Why does God not present himself to us more openly?

[yesyoushould]

I am asking, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum. I've been told to be more sincere, but unfortunately no one can give me exact instructions on that.

I'm looking, but can't find anything yet.

As before, the symbolism is an issue. How do I knock on a door I can't see or feel?

The Bible says that God made all things. And that the "evil", that which kills, won't exist.

Is it ok to kill or let live?
Is it ok to curse or to hope well for another?
Is it ok to do both good and evil? How come?


Imagine that God made it all. God made this "lego park", and can tear it down anytime He chooses.

 

[Gumph]

Yahweh says everyone who truly seeks Him will find him ie. guaranteed.

Is the extremely high failure rate, then not a concern?

There's only One True God and if any human searches for Him they will find Yahweh. ie. the search begins in ignorance of Who Yahweh is.

The search method is not very clear.

I find it interesting when people expect reward with no effort and I suggest this is why personal revelation only comes after searching in most instances.

Is not just as strange to expect effort when there is no apparent reward?

I also find it interesting that many people will search for meaning in, or the beginning of, the Universe, but won't allow for a Creator.

Personally I think its more about who or what the creator is which is the biggest stumbling block. I find it hard to believe that there are many people to won't allow for a creator of some sort. Is there even an alternative?

 

[yesyoushould]

The search method is not very clear.

Kudos for not stopping searching for God.

Are you prepared to accept the truth? All truth is pure and good, without condemnation, without failure.

 

[Gumph]

The Bible says that God made all things. And that the "evil", that which kills, won't exist.

Is it ok to kill or let live?
Is it ok to curse or to hope well for another?
Is it ok to do both good and evil? How come?

You're losing me a bit here. I'm not to sure what you're getting at. But let me try and answer your questions as best as possible. I'm assuming they are directed at me.

It is ok to kill or let live, it really depends on the scenario.
Its probably better to hope well for another, but cursing may have a place depending on what you mean by cursing.
This is tougher. I suppose the answer is to do only good. The crux comes in what we end up considering as evil. I assume there is a grey area between the two as well.

 

[Gumph]

Kudos for not stopping searching for God.

Are you prepared to accept the truth? All truth is pure and good, without condemnation, without failure.

Searching may be a bit strong a word in hind sight. Making preliminary enquiries may paint a more accurate picture.

The truth bit sounds good, but its a bit vague.

 

[Gumph]

Be still and know that I am God.

If you want know him more you need to spend more time with him.

Hi Viren

I really struggle with these sort of answers, sorry. They are vague.

I thought he was every where. Have I not spent my whole life already with him?

 

[yesyoushould]

You're losing me a bit here. I'm not to sure what you're getting at. But let me try and answer your questions as best as possible. I'm assuming they are directed at me.

It is ok to kill or let live, it really depends on the scenario.
Its probably better to hope well for another, but cursing may have a place depending on what you mean by cursing.
This is tougher. I suppose the answer is to do only good. The crux comes in what we end up considering as evil. I assume there is a grey area between the two as well.

A "grey area" means a lack of understanding?

What is evil and what is good?

 

[yesyoushould]

Hi Viren

I really struggle with these sort of answers, sorry. They are vague.

I thought he was every where. Have I not spent my whole life already with him?

It just means, trust in the One that doesn't ever fail.

 

[food4thought]

He doesn't actually have to go as far as that. The revelation of a superior intelligence that is physically in front of me and communicating with me in an understandable way would be more enough to get that leap of faith going. Then I and many others could join the journey so many of you seem to be quite happy to be on.

As I said, if you simply see Him as a highly advanced intelligence, then He is not worthy of your worship, and you would likely end up rebelling against Him at some point if you see Him as less than He truly is. God is eternal, and looks at the long term big picture... what good is it to you if you accept Him now only to rebel later? The ultimate end is the same.

Yes, I may think the first appearance is a hoax, or a trick set up by my mates, but by the 2nd and 3rd times, I reckon I'd be ready to take the old leap of Faith.

Are you so sure about that? My experience is that I can always find a reason to disbelieve if given enough time to think about it... I must still receive Him in faith even though I have experienced communion and close fellowship with Him. He has given you evidence of Himself, and instead of reacting to that evidence positively you have chosen to disbelieve. If you respond in faith to the evidence He has given, He will meet you there and lead you further.

I hear you ask "who am I to demand such tests?". I don't demand, I'm asking nicely. I've also been lead to believe that this should not be too much trouble for him. I also think its fair to request a few minutes of his time in exchange for the rest of my life and perhaps eternity.

Through fulfilled prophecy He has presented you with evidence of one aspect of His Being: that He stands outside time. We have many fulfilled prophecies recorded for us, so that we can know that God knows the future. What do you think of that?

That is a huge problem for the logic based mind he gave me.

He also gave you a mind capable of exercising faith, you have simply chosen to emphasize a scientific mindset more. Faith does not ask you to set aside logic, it simply requires you to take a step beyond the empirical evidence, trusting that He is who He says He is.

 

[Hawkins]

Interesting. Why is there this requirement? Do you perhaps know why its necessary to make this leap of faith without being sure?

It is because human intelligence is low. They can't always figure out God's intention. God has thus demonstrated through Adam that faith and obedience are 2 basic requirements to be in Eden (and heaven as well).

You need a leap of faith not purely because the requirements mentioned above. You need a leap of faith because you educated to be secular. Possibly you are brainwashed to think that humans should only believe something which are evidenced to them.

However, in this reality you need faith to approach almost any truth. Basically, putting faith in what other humans said and wrote is the way for mankind to get to a truth.


For an example, even science relies on faith to convey a truth. 99% humans don't even bother to examine the evidence of, say, the existence of black holes, speed of light and etc. We rely on believing in the research results of the scientists.

We don't examine the evidence of daily news to get to know truths/events happening around the world. We simply believe what is said by a credible source (in the end it is the small bunch of human reporters).

History as whole is basically not verifiable, we believe with faith mostly what was written by the historians to get to the truths/events happened in the long past.

 

[faroukfarouk]

We have the record of His precious Word. If we value what He says, we need to dig into it.

 

[bling]

@Bling

I seem to be getting the message from you that when I am ready and really needing God, then he will appear to me.

Fair enough I suppose. Do I simply wait then?

You may not realize it, but you really need God right now! God is actually pressing against you and you are the one holding God back.

God is not going to “appear” to you since that would mean you do not have to exert “faith” in God, but you would wait on Him to make the first move. God is making His move already, but why should you except Him is the question?

Would you like unconditional type Love to be extended to you and also have that type of Love in you to extend to others?

 

[agua]

Is the extremely high failure rate, then not a concern?

There is no failure rate ie. everyone who truly seeks Yahweh finds Him.

The search method is not very clear.

As in any search it requires effort and diligence or as Yahweh suggests "with all of the heart, soul and mind ". This requires humans to use every available ability and Yahweh also suggests He only expects from a person according to their ability.

The first basic step for any person is to accept there is a creator, and ask him to reveal himself, and progress from there.

Is not just as strange to expect effort when there is no apparent reward?

The reward is apparent ie. finding the being who Created the Universe and getting to know Him.

Personally I think its more about who or what the creator is which is the biggest stumbling block. I find it hard to believe that there are many people to won't allow for a creator of some sort. Is there even an alternative?

Yes the search it is about finding who Yahweh is and it begins in searching for an anonymous Creator. The is no alternative and it requires great humilty to accept.

 

[oi_antz]

I have to admit the answer is not clear to me. Its one of the issues I have with the bible. Its all symbolism and "old" speak. I find it very difficult to always understand what its trying to say. I could be resisting it, but don't think I'm doing so on purpose.

I cannot find the link between the text saying there is a specific path to be followed and why the person giving the directions isn't standing on the road in front of me showing the way.

That is actually a different question than what I gave the verse for relevance to. It is best to be methodical. You asked:

It doesn't seem to explain why he doesn't make it absolutely clear that he is here, which would make us so much more prepared to try and enter the narrow gate.

I replied with this verse:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

.. which I have offered as an example of a point of view given by Jesus (assumed to agree totally with God), that there is a proper way to enter. If someone does not enter the proper way, Jesus describes them a thief and a robber. These words are quite descriptive. Can you think of why these words might apply in this context, to someone who wants to enter into the kingdom of God (or heaven), but without doing it the proper way? Why do you think that I would suggest for you to consider, that someone doing this is a thief and a robber, and do you think it is or is not necessarilly right?

But wow, it would make things so much clearer and simpler, we are after all physical creatures. Unfortunately your symbolism is losing me. I see no door, I hear no knocking.

I agree that we perceive physical things mostly. There is however non-physical perceptions too (inuition, suspicion, imagination etc). It might be simpler to perceive if it was a physical path and He was physically standing next to it. But it is a non-material path. The symbolism is not mine, it is Jesus', but I do understand it well enough. A door is a way to enter, and knocking is a way to inform someone that we desire them to open that door. What is the door blocking the entrance to? Also, you have said it would be simpler and clearer if it was a physical path or door. I agree somewhat with this, but I wonder why you are suggesting it would be better?

Notice now in this thread, I have asked five questions of you (one in the last post). These questions are designed to stimulate you to find answers to your questions. If you want to understand what you are asking, you will need to think about it. Answering the questions I have asked you will force you to think about it, and I expect that when you attempt to answer my questions, you will have your own questions answered (by your own comprehension and realisation, not by accepting my own assertion). Please let me know if that is not what you are seeking, because it would indicate that I might have misunderstood your purpose.

BTW, I agree with Bling in #52. You are encountering Him, and you are being forced to choose. Jesus was described as being the one who separates chaff from wheat (John the baptist said this, look it up).

If you are willing to hear some advice for a moment, I would like to offer this idea for your consideration: I think you should really take an objective (neither for or against) view of your current theological pursuit, just for a moment.

Can you notice that every decision you make (to agree with or discard a claimed truth) commits you to that way of thought? This is why Christians will describe someone hardening their hearts against Him. This is symbolic language again, which if you are not familiar with, may cause you to ask "is there proof that my blood pump organ becomes harder when I reject a Christian message?". If that is what happens when you read that manner of speech, perhaps you can see that there is some doubt (if you will), or alternative point of view of what a "heart" is (eg, "have a heart" describes compassion, and "my heart belongs to you" describes devotion and love etc).

Check out some of what Jesus has said about this hardening of the heart, the opposite effect, and how it can be achieved:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+13:13-15&version=NIV

.. Then, you might want to return from that objective vantage point and engage again in your own personal response to these things. I just thought it would probably help to observe from a point of view that is emotionally detached.

 

[Gumph]

A "grey area" means a lack of understanding?

What is evil and what is good?

It remains unclear to me how this line of questioning is getting any closer to "why God does not present himself more openly".

Good and "evil" is a whole separate debate. You get degrees of both, you get situations where doing a similar act could be good and others where it could be "evil".

 

[Gumph]

He has given you evidence of Himself, and instead of reacting to that evidence positively you have chosen to disbelieve. If you respond in faith to the evidence He has given, He will meet you there and lead you further.

I suppose it all comes down to what each of us considers to be adequate evidence.

Through fulfilled prophecy He has presented you with evidence of one aspect of His Being: that He stands outside time. We have many fulfilled prophecies recorded for us, so that we can know that God knows the future. What do you think of that?

Unfortunately they all seem to come from the same text source, which no matter how hard I try, I continue to doubt its accuracy and authenticity. It remains a major stumbling block in this enquiry, hence me need for something clearer and current.

He also gave you a mind capable of exercising faith, you have simply chosen to emphasize a scientific mindset more. Faith does not ask you to set aside logic, it simply requires you to take a step beyond the empirical evidence, trusting that He is who He says He is.

It does seem to be a very big step though.

 

[Gumph]

However, in this reality you need faith to approach almost any truth. Basically, putting faith in what other humans said and wrote is the way for mankind to get to a truth.

... and falsehoods.

For an example, even science relies on faith to convey a truth. 99% humans don't even bother to examine the evidence of, say, the existence of black holes, speed of light and etc. We rely on believing in the research results of the scientists.

We don't examine the evidence of daily news to get to know truths/events happening around the world. We simply believe what is said by a credible source (in the end it is the small bunch of human reporters).

History as whole is basically not verifiable, we believe with faith mostly what was written by the historians to get to the truths/events happened in the long past.

You are dead right, and this is precisely why I have an issue with accepting texts written by men that insist on influencing my life directly.

Black holes are interesting reading, but its irrelevant to me if it turns out to be true or not. Time and again, historians and reporters have been shown to be biased (intentionally or not). Its human nature. We are not reliable. Sometimes only a little inaccurate, other times very much so.

Religion differs from all these other examples by expecting me to change the way I live my life. In my mind that requires something special in the evidence. And here by "special" in mean "obvious".

 

[Gumph]

We have the record of His precious Word. If we value what He says, we need to dig into it.

Its this record which I see as shrouded in doubt, symbolism and ambiguity. How did you come to value what he says?

 

[Gumph]

You may not realize it, but you really need God right now! God is actually pressing against you and you are the one holding God back.

God is not going to “appear” to you since that would mean you do not have to exert “faith” in God, but you would wait on Him to make the first move. God is making His move already, but why should you except Him is the question?

Would you like unconditional type Love to be extended to you and also have that type of Love in you to extend to others?

It would be helpful to me if he was more obvious about it.

I'm still not sure I understand yet why faith is a necessary part of this whole process. I recall some answers earlier, but none resulted in a "light bulb" moment.

 

[Gumph]

There is no failure rate ie. everyone who truly seeks Yahweh finds Him.

I think it would be fair to judge the success rate on the number of people born, not just on those who claim to have truly searched for him.

The first basic step for any person is to accept there is a creator, and ask him to reveal himself, and progress from there.

I do agree with that .... and we're back at step one. Why such obscure "revelations", why not obvious to all?