Why does hell exist?

[zoidar]

Does God love those whom he eternally punishes in hell? Isn't that where his wrath is poured out on? You cannot reconcile the idea that God loves the one whom he abandons outside the kingdom to weep and gnash their teeth in outer darkness.

God sent Jesus into the world to save sinners, yet he knows whom he came for.

God's love for all men is uptil the day of judgement. Then his love is withdrawn from those sentenced to hell.

John 12
44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

 

[Jonaitis]

God's love for all men is uptil the day of judgement. Then his love is withdrawn from those sentenced to hell.

This is suggesting that God's love is conditional on the part of man. I believe in an eternal, unchanging love from God that cannot be affected by what we are or what we do. So either he loves those whom he loves forever, or does not love them at all.

 

[GodLovesCats]

How does a creature observe God's attributes without something to compare them to?

Bingo! Before there were humans, there were animals in the water, on land, and in the sky. They weren't capable of sinning, except for one serpent. So not only do people, but also every other kind of animal the Lord made, go to heaven. This could not be true if God did not already have love, mercy, and grace for all living creatures.

 

[GodLovesCats]

God so loved the world does not mean he loves every separate individual, otherwise the passage wouldn't make sense.

If God did not love every individual, He could not have "so loved the world."

 

[renniks]

I don't know how you define God's love, but it isn't in terms of human affection, but rather an action that involves blessing an individual/group. You cannot experience the 'love' of God in hell. It is not an act of benevolence, but instead a displaying of his wrath toward sinners.

No, you can't experience God's love in hell, because it is outside, while Jesus is inside with those who accepted his love. But sinners experience the love of God everyday in the blessings of this world, in human love and friendship and beauty, etc. And they are all capable of experiencing a real relationship with Him that goes far beyond his blessings. It is a gift offered to all.

 

[Jonaitis]

No, you can't experience God's love in hell, because it is outside, while Jesus is inside with those who accepted his love. But sinners experience the love of God everyday in the blessings of this world, in human love and friendship and beauty, etc. And they are all capable of experiencing a real relationship with Him that goes far beyond his blessings. It is a gift offered to all.

I suppose we have different meanings to different terms. I wouldn't use 'love' to describe the kindness God shows all people, but 'common grace' or 'goodness.' God is good to all and kind to everyone, but love is something entirely different and is only experienced in Christ.

 

[zoidar]

This is suggesting that God's love is conditional on the part of man..

No.

I believe in an eternal, unchanging love from God that cannot be affected by what we are or what we do.

I believe this too! As long as we are in this world nothing can change His love for all mankind through the cross.

 

[Tyler52]

I do not believe in Hell. At least not as a literal place, or as an eternal punishment for simply being human

It is preposterous to believe that a perfect, loving God would create humans with flaws and then blame humans for God's own Error. It would be equally illogical for an all-knowing God to create humans knowing that they were ultimately going to fail and turn away from Him.

As such humans are destined to failure. If that is the mythology of the creation and eternal punishment were true. Which they are not.

Hell then can be used as a concept for the absence of Love or the absence of all good things which of course come to us through the Spirit of God and the Christ consciousness. Anyone who does not have the love of Christ in their life could be said to be living in Hell already.

OF course there are Biblical references to the wicked who abide in Gahanna, a place where Wicked Kings of Judah would sacrifice children through burning. Certainly such an event would in my opinion be a very hellish place and something which defines evil.

But the concept of Hell really didn't kick in until the Early Middle Ages when the Catholic church in Europe needed a little more motivation to goad people into conversion. IT was easy at the time for the church to spread this concept to ignorant and fearful people.

But today we don't live with ignorance and fear. We live with light love and knowledge. Our knowledge of our world in our universe has taken us to the depths of the ocean and out of our own solar system. We are able to now see the far edges of our universe. And to me the most exciting thing is not what we've learned but we have yet to learn. We live and learn with the light of Christ witch calls and elevates us to a higher or peaceful and more joyful level of existence. And we live Our Lives In Love With Love Of Christ through us. This is what we call the Christ Consciousness where we allow Christ to live within us work through us not just on Sunday mornings but all the time all day everyday, and all that we do we allow the light and the life in the love of Christ to show through us. With such, no hell has a chance to exist.

That's heresy! First Gahanna is not hell, it is the lake of fire described in Revelation. Second, God is good, therefore he has to punish evil because he so too good not to. Third, Sheol (paradise and he'll) has always been a concept, we know because even David wrote about it in the Psalms! Fourth hell is literal, it is the place were there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, were the smoke doesn't stop rising. I really hope that that sounded familiar. Fifth, Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.".

Edit: purgatory (as a place) was an invention of the Roman Catholics not hell. People bought indulgences to get their loved ones out of purgatory. It was a scam. Meanwhile all other Orthodox still had and have a concept of hell

 

[renniks]

It is in Christ where God loves the sinner, but outside him there is only wrath.

God the Father is not only wrath, as he demonstates all though scripture. He, after all, came up with the plan of redemption as much as Christ did.

I may show kindness to my neighbor's children, but I do not love them as my own.

But you are not God, and God's love is limitless. There are quite a few people I doubt I would die for, but he died for all of them.

 

[Jonaitis]

There are quite a few people I doubt I would die for, but he died for all of them.

If Christ died for all, then all would be saved.

If Christ suffered on behalf of those who will eventually be judged anyways, then his suffering for them and his blood was spilled in vain, or God is playing double jeopardy. In truth, you believe Christ only died for those who believe.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am shocked someone believes one of the best-known and important verses in the Bible - one that I had attached to my own salvation - denies its meaning. John 3:16 is special to me because I was saved on, of all days, Msrch 16 (3/16).

 

[Dave L]

It says nothing about how God created...

“And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:” Ephesians 3:9–11 (KJV 1900)

 

[Jonaitis]

If God did not love every individual, He could not have "so loved the world."

I responded to this on page 5 in seven posts, I do not need to go in circles with this.

 

[zoidar]

I responded to this on page 5 in seven posts, I do not need to go in circles with this.

You didn't reply to my post.

John 12
44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 3:16-17 is the short version of the verses qouted from John 12. You see, the world means both those who believe and those who deny.

 

[Jonaitis]

You didn't reply to my post.

John 3:16-17 is the short version of the verses qouted from John 12. You see, the world means both those who believe and those who deny.

The use of "world" in John 12 means the same thing I said about John 3:16. Jesus came to save mankind in a general way, not every single person ever born. If you take the word to mean "every single individual," you are forced to interpret "for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" to strictly mean he will save every single individual. See, that creates theological problems.

 

[renniks]

If Christ died for all, then all would be saved.

If Christ suffered on behalf of those who will eventually be judged anyways, then his suffering for them and his blood was spilled in vain, or God is playing double jeopardy. In truth, you believe Christ only died for those who believe.

No, I believe what my Bible says. I'm not much interested in whether someone's systematic theology says otherwise, or if it's opposition to someone's theory about how atonement has to work.

 

[Jonaitis]

No, I believe what my Bible says. I'm not much interested in whether someone's systematic theology says otherwise, or if it's opposition to someone's theory about how atonement has to work.

I have no idea what "someone's systematic theology" has to do with anything? Am I quoting anyone? This is a discussion about what the bible says, not about what an author has said.

 

[eleos1954]

[/QUOTE]="vinsight4u, post: 74242608, member: 10688"]all that do -wickedly= from Malachi 4:1
[/QUOTE]

Back to the original OP .. and NO God does not torture people in "hell" for eternity.

“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment” 2 Peter 2:9

There is not one single person in hellfire today. The Bible says that God reserves, or holds back, the wicked until the day of judgment to be punished.

Where are the unsaved who have already died?

“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” John 5:28, 29
“That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? … Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb” Job 21:30, 32 KJV

The Bible is specific. Both the unsaved and the saved who have died (earthly death) are in their graves “sleeping” (dormant) until their resurrection day.

What is the end result of sin?

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 6:23

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” James 1:15

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (death for eternity) but have everlasting life (for eternity)” John 3:16

Jesus died to save us from our sins. Those who do not accept His gift of salvation will receive death.

The wages for (or the result of) sin is death, not everlasting life in hellfire. The wicked “perish,” or receive “death (never to exist again).” The righteous receive “everlasting life.”

Why is understanding what death is so difficult? When one dies on earth all cease to exist on earth and rest (dormant) in their graves, until the Lord returns. 1st resurrection are changed become immortal and are with the Lord.

1st Corinthians 15

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

After the 2nd resurrection (the unsaved) ... all die the second death (do not become immortal) are destroyed (GWTJ) and cease to exist for eternity.

Revelation 20:14

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:26

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Sin is not totally destroyed unless death is destroyed for eternity.

No one living in "hell", being tortured ... death is destroyed and is final for eternity ... just like earthly death is final for our existence on earth ... so the 2nd death will be final for eternity.

It's not difficult to understand ... and this posters mom is correct .... God does not torture people for eternity. They are destroyed (never to exist again) due to the choices each one made while alive on earth in not receiving Jesus and His forgiveness, and from not repenting from their sin.

Death is death (not to exist). Life is life (to exist).

 

[renniks]

I have no idea what "someone's systematic theology" has to do with anything? Am I quoting anyone? This is a discussion about what the bible says, not about what an author has said.

"If Christ died for all, then all would be saved.

If Christ suffered on behalf of those who will eventually be judged anyways, then his suffering for them and his blood was spilled in vain, or God is playing double jeopardy. In truth, you believe Christ only died for those who believe."

This is what I was responding to. It's not scripture. This is a theory of how the atonement works, one theory among many, all supposedly derived from Scripture.

 

[GodLovesCats]

If Christ died for all, then all would be saved.

If Christ suffered on behalf of those who will eventually be judged anyways, then his suffering for them and his blood was spilled in vain, or God is playing double jeopardy. In truth, you believe Christ only died for those who believe.

Christ died for "whosoever belielves in HIm." All you have to do is believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior if you want to "not perish but have eternal life." What is so hard to understand about this?