Why does God not stop the evil?

[Loudmouth]

If I were to ask you why people should not hurt others, what could you say? Take God out of the picture, and what have you got left as far as a basis for the worth of a man or woman?

It's called empathy and reason. We have all the tools necessary for determing morality for ourselves without needing to read books written by men about imagined gods.

Under a godless worldview, there is no ontic referrent or basis for which a person is intrinsically worth any more than an ant, or a rat, or a baboon.

Yes, there is. Again, it is called empathy which includes our ability to detect sapience in other individuals. Even in the field of Bioethics we give primates more rights than insects because we are able to detect the beginnings of sapience in these animals, and even more so in primates that are closely related to us.

Under a godless view of reality, man is simply an ape like creature that has evolved from some primordial soup who is living on a speck of dust in an uncaring universe and who is beset by these "delusions" of right and wrong.

Empathy and reason are not delusions.

 

[Freodin]

Let's take God into the picture.

Elioenai believes in objective morals. That means that a moral statement like "hurting others is wrong" is either correct or false... in every concievable situation. If it is correct in a single instance, it is correct in every instance.

Let's say that "hurting others is wrong" is a correct moral statement. Can we find situations where this does not apply? What about war? Self-defence? Punishment? God's actions?

So an absolutist like elioenai has to either agree that each and every of these situations are morally wrong... even when God's actions hurt others... or differate between these situations. Take into account things like agent, motivation, intent, circumstance.

The moral evalutation of our initial statement suddenly depends on all these things.

It has become relative.

 

[Loudmouth]

Time and again, I can only come to one conclusion. When it comes to evil and atrocities, our universe is indistinguishable from a universe without a god. From everything I have seen, you have as much chance at stopping evil and suffering by praying to a blade of grass as you do God. As Epicurus once put it:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
​

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Time and again, I can only come to one conclusion. When it comes to evil and atrocities, our universe is indistinguishable from a universe without a god. From everything I have seen, you have as much chance at stopping evil and suffering by praying to a blade of grass as you do God. As Epicurus once put it:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
​

This is the crux of it.

 

[seeking Christ]

For all the exchange, for all the arguments in all this thread, it always comes down to this point: the theists show their complete inability to leave their narrow ways of thinking.

What is to prevent the conclusion that it is your way of thinking that is narrow? And how do such things help anything at all?

 

[seeking Christ]

The fact remains that God is permitting all this suffering when that suffering does not need to exist.

No that's NOT a fact. You, the great and all-knowing Tiberius, are in no position to make any such proclamation. Pardon me while I look behind that curtain ...

I see a man pulling levers. You know what? I don't like suffering either. I suffer more than most, but a few suffer more than I do and still live.

Let me give you an anecdote about this. Over the past few days, in the Christian only section there has been someone who sports an Eastern Orthodox icon (EO) posting a lot in one thread. Now they claim to be "pre-denominational," an obvious attempt to appeal to those who identify with being "non-denominational." And yet most from that camp still come across at the end of the day as touting their Church as being "the thing." Not this guy. He actually conveys the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, as though no divisions in the Church ever happened or even matter.

What makes him different? Suffering. He's been through cancer. Don't ever pretend "suffering does not need to exist."

Or would they grow spiritually the better way - by working hard over many years? Like when people work to learn an instrument, or build a home, or raise a child. The important things that really improve us always take a lot of effort over many years. It is this effort itself that improves us.

Ok so you look suffering in the face and can't recognize it. You see its value anyway.

In any case, it's horrid that God would intentionally set up a system in which we NEED to suffer.

This is a good working definition of selfishness, as well as immaturity.`Just wait til you stumble onto one for faith - that'll really blow you away!

 

[seeking Christ]

Well I would except many atheists seem some middle ground between allowing anything (human and natural evil), and killing everyone.

For a start, stop earthquakes and tornadoes, etc. Stop crazy virus', bacteria, and diseases. If a child falls off a cliff, catch them. If someone is hurt, heal them.

As for human evils; why not stop the bullet, or make someones body uncuttable. Make the rapist fall asleep, or lose control of his body.

There would be many creative way to stop the worst evils, which don't involve striking the criminal dead.

And while I claim the Bible never says God is Omnipotent it does claim by example that he could do this kind of thing.

Think Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego!

Wonderful and creative comments!

When we read the miracles in the Bible, we see a case study on the fact that God says WE do these things. From our POV this of course makes no sense, which is why we are given not just one example or a few, but LOTS. Sooner or later we're bound to detect the pattern.

And from time to time people on here question prayer, what it is, etc. Putting the 2 together, every example in P's post are prayer requests God will honor. Since He gave dominion to US, He cannot do it w/o us being involved somehow; and prayer is the very least we can do.

 

[seeking Christ]

np

 

[Loudmouth]

Theres a slight problem with your thinking. You see, you are talking about the author of life.

But you have yet to prove why God, who creates life, is wrong in taking life.

Can you do this?

So if a person's god tells them to participate in human sacrifices then they are moral, correct?

Before you were arguing that human sacrifices were immoral, but now you are making moral justifications that can be used to support human sacrifices. When your moral code is justified by "because my god says so" we see atrocities abound.

 

[seeking Christ]

Why not?

Killing all Babylonians is not genocide?

If it said, "Kill all the Belgians," or "Kill all the Australians," then it would be. Why doesn't it count here?

Moving the goalposts - the question was killing because someone was a particular race. And that is NOT what you have in your example. (Nor any other)

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Moving the goalposts - the question was killing because someone was a particular race. And that is NOT what you have in your example. (Nor any other)

Killing anything not Hebrew is geno/ethnicide.

 

[Loudmouth]

What makes him different? Suffering. He's been through cancer. Don't ever pretend "suffering does not need to exist."

So why did he need to get cancer and suffer?

Ok so you look suffering in the face and can't recognize it. You see its value anyway.

Would you give one of your children cancer and have them die of cancer just to teach your other children a lesson about eating the right foods?

Would you do nothing to stop your children from playing in the middle of a busy highway? Would you allow one of your children to be hit by a car just to teach the other children a lesson about playing in the street?

 

[seeking Christ]

Let's take God into the picture.

Elioenai believes in objective morals. That means that a moral statement like "hurting others is wrong" is either correct or false... in every concievable situation. If it is correct in a single instance, it is correct in every instance.

Let's say that "hurting others is wrong" is a correct moral statement. Can we find situations where this does not apply? What about war? Self-defence? Punishment? God's actions?

So an absolutist like elioenai has to either agree that each and every of these situations are morally wrong... even when God's actions hurt others... or differate between these situations. Take into account things like agent, motivation, intent, circumstance.

The moral evalutation of our initial statement suddenly depends on all these things.

It has become relative.

Logic fail. You start with a flawed assumption (hurting others is wrong in every situation regardless) and further, this is overly simplistic.

If you are going to claim to "take God into the picture," you are going to have to realize you don't know enough to be able to do what you are trying to do here. God always has surprises left for us.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Logic fail. You start with a flawed assumption and further, this is overly simplistic.

If you are going to claim to "take God into the picture," you are going to have to realize you don't know enough to be able to do what you are trying to do here.

Please point out Freodin's fallacy, if you can.

 

[seeking Christ]

Killing anything not Hebrew is geno/ethnicide.

Killing anything Hebrew is geno/ethnicide. Congratulations, you have just voided any and all possible meaning from the topic.

 

[seeking Christ]

So why did he need to get cancer and suffer?



Would you give one of your children cancer and have them die of cancer just to teach your other children a lesson about eating the right foods?

Would you do nothing to stop your children from playing in the middle of a busy highway? Would you allow one of your children to be hit by a car just to teach the other children a lesson about playing in the street?

Are you ever going to stop beating your wife?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Killing anything Hebrew is geno/ethnicide. Congratulations, you have just voided any and all possible meaning from the topic.

This makes no sense.

 

[seeking Christ]

Please point out Freodin's fallacy, if you can.

I didn't label anything a "fallacy," but go back and see I edited my post. Does it answer your question, or are you asking something else?

 

[seeking Christ]

This makes no sense.

Exactly what i'm saying. You can't logically determine that Hebrews killing anyone or anything outside of their own tribe is genocide. To do that makes the term meaningless.

 

[Loudmouth]

Are you ever going to stop beating your wife?

Are you ever going to deal with what is in people's posts?