exact copy of a jellyfish gene, GFP. How did it get there? Humans put it there. This illustrates the fact that a non-nested hierarchy is what one would expect if life was designed.

Indeed, this is one major thing that facinated me when I started learning about genetics. The fact that whole genes can be moved across taxa (even higher level taxa) would be incredible evidence for ID. And yet such examples don't exist in nature.

 

[Chalnoth]

Sometimes, no.

So, sometimes you do. That means your designs do not fit into a nested hierarchy. This is the case all across human designs: when we find something that works, we reuse it. Life, for the most part, can't do that, and that's why human-made things don't look evolved at all.

 

[Naraoia]

Indeed, this is one major thing that facinated me when I started learning about genetics. The fact that whole genes can be moved across taxa (even higher level taxa) would be incredible evidence for ID. And yet such examples don't exist in nature.

Horizontal gene transfer between Bacteria and Archaea (domains, the highest level meaningful taxa)?

I know I'm extremely anal And anyway, we know HGT is nothing supernatural. Just wanted to point out that your statement isn't entirely true.

 

[Merlin]

This is the case all across human designs: when we find something that works, we reuse it. Life, for the most part, can't do that, and that's why human-made things don't look evolved at all.

Nonsense.
Concepts reused:
eye, stomach, hair, teeth, heart, blood, intestines, bone, and so on.

 

[Vene]

Nonsense.
Concepts reused:
eye, stomach, hair, teeth, heart, blood, intestines, bone, and so on.

But these concepts don't appear independently. taking the hair example, the only creatures that have hair are those that evolved from reptiles. Insects may have hair-like structures, but they are configured differently. If a non-mammalian creature has hair then it would develop independently, but that isn't the case.

 

[Merlin]

But these concepts don't appear independently. taking the hair example, the only creatures that have hair are those that evolved from reptiles. Insects may have hair-like structures, but they are configured differently. If a non-mammalian creature has hair then it would develop independently, but that isn't the case.

So, none have DNA.
None have cells,
None have proteins,
except humans, right?
wouldn't want to reuse concepts across different life forms

 

[Vene]

So, none have DNA.
None have cells,
None have proteins,
except humans, right?
wouldn't want to reuse concepts across different life forms

These are traits that the earliest organisms had. That means that their offspring would have it too. And even if it isn't exactly alive (but they are organic), there are viruses that only have RNA.