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For the record, I find it easy to believe in free will but not in sin, evil, or Hell. I don't see how free will necessitates eternal torment by God?It seems to all boil down to free will and freedom...the questions about evil that is.
You can almost consider evil the "price" for free will.
God forcing everyone to be good and to live in a perfect world with no sin would not be love. We wouldnt be able to think for ourselves and would be like robots, and that would be evil in itself. It would make God a dictator, not the all loving being God is.
Without freedom and free will there is no love..
??? But everyone has sin, so the only free variable is belief. Believe, Heaven; don't believe, Hell. Am I not accurate?
Trickster
Also, there seems to be a theme here that you think people are in Hell because of their beliefs. They are not. If someone ends up in Hell it's because of their sin, not their belief. May sound like semantics, but it's not.
If everyone MUST sin, then it's a false choice. If everyone sins and nobody can avoid sin, you don't really have any say in whether or not you're a sinner, right?Yes, but people also CHOOSE to sin.
This is a good argument.I have noticed that the greatest misconceptions about God are caused by folks who put their own constraints on God. Whether they are philisophical, emotional, or just "common sense" constraints, its all the same. It ammouts to a throwing off of authority. We are back to the Garden of Eden. Satan dialoging with Eve. Satan did not really question God's authority. He led Eve to question God's authority. Does the pot say to the potter, why have you made me this way? Does the axe wield itself? The fact is that an evil god would send everyone to hell. Its like the age old question, "why do bad things happen to good people?" Who is good, there is none good but God. The queston should be, "why do good things happen to bad people.
For those who refuse to believe in a god because they think he is evil, I would ask. What is evil outside of a belief in God Where is your standard of good and evil? You are relying on God (who defines good and evil) to say that you don't believe in God.
damoncrowe
Can you describe these steps for me?There are steps you must take before the Spirit dwells within you. It's not as simple as reading the Bible.
Can you describe these steps for me?
Trickster
You already believe in God, you just reject Him. Romans 1 says that God's attributes are clearly seen and because of this no man has excuse. It also says that some did not like to retain God in knowledge, so God gave them up to a debased mind. But now a question for you: Do you really even desire salvation? It seems that you are in a position of hating God. It is the natural man that hates God. I have felt similar before. I cannot comfort you in your position and I hope you do not become complacent about your situation. It is a very good thing that it bothers you, I just hope that it bothers you enough.This is a good argument.
Still, the question remains: how can I believe in this view of God if I cannot understand a reason to believe in it logically? If reading the Bible does not instill the Spirit within me, should I resign myself to Hell and move on?
Trickster
I don't hate God at all, I just don't understand God in the same way that Christians here claim to understand Him. I don't intentionally reject God; I want to know how it is that you come to believe. The prevaling Christian description of God doesn't make sense to me, so I want to know if this means I am bound for Hell, or if I am still salvageable.You already believe in God, you just reject Him. Romans 1 says that God's attributes are clearly seen and because of this no man has excuse. It also says that some did not like to retain God in knowledge, so God gave them up to a debased mind. But now a question for you: Do you really even desire salvation? It seems that you are in a position of hating God. It is the natural man that hates God. I have felt similar before. I cannot comfort you in your position and I hope you do not become complacent about your situation. It is a very good thing that it bothers you, I just hope that it bothers you enough.
in Christ
damoncrowe
Ah, alright. My problem is still with step 1. In order to accept Jesus as true, I need to believe that He is true, and more specifically that the interpretations of the Nicene Creed and the Trinity (I gather) are also true. I don't currently understand why these should be true. How does one go about getting to step one, growing to believe? Or is belief simply a gift from God that I must patiently wait for?Jesus said "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Me." He said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father except through Me." Hearing this and accepting it as truth is one step.
Humbling yourself is the next step, and for two reasons. One, because "whosoever exalts himself will be humbled, whosoever shall humble himself will be exalted." Letting go of pride and vainglory, and accepting that we are sinners with an absolute need for Christ, is another step.
Part two of humbling yourself is repentance. Turning away from your former lifestyle, and seeking the Kingdom of God in thought, lifestyle, action, and truth. Reading the Bible alone doesn't make one Christian, no more than looking at a map makes you a geologist. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a mechanic -- it's applying these things into your life that makes the difference.
You've got hear, believe, and repent. Now comes confession. We must confess our sins, and forgive those who've sinned against us, that we may be forgiven. But this is only two parts of the process -- we can't shun holy baptism. Christ came to this earth sinless, why was He baptized? Because if we're to walk in His image, we should do as He did. As Romans says, we are buried with Christ in a watery grave, that we might be resurrected in His likeness.
And if your baptism is true, meaning you've taken all of the appropriate steps thus far, and you've done it for the remission of sins, not for a 'public display of belief', the Spirit will descend upon you.
If you want to get to point C, you don't start with A and skip B.
Is baptism absolutely necessary? For you and I, yes, I humbly belief that it is. We have that ability, and that right, should we decide to take the walk in faith to get there.
Humbling, hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, baptism.
Not reading, respectfully.
What's a "sinners prayer"?It's a toughie, admittedly.
Why did you once believe in Jesus? Did you step out in faith and say a sinners prayer, or associate yourself with a church?
I don't hate God at all, I just don't understand God in the same way that Christians here claim to understand Him. I don't intentionally reject God; I want to know how it is that you come to believe. The prevaling Christian description of God doesn't make sense to me, so I want to know if this means I am bound for Hell, or if I am still salvageable.
It doesn't really bother me, though...if God wants me in Hell then I will be there, so isn't that just and good?
Trickster
Ah, alright. My problem is still with step 1. In order to accept Jesus as true, I need to believe that He is true, and more specifically that the interpretations of the Nicene Creed and the Trinity (I gather) are also true. I don't currently understand why these should be true. How does one go about getting to step one, growing to believe? Or is belief simply a gift from God that I must patiently wait for?
Trickster
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