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How this thread is in this section rather than Contro, that I can't tell you.
Using the Bible as a source of truth requires faith, and agnostics and atheists don’t have faith. They want to apply the same type of reasoning, testing, and science as they do with everything else. If something exists, then like anything else that want to see evidence of it. Anyone can say unicorns and dragons exist, but since there is no evidence we know that they don’t. They want the same standards applied to religious claims, can you blame them?
The belief that the Bible is the word of God/truth is based completely on faith. That was my point. Only people who believe that bible is the word of god consider it a source of truth.I think it has more to do with emotionalism than it does faith! It is often found those who deny a place of torment for the unjust, as well as those who argue for universal salvation are typically allowing their emotions to overrule the truth found in the Word of God. It's more about how they FEEL regardless of what the Word says.
Sorry, I don’t understand how that is a reply to my comment. Can you relate that to what I said about atheists and agnostics wanting to see evidence of things to know they exist?My understanding is that we are to be witnesses, which for me means to tell the truth. Salvation is the miracle which God alone can do and how does that help when we as witnesses are witholding the truth, because we think that people might not like the truth. Sorry, but God wants our yea to be yea and our nay to be nay. Why should people want to be saved, if there is no hell to be saved from!
I put it here because hell is where most people will be at the end times, when Jesus is on Earth with all of us. Do you believe hell will no longer exist when Jesus returns?
It makes no sense that the most loving Person in the world would want to make any dead people suffer excruciating pain forever.
Clearly, God does punish people. So, I wonder why she thinks He punishes anyone at all, even if it wasn't forever? Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin. He is very patient and slow to anger. But, notice what that says. Slow to anger. That means He does get angry. It just takes a long time for Him to get angry. And He is just. So, God's trait of holiness and His sense of justice demands that He punish unrepentant wickedness.My mom, a Methodist who was raised Presbyterian, does not believe hell exists just because God is love. It makes no sense that the most loving Person in the world would want to make any dead people suffer excruciating pain forever.
They have the wrong understanding of hell, unfortunately. People don't physically go to hell. Just their souls go there. But, they are probably really referring to what scripture calls "the lake of fire" which is the eventual eternal destination of unbelievers. But, again, I don't believe it will involve physical pain in "the lake of fire".After all, look at how many miracles God performed on people for the purpose of eliminating physical and psychological suffering, even on people who do not know Him.
Recently, non-Christians have been telling me if hell is real, we believe in a "wicked" god and it is better to not to be a Christian because of our belief all non-believers will suffer this way after a physical death.
Hell is certainly an actual place. Scripture makes that clear. I assume (hope) when you say "literal" you just mean physical?This is totally understandable. Unfortunately, I was taught being a Christian requires believing in a literal hell at an evangelical church.
By telling them it's not a place of physical suffering, but rather mental and emotional torment that people bring upon themselves by rejecting God.What can I tell non-believers to make them understand the existence of hell does not mean we believe in an evil God?
O.k.What is it you assume is my idea of hell? A lot of what I submitted is not my idea of hell, but the idea of other interpreters.
Yes, I know that some people do believe that. To them I would ask, "Why would you think that mental torment, day and night, FOREVER isn't as bad as literal fire?"What I do think about hell is this, though. It's a literal place and the fire there is literal. Some interpreters, the ones who believe hell to be never ending, in regards to humans, insist the fire is not literal. I guess that way it makes hell not so bad after all. Could they or would they continue to believe hell is never ending for humans if they were instead convinced the fire is literal?
[/quote][/QUOTE]Clearly, God does punish people. So, I wonder why she thinks He punishes anyone at all, even if it wasn't forever? Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin. He is very patient and slow to anger. But, notice what that says. Slow to anger. That means He does get angry. It just takes a long time for Him to get angry. And He is just. So, God's trait of holiness and His sense of justice demands that He punish unrepentant wickedness.
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That is not just talking about physical death, but also the second death (Revelation 20:15) which results in eternal separation from God. And scripture indicates that being cast into the lake of fire results in eternal torment (Rev 14:10, 20:10).
Now, with all of this said, what makes your mom think that it will be physical pain that people suffer in hell? It's only the souls of unbelievers that are in hell right now, so they can't possibly be experiencing physical pain there. I assume maybe she's talking about the lake of fire (Rev 20:15) instead? I don't believe it will be physical pain that people experience even in "the lake of fire", but rather will be mental and emotional anguish and torment. There is nothing in scripture which indicates that it will be physical torment. The lake of fire is not a literal, physical lake of literal fire. The lake of fire is symbolic just like much of Revelation is. The fire represents the burning emotional pain of regret. Regret that they will be separated from God for eternity and miss out on all of the eternal blessings they could have had if only they had repented of their sins as God commands "all people everywhere" to do (Acts 17:30).
They have the wrong understanding of hell, unfortunately. People don't physically go to hell. Just their souls go there. But, they are probably really referring to what scripture calls "the lake of fire" which is the eventual eternal destination of unbelievers. But, again, I don't believe it will involve physical pain in "the lake of fire".
Hell is certainly an actual place. Scripture makes that clear. I assume (hope) when you say "literal" you just mean physical?
By telling them it's not a place of physical suffering, but rather mental and emotional torment that people bring upon themselves by rejecting God.
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
A passage like this shows that the punishment they will experience in the future when they are judged will be separation "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". They will experience feelings of deep regret over that.
That actually makes no sense. Why the eternal torture? What does God get out of that? How is His holiness affirmed by torturing some poor fool for all eternity? It sure puts paid to the idea of God's love, though, doesn't it? Love doesn't torture, hate does. If someone is a hopeless iredeemable sinner, what's the point of tormenting them forever?Yes, God is love, but He is also holy. His holiness prevents Him from tolerating and excusing unrepentant sin.
But He's still gonna condemn most of the people He's created. That sounds like angry is His default state.He is very patient and slow to anger.
That's obviously wrong, because your lot keeps assuring us that the wages of sin is eternal life imder torture.The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).
Why not just delete them from existence and have done? Why if all those places where it says that sinners face death are actually true? And what if death really means death, and not something (or anything) else it can be claimed to "really mean" so that it doesn't conflict with the doctrine of eternal conscious torment?THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.
The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfulness, the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.Infinte punishment for finite offenses isn't really very just, is it?
The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfulness, the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.
Since one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel, I mean, a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, the eternally rotten, perfectly (fully) leavened, person must be removed from the barrel, ie this reality, so the purity of the heavenly marriage is preserved.
ImCo:Is it your opinion that everyone cast into the LOF, they have all committed the unforgivable sin? Or is it your opinion that only some of them have and that the rest haven't?
Do EO teach that belief in Christ is not required for salvation?The only thing that gets someone tossed off into hell is their own conduct.
Nonsense. Finite beings aren't capable if infnite anything.The infinite punishment is for infinite sinfullnes
So almost everybody commits the Unforgiveble Sin the, right? Must be relatively easy to commit them, isn't it?the unforgivable sin which renders the person eternally sinful.
OK, fine. Why not just erasure from time and space, then, and not the barbarous penalty of eternal torture? Sounds ridiculous to me. (That provides you an opportunity for Christian one-upsmanship, so be sure to take advantage of it). If people are broke, why not fix them? If they can't be fixed (too hard for God, maybe?), why not just delete them? Why eternal torture? God get a kick out of it?Since one rotten apple will spoil the whole barrel, I mean, a little leaven will leaven the whole lump, the eternally rotten, perfectly (fully) leavened, person must be removed from the barrel, ie this reality, so the purity of the heavenly marriage is preserved.
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