Why does it seem that Christians fear inquiry?

[DarkProphet]

I also believe that Christ will not turn away anyone who humbly and honestly is seeking him. I have yet to see anyone deny this.

I have.

I think they shut down the apologetics forum because there was that much more mocking than inquiry, and pretty much all the big topics tend to just be repeated over and over in cycles, and nothing (or very little) new was being discussed.

That is more an issue with Christian sentimentality and their lack of answers then anything else.

As a Christian (and another former atheist) I have no qualms about rational inquiry. I quite enjoy it. In the words of Salida, Bring it on.

Easy to say when public discourse is barred.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I have.

Did you stop? How did you decide you'd searched enough? I'm not being glib, at all

That is more an issue with Christian sentimentality and their lack of answers then anything else.

Easy to say when public discourse is barred.

GA had absolutely nothing to do with open and honest discourse. It had become a metaforum where people seemingly had free rein to mock Christianity and our beliefs with as much vitriol and cruelty as they wished. The treatment of Christians who attempted to go in there with kindness was unacceptable. I saw gentle people turn hard and defensive because of GA.

There are a million places for anti-Christians to congregate online - CF is under no obligation whatsoever to provide a platform or meeting place.

Very few Christians fear inquiry. However no Christian should be faced with an onslaught of abuse when they visit a Christian forum. Just as no atheist should be faced with an onslaught of abuse when they visit a Christian forum. Neither will be tolerated here, period.

Very few of the atheists here are cruel, and very few of the Christians are cruel - and yet there are examples of both and GA was a breeding ground. It created hate and animosity like it was a bacteria. Putting an end to mockery of Christianity and toxic environments isn't remotely the same as prohibiting enquiry or discussion.

I would have liked to see it done differently, but this is what was done, and the logic is unimpeachable. It was an ugly place, and a cruel place, and it was hurting people - both Christian and non. It was misrepresentative of atheism and atheists, having been taken over by people whose primary interest was pouring invective. It reached the point where it had virtually no redeeming quality whatsoever, and its being closed was a difficult decision made by people who were tired of seeing the ugliness.

 

[DarkProphet]

Did you stop? How did you decide you'd searched enough? I'm not being glib, at all

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to a Sunday school, I realized early on that Christianity was impossible (among other things) . But I was referring to my friend, not me. My friend was the son of a crack mom, I grew up with him and it would be easy to say that he made bad choices but really in his environment he didn't have many. He ended up a drug dealer, starting in junior high. He did try to change his life. I even remember him dragging me to a church youth program, they kicked him out for something lame (don't remember what). Later in life he "found" Jesus a few times but always ended up disillusioned and getting back into drugs, crashing harder every time. I lost contact with him a few years back so I dunno how he is doing now.

The point is that he DID try to become a Christian at varies points in his life, even as a kid, but his prayers were never answered.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I was raised in a Catholic family and went to a Sunday school, I realized early on that Christianity was impossible (among other things) . But I was referring to my friend, not me. My friend was the son of a crack mom, I grew up with him and it would be easy to say that he made bad choices but really in his environment he didn't have many. He ended up a drug dealer, starting in junior high. He did try to change his life. I even remember him dragging me to a church youth program, they kicked him out for something lame (don't remember what). Later in life he "found" Jesus a few times but always ended up disillusioned and getting back into drugs, crashing harder every time. I lost contact with him a few years back so I dunno how he is doing now.

The point is that he DID try to become a Christian at varies points in his life, even as a kid, but his prayers were never answered.

I don't want to demean the experiences of your friend, so am wary of making any claims of any sort, but I do know that Christianity isn't something you can just drop because you become disillusioned, or because Christians behave badly.

Christianity is about picking up your cross, and following Him, despite the storm. That's how faith grows. If your friend turned away from Christ because he grew disillusioned, he denied Christ the opportunity to minister to him when his burden was great.

It reminds me of a little known saying by an awesome Christian:

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

Am praying for your friend, that he get in touch somehow I know that won't mean anything to you, but prayer is immensely powerful... it took my doggedly persisting with Christianity to discover that.

 

[DarkProphet]

I don't want to demean the experiences of your friend, so am wary of making any claims of any sort, but I do know that Christianity isn't something you can just drop because you become disillusioned, or because Christians behave badly.

Christianity is about picking up your cross, and following Him, despite the storm. That's how faith grows. If your friend turned away from Christ because he grew disillusioned, he denied Christ the opportunity to minister to him when his burden was great.

What a passive way to say that "he didn't try hard enough", typical Christian response.

It reminds me of a little known saying by an awesome Christian:

Am praying for your friend, that he get in touch somehow I know that won't mean anything to you, but prayer is immensely powerful... it took my doggedly persisting with Christianity to discover that.

My friends UNANSWERED prayers are what made him fall deeper. No, prayer is a placebo, and is a dangerous substitute for real help.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

What a passive way to say that "he didn't try hard enough", typical Christian response.

Why do you see it as passive?

My friends UNANSWERED prayers are what made him fall deeper.

But prayer doesn't work that way... God isn't a sugar-daddy that gives us what we want when we want. It's hard standing in faith, but if we cling onto Him and stand, He never ever lets His people down. Our having to wait longer than we'd like to doesn't negate Him in any way.

God isn't a magic genie who grants wishes... why do so many expect Him to be that way?

No, prayer is a placebo, and is a dangerous substitute for real help.

Would you believe that if you'd witnessed physical healings, or experienced truly miraculous answers to prayer? Whether you believe others have is irrelevant for the time being - if you had experienced those things, would you still believe prayer is powerless and, even worse, actually "dangerous"?

 

[hsmommyofmany]

What a passive way to say that "he didn't try hard enough", typical Christian response.



My friends UNANSWERED prayers are what made him fall deeper. No, prayer is a placebo, and is a dangerous substitute for real help.

so because someone does not receive the answer from God that THEY felt they should get...that is a reason to deny God? there is a reason why WE do not have Gods job...we are human, and selfish. God is way bigger than we can ever imagine and sometimes his answers may be unexpected or easy to miss. this does not prove that he does not exist. why do we always blame God for the bad and forget about Him in the good?

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

I have no personal issues with inquiry. I used to be an atheist, I only ended up a Christian through very serious inquiry.

However, here's the problem we most often come across: There is many a non-Christian who does not wish to "inquire" for any purpose other than to create issues. Flaming, baiting, mocking, belittling, and basically everything that falls under the "flaming" rule of CF: This is a very common trend in the so-called "inquiry" phase that some people embark on around Christian Forums.

So for me, truthful honest inquiry is very welcome. When I was an atheist, I sought out God truthfully and lo and behold I found Him. I went with an open heard and an open mind to learning and discovering and re-discovering things I thought I already had the answers to.

Many people enter the so-called "inquiry" process with a closed mind, at best, at worst a negative attitude full of hatred, malicious intent, and a "I'll prove you wrong" attitude. None of this will get a person anywhere, and these traits are not indicative of anyone seeking answers. A person who comes into an inquiry with a stand-offish nature only serves to debate for the sole purpose of debate; not, I imagine, for the purpose of truly seeking answers which may be different from what he or she thought the answer woudl be. This is the key. In an inquiry process, you must be open to finding answers you never thought were even possible. If you are set in your ways, your mind will absorb very little new information.

Inquiry, as defined by wikipedia: Inquiry or enquiry[1] is any process that has the aim of augmenting knowledge, resolving doubt, or solving a problem.

You cannot solve a problem if you start out by saying "There is no solution", you cannot resolve doubt by saying "I will always doubt, this will never change", and you cannot augment knowledge by saying "I am right, and you are wrong, that is simply the way it is" -- however, each of these attitudes? Is almost always present in your average "inquiry" that I see on a regular basis. When the beginning of the process is flawed, nothing but rotten fruit is produced, instead of good fruit.

Anyway, that's my take on things


Reminder:

I will remind you all at this time, that ranting/raving/debating/complaining about the rules or staff actions in public is prohibited (no one has done that yet, just making sure you remember ) and discussion of previous staff actions such as the closure of GA will be carefully watched, because in the past these conversations have proven to get quite off-topic. If you have questions about the closure of GA, please seek counsel from a staff member in private. I must request at this time that any specific discussion of the closure of GA should not to continue on in public.

I will give this thread the benefit of the doubt, and assume you can head this warning. Please stick to the actual topic at hand, which is a very valid one: "I've found that Christians both here and in person fear inquiry into their beliefs. Why is this?"

 

[DarkProphet]

But prayer doesn't work that way... God isn't a sugar-daddy that gives us what we want when we want.

The Bible is clear that God will deliver what we NEED to those who ask. Christians usually point to that and say you didn't need it if God didn't deliver, which is fine. The problem is that my friend needed something, I dunno what, I doubt he knew what but SOMETHING, and God didn't deliver.

It's hard standing in faith, but if we cling onto Him and stand, He never ever lets His people down. Our having to wait longer than we'd like to doesn't negate Him in any way.

How long should have he waited? At one point he was going to church every Sunday for two years in hopes of becoming a Christian. Shouldn't he have gotten some kind of spiritual encouragement rather then nothing?

God isn't a magic genie who grants wishes... why do so many expect Him to be that way?

Probably because that's what the Bible implies.

Would you believe that if you'd witnessed physical healings, or experienced truly miraculous answers to prayer? Whether you believe others have is irrelevant for the time being - if you had experienced those things, would you still believe prayer is powerless and, even worse, actually "dangerous"?

This is a red herring because physical healing through prayer has been PROVEN false through studies and the Christian definition of "miracle" seems to be a slightly unlikely event.

There were no miracles for my friend.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

The Bible is clear that God will deliver what we NEED to those who ask. Christians usually point to that and say you didn't need it if God didn't deliver, which is fine. The problem is that my friend needed something, I dunno what, I doubt he knew what but SOMETHING, and God didn't deliver.

DP, if your friend didn't even know what it is he needed, how can you be angry that God didn't provide? Equally, how do you know God didn't?

How long should have he waited?

Honestly, as long as it takes. I know that's not a sentiment the world understands nowadays when we want what we want and we want it now; where even news reports are 60 seconds to satisfy our non-existent attention span... the idea of having to wait patiently is anathema and, yes, opens us up to charges of passivity.

If I hear thunder and see lightning, I know the rain is on its way. It will arrive in its own time, but it will arrive.

At one point he was going to church every Sunday for two years in hopes of becoming a Christian. Shouldn't he have gotten some kind of spiritual encouragement rather then nothing?

From the people there if nothing else. Listen, when I became a Christian, there were no fireworks. I really thought there would be because my conversion was so dramatic in terms of where I'd been before (militant atheist) but, nothing. And my first church was cruel, and cold and made me feel like I was nothing. But Christianity isn't about feeling something... it's about truly believing that Christ is the Saviour, and following Him even when we feel spiritually dry, or empty, because we know He is God.

People seem to feel Christianity ought to make life easier and happyclappywonderful - where does it say that? Christianity is hard, and many of us seriously struggle with it... but you persist, because there's simply no other viable option. Once you know the truth, how can you deny it?

Probably because that's what the Bible implies.

Only when Benny Hinn misinterprets it.

This is a red herring because physical healing through prayer has been PROVEN false through studies and the Christian definition of "miracle" seems to be a slightly unlikely event.

Really? Miracles have been proven empirically false across the board?

There were no miracles for my friend.

How do you know He hasn't experienced something amazing since you last spoke?

But, again, we don't follow God for what He can give us, and do for us. He's already given us salvation; He isn't a cosmic vending machine.
Christianity is following Him because He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[DarkProphet]

DP, if your friend didn't even know what it is he needed, how can you be angry that God didn't provide?

Are you saying that God didn't know what my friend needed?

Equally, how do you know God didn't?

Because nothing ever changed.

Honestly, as long as it takes. I know that's not a sentiment the world understands nowadays when we want what we want and we want it now; where even news reports are 60 seconds to satisfy our non-existent attention span... the idea of having to wait patiently is anathema and, yes, opens us up to charges of passivity.

Life was happening while in waiting and no, he did not have forever to wait.

If I hear thunder and see lightning, I know the rain is on its way. It will arrive in its own time, but it will arrive.

From the people there if nothing else. Listen, when I became a Christian, there were no fireworks. I really thought there would be because my conversion was so dramatic in terms of where I'd been before (militant atheist) but, nothing. And my first church was cruel, and cold and made me feel like I was nothing. But Christianity isn't about feeling something... it's about truly believing that Christ is the Saviour, and following Him even when we feel spiritually dry, or empty, because we know He is God.

So if you close your eyes and believe hard enough then you will trick yourself into believing for real. Nice to see your faith is a nice name for self disillusion.

People seem to feel Christianity ought to make life easier and happyclappywonderful - where does it say that? Christianity is hard, and many of us seriously struggle with it... but you persist, because there's simply no other viable option.

Christianity is sold as a snake oil cure all by televangelists all the time.

Once you know the truth, how can you deny it?

You don't know the truth, you simply BELIEVE you know the truth.

Only when Benny Hinn misinterprets it.

Really? Miracles have been proven empirically false across the board?

On a case by case basis? Yes.

How do you know He hasn't experienced something amazing since you last spoke?

Because he would have contacted me if he had.

But, again, we don't follow God for what He can give us, and do for us. He's already given us salvation;

He isn't a cosmic vending machine.
Christianity is following Him because He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Nice way to say that God does nothing.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Are you saying that God didn't know what my friend needed?

Not at all

Because nothing ever changed.

Again, God doesn't work like that.

Life was happening while in waiting and no, he did not have forever to wait.

Of course he did. We choose to wait, and we choose when we walk away.

So if you close your eyes and believe hard enough then you will trick yourself into believing for real. Nice to see your faith is a nice name for self disillusion.

Am disappointed that you've resorted to willfully misrepresenting what am saying. Please don't do that again.

Christianity is sold as a snake oil cure all by televangelists all the time.

They're wrong.

You don't know the truth, you simply BELIEVE you know the truth.

Fair enough

On a case by case basis? Yes.

Not the case, am sorry. Discussion stops being productive when statements like that are made. You can't prove that statement any more than I can disprove it. But the notion that all miracles have been proven false is nonsensical.

Millions of Christians have witnessed healings - including me. You don't have to believe them, but your denial of them has no bearing on whether they happened or not.

Because he would have contacted me if he had.

When you talk about your friend, are you speaking about yourself? Honestly.

Nice way to say that God does nothing.

Again with the misrepresentation. Do you need to believe that that's what I've said?

 

[Chesterton]

This is also relating to a general trend among Christians to cut off discussion.

This thread is ironic coming from you. Do you recall when we agreed to have a certain discussion over in GA, and you just stopped responding after I asked you a couple of hard questions?

 

[DarkProphet]

Discussion stops being productive when statements like that are made. You can't prove that statement any more than I can disprove it. But the notion that all miracles have been proven false is nonsensical.

Not all "miracles" have been proven false but those that have been looked into have.

Millions of Christians have witnessed healings - including me. You don't have to believe them, but your denial of them has no bearing on whether they happened or not.

I dunno what you believe you saw but when you believe in magical thinking it would be easy to believe in a miracle.

When you talk about your friend, are you speaking about yourself? Honestly.

I'm talking about someone I went to grade school with, we were inseparable up to the point he started getting into drugs. BTW, don't ever think you know me because you know nothing about me.

Again with the misrepresentation. Do you need to believe that that's what I've said?

"God doesn't work that way". It's the same thing as him doing nothing.

Funny how it's never God's fault that people who seek him out don't quite make it. You've been making up excuses for God this whole time. My friend didn't try hard enough, God doesn't answer prayers like that, he should have waited, etc., etc.,

"I also believe that Christ will not turn away anyone who humbly and honestly is seeking him. I have yet to see anyone deny this."

My friend DID seek, at varies points in his life, and found nothing.
​

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Not all "miracles" have been proven false but those that have been looked into have.

And there are millions that haven't been "looked into"... there are verified cases of people being resurrected from the dead, cancer being healed, limbs being healed and re-growing - why are you so desperate to disbelieve?

I dunno what you believe you saw but when you believe in magical thinking it would be easy to believe in a miracle.

Magical thinking? DP, am never going to trade insults with you or give you something to push back against, no matter how snarky you are or how many pejoratives you assign.

But, for the record, side-swipes and insults aren't the same thing as debating the issue.

I'm talking about someone I went to grade school with, we were inseparable up to the point he started getting into drugs. BTW, don't ever think you know me because you know nothing about me.

Che? You've lost me...

"God doesn't work that way". It's the same thing as him doing nothing.

Not in the least.

Funny how it's never God's fault that people who seek him out don't quite make it. You've been making up excuses for God this whole time. My friend didn't try hard enough, God doesn't answer prayers like that, he should have waited, etc., etc.,

"I also believe that Christ will not turn away anyone who humbly and honestly is seeking him. I have yet to see anyone deny this."

My friend DID seek, at varies points in his life, and found nothing.​

At various points, on his own schedule. God doesn't work to our schedule, He works to His own.

Am honestly sorry if that isn't good enough, but it is what it is. I saw another question here where someone asked a question and said "And don't say it's free will!" But if the answer is free will, the answer is free will.

God is Almighty beyond our comprehension, and He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers. That's just how it is, whether we like it or not.
​

 

[Lukaris]

I am at work & cannot read this entire thread. I understand a friend of the original poster has lapsed into drug addiction. There are professional Christian organizations that provide medical, psychological etc. services http://www.cmda.org/AM/Template.cfm and http://www.cathmed.org/index.htm If someone has provided this info or you have already tried it then sorry for being redundant. The thing is prayer has helped the intellect of man expand & receive more of God's grace but humanity chooses to use it for good and evil. Take for ex, flight while it was discovered for peaceful use, it soon degenerated into a tool in warfare & many innocent suffer & continue to do so. We must have faith that the Lord will not let those who are innocent (those who die to murder, natural disaster etc.) will ultimately rest in the Lord, "For the needy shall not alway be forgotten: the expectation of the poor shall not perish for ever." (Psalm 9:18, KJV). Think about what about Herod's murder of the innocents during the birth of our Saviour Jesus Christ (Matthew 2:16-18). There is hardship but we must endure just as we try to survive a natural disaster for instance & prayer & everyday work are crucial but we are always at God's mercy. Some may relegate this as random fate but to Christians we persevere & believe in something greater.

 

[DarkProphet]

And there are millions that haven't been "looked into"... there are verified cases of people being resurrected from the dead, cancer being healed, limbs being healed and re-growing - why are you so desperate to disbelieve?

I find it amusing how you persist in saying there exist "verified" miracles and then continue to speak only in generalities. Most people would try to show their "verified" miracle at this point.

Am honestly sorry if that isn't good enough, but it is what it is. I saw another question here where someone asked a question and said "And don't say it's free will!" But if the answer is free will, the answer is free will.

The answer is whatever gets God out any kind of obligation.

God is Almighty beyond our comprehension, and He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers. That's just how it is, whether we like it or not.

Then God as good as dead.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I find it amusing how you persist in saying there exist "verified" miracles and then continue to speak only in generalities. Most people would try to show their "verified" miracle at this point.

Most probably would, and perhaps they're better apologists and debaters and Christians than I am. But I don't think it wouldn't prove anything. People who want not to belive will never be persuaded because of miracles or apologetics - it will take a direct encounter with Christ; that's between you and Him alone.

The answer is whatever gets God out any kind of obligation.

Why would I need to give Him an out? I've never understood that line of reason. What "obligation" does He have?

Then God as good as dead.

Because He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers He's as good as dead? Surely you see how illogical that statement is.

 

[DarkProphet]

Most probably would, and perhaps they're better apologists and debaters and Christians than I am. But I don't think it wouldn't prove anything. People who want not to belive will never be persuaded because of miracles or apologetics

And people who DO want to believe will latch on to anything to validate their belief, no matter how outlandish.

it will take a direct encounter with Christ; that's between you and Him alone.

I wont hold my breath.

Why would I need to give Him an out? I've never understood that line of reason. What "obligation" does He have?

Probably the stuff that God says he would do in the Bible.

Because He doesn't come running when we snap our fingers He's as good as dead? Surely you see how illogical that statement is.

No, because God being dead changes nothing.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

And people who DO want to believe will latch on to anything to validate their belief, no matter how outlandish.

This may well be the case sometimes, yes. But what of those who have witnessed physical healings? There in front of us, seen it with our own eyes - not talked about on God TV, or told about, but actually seen.

Crazy would be denying it, not acknowledeging it.

I wont hold my breath.

But, can I ask you a question? Do you know that even now, as you read this, He wants you to get to know Him? I know it can often seem like some abstract idea, but here and now, He is a real Being and He's waiting for you and wanting you to know Him.

Probably the stuff that God says he would do in the Bible.

No, I understand that, but why would He be obligated? He doesn't need for us to worship Him. He doesn't need us at all. So why would He need an out?

No, because God being dead changes nothing.

So said Nietzsche. But there's that famous piece of graffiti:

"God is dead" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead" - God

God being dead would change absolutely everything. Everything that's good in this world comes from Him.