Why does hell exist?

GodLovesCats · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I have no idea what "someone's systematic theology" has to do with anything? Am I quoting anyone? This is a discussion about what the bible says, not about what an author has said.

Who do you think the author of the Bible is?

Here is a hint: the same man who is specifically mentioned in John 3:16.

zoidar · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
The use of "world" in John 12 means the same thing I said about John 3:16. Jesus came to save mankind in a general way, not every single person ever born. If you take the word to mean "every single individual," you are forced to interpret "for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" to strictly mean he will save every single individual. See, that creates theological problems.

For so God loved the world (every individual), that He sent His only Son, that everyone who believes in him will be saved. God didn't sent his Son to judge the world (everyone in the world that deny him), but to save the world (everyone who believes in him).

eleos1954 · Aug 26, 2019

Der Alter said:
This verse says nothing at all about the return of Jesus.
The saints in paradise will not be treading on the ashes of the wicked dead because the ashes of the wicked dead will not be in paradise.

Didn't say they were in paradise. This was referring to the very end (GWTJ). When something is destroyed by fire .... everything is consumed and turns to ashes ... it's common knowledge ... and at the GWTJ everything is destroyed by fire.

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

2 Peter 2:6
If by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Jonaitis · Aug 26, 2019

zoidar said:
For so God loved the world (every individual), that He sent His only Son, that everyone who believes in him will be saved. God didn't sent his Son to judge the world (everyone in the world that deny him), but to save the world (everyone who believes in him).

I'm seeing here three different uses of "world" in two verses.

Jonaitis · Aug 26, 2019

renniks said:
No, I believe what my Bible says. I'm not much interested in whether someone's systematic theology says otherwise, or if it's opposition to someone's theory about how atonement has to work.

Does your own theology match with Scripture? That's the real question. It is possible that that "someone" actually exegetes Scripture properly.

zoidar · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I'm seeing here three different uses of "world" in two verses.

Yes exactly! This is the meaning of John 3:16-17.

NothingIsImpossible · Aug 26, 2019

Answer is easy. Because why would non-believers be scared if they knew they went to heaven anyways (if no hell existed). What would even be the point of being a christian. Hell exists because it's where you go if you don't believe. Even the bible says EVERY corner of the earth will know of God. So they have no excuse not to believe. It may sound harsh but they essentially chose hell over God by saying God isn't even real and not becoming saved.

Jonaitis · Aug 26, 2019

zoidar said:
Yes exactly!

This is where we agree to disagree. I believe Jesus is using the "world" in the same way in John 3:16-17. They don't have three different meanings, they are too close in proximity to suggest that and it falls from the context.

eleos1954 · Aug 26, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
You and her mother are mistaken

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

The wicked will experience conscious eternal torment;
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why does hell exist?

zoidar · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
This is where we agree to disagree. I believe Jesus is using the "world" in the same way in John 3:16-17

Yes, but John 12 tells us different.

"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

Jonaitis · Aug 26, 2019

zoidar said:
Yes, but John 12 tells us different.

"I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."

Gymnastics to support a doctrinal position.

Lazarus Short · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I have no idea what "someone's systematic theology" has to do with anything? Am I quoting anyone? This is a discussion about what the bible says, not about what an author has said.

"...what the bible says..." yet I find a lot of religious opinion in this thread.

MournfulWatcher · Aug 26, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
My logic should be easy to understand. If God does not want anyone to suffer, why would He send people who have no way to even know Him to hell?

Yes, God does hate Satan.

Where in the Bible are we told that God does not want anyone to suffer?

I don't say that to suggest that God actually wants us to suffer, but escaping suffering isn't His main goal; His goal is to save people. Sometimes that means going through pain-Jesus Himself went through a hellish experience.

Your question also assumes God would send people who have no way of knowing him to hell. We don't know who God is saving and who he is not, but he "will have compassion on whom he will have compassion, and show mercy to whom he will show mercy". Therefore the question is meaningless.

RaymondG · Aug 26, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
My mom said a loving God would not create hell because He does not want people to suffer eternally, so she does not believe it exists. Why isn't this true?

Seems like a weird excuse to not believe in God..... There are many who Believe in God but not in Hell....or have a different view of Hell.

Linking the acknowledgement of God to the existence of a torture chamber is Odd.....for you must first prove the torture chamber exist before you can use it to validate your disbelief in God.....and if you prove it exist.....then there must be one who created it.

Sounds like you are being given runarounds to dismiss talks of God....and therefore, you should run from the conversation.

RaymondG · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
This should drive evangelism, a love for people to know Jesus.

This would imply that we are trying to save people from the wrath of the God we serve.....That we, somehow love the creation more than the creator........thereby reinforcing the feelings of the Mother of the OP.

This is simply not truth.....No one loves that person, who hasnt heard about Christ, more than God Himself.......for God is Love.

No need to feel that we must rush across the world to get a message to someone, lest they be tortured for eternity.....For God is already there.

His ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

RaymondG · Aug 26, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
So what do you do about this if you are not the "chosen one" to be a missionary? I am all for missions by Vineyard churhches, but you can't expect someone to listen anymore after being told what hell is;.

If your Good news about God to others have to include a torture chamber.....then I would refrain from speaking this good news.

The joys of Heaven and the experience of the love of God should be enough to persuade anyone to Follow him........If you must add......"if you dont believe me, you will burn forever" then you may not actually have experienced and therefore know, the good news....

CharismaticLady · Aug 26, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
So now it comes to why did God create Satan and demons?

God created Lucifer as perfect. Maybe almost too perfect, because Lucifer got a swelled head, and had many admirers - 1/3 of the angels. He wanted to be God. God also created man and woman to be perfect, and I think Lucifer was jealous. God placed them in the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God that God had made for Lucifer.

Maybe you will understand and can show your mom. Read this about Lucifer in Ez. 28.

“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.

18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

Vicky gould · Aug 26, 2019

THE W said:
it exists as God's vengeance against His enemies.

in the long run your statement is correct. But when our Lord was creating we are told this:

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me,' you who are cursed, into the eternal fire' prepared for the devil and his angels."

Our God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not have men in mind for the citizens of hell. Hell was meant for Satan and his fallen angels. Satan is not the lord of hell or anyone in hell. Satan is going to be the one in the hottest part of that fire and all his angels with him. Men place themselves in hell but it does not alter the fact the Lord created for the chief fallen angel and all his followers who are the angels who left their appointed place, heaven, for the world.

RaymondG · Aug 26, 2019

Dave L said:
How does a creature observe God's attributes without something to compare them to?

This is an acceptable reason for us to create attributes that oppose the nature of God.....not for God to create it. God needs and has no opposition....for the Lord is One and besides Him there is no others.

Anything contrary is created, successfully, i should add, in/by our own minds......maybe, as you suggest, because we need to sit in darkness, before appreciating light.

zoidar · Aug 26, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Gymnastics to support a doctrinal position.

How do you understand this then?

John 12
46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Why does hell exist?

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