Why does God not present himself to us more openly?

[Radagast]

Yeah I suppose so. It seems all the paths eventually lead back to the Bible, which is why so many debates rage on about its authenticity and interpretation.

I guess you're saying that God is satisfied that by telling the people through the Bible that he created the world and that he lives eternally is sufficient. There is no need to reinforce it further.

Its an answer, but leaves me a bit disappointed.

That, and the evidence of the Universe itself.

 

[Hawkins]

In another post, some of you were good enough to explain that the Bible is the only way in which one can find God.

I realise that you won't be wanting to second guess God's methods, but does the Bible give any reasons as to why he doesn't make his existence obvious to everyone, even us folk living all these years after Jesus died?

All humans are bound to the covenants which require faith for them to be saved. If God makes Himself more obviously it could only mean that humans may not have the faith specified in those covenants to be saved.

 

[Gumph]

The evidence of Yahweh in creation is ongoing and the person who searches for the being resonsible for the Universe will find Yahweh. ie.

Hmmm, I think it would be fairer to say some people do. Not everyone. There does not seem to be the guarantee implied by "will".

Creation makes Yahweh self evident.

Not to everyone. Don't many find that it makes some other deity evident?

As the search for Yahweh continues He reveals Himself through personal experiences and I see no reason He should constantly reveal Himself to people who don't want to know Him.

Why does he insist on personal experiences? The reason for constantly revealing himself is that it would then give something like 5 billion people a fairer opportunity to make the right decisions in their lives. Many of these don't even know he exists, so its unfair to say they don't want to know him, don't you think?

 

[Gumph]

It is an interesting response! If you have not done it before, I cannot imagine how it would be familiar. Jesus said "work hard to enter through the narrow gate, because wide is the road leading to destruction and many go that way" - what I see relevant to you here, make sure you settle for nothing but the real thing. That is, get to know Him and don't get distracted by theoretical knowledge.

Again, that seems to be saying to me that its a difficult path to follow and a very specific one. It doesn't seem to explain why he doesn't make it absolutely clear that he is here, which would make us so much more prepared to try and enter the narrow gate. Why is he physically not standing next to the road, showing us where that narrow gate is?

 

[Gumph]

... The problem is that the human race evolved out of animals and we still have the animal mind clouding our reason with its passions, appetites, emotions, and biases. So we are like 5 year olds trying to learn about calculus; most of it goes over our head until we have done the ground work and built up the capacity to understand the more complex matters.

Is that not a reason for him to make his presence more obvious?

Hence how the Gospel of John speaks of "light" coming into the world, and of the Logos.
... To see order in the universe is to see God, the Logos, at work.

Well, possibly, but its hardly obvious. Its open to other interpretations.

 

[Inkfingers]

Is that not a reason for him to make his presence more obvious?

It is obvious.

To make it more obvious would mean it no longer is what it is - ie: it would require God to not be God.

 

[Gumph]

That, and the evidence of the Universe itself.

I don't really see how that is an extra reason. It requires the Bible to make it evidence.

In any event it still isn't obviously showing that he is here, it merely shows that his work is here.

 

[Gumph]

All humans are bound to the covenants which require faith for them to be saved. If God makes Himself more obviously it could only mean that humans may not have the faith specified in those covenants to be saved.

Interesting. Why is there this requirement? Do you perhaps know why its necessary to make this leap of faith without being sure?

 

[Gumph]

It is obvious.

To make it more obvious would mean it no longer is what it is - ie: it would require God to not be God.

Would you mind explaining why another appearance from God would require him to not be God?

 

[Inkfingers]

Would you mind explaining why another appearance from God would require him to not be God?

God is spirit.

Spirit is subtle.

To cease to be subtle would be to cease to be spirit....and thus cease to be God.

For God to be as obvious as the Laptop/PC infront of you, He would have to cease to be God. His nature isn't physical, so it well never be as obvious as physical things. We have to discover him with our minds. We have to be calm ("be still and know...") and rise above the physical ("the carnal....") and recognise spirit, which is a subtle thing when compared to crude matter.

But its there. HE's there. Behind every event. The subtle power. Logos. Making, shaping, and directing all. Be calm. Restful. See the connections behind all. The power behind all. The mind behind all. Shaping and directing it as one. See it in and behind the order.

 

[Gumph]

Does that mean he can't become more obvious, or did I get that wrong?

 

[Inkfingers]

Does that mean he can't become more obvious, or did I get that wrong?

God cannot become more obvious without ceasing to be God.

God is subtle by nature.

If He ceases to be subtle He ceases to be God.

 

[food4thought]

Hi Gumph. I'm going to come at this from a different angle, if you don't mind.

In what way could God reveal Himself to you so that you would know and believe that He is truly the eternal, uncreated Creator of all things, and not some lesser being such as a highly evolved alien intelligence simply pretending to be God? He could reveal Himself in any number of ways, but none of these ways could empirically prove to you that He is the eternal, uncreated Creator of all things, and thus worthy of our worship. He could only empirically prove to you that He is infinitely greater than we are, and perhaps over time convince you that He was incredibly knowledgeable and wise. The truth is, we MUST receive Him as who He is by faith. Anything less than accepting Him as truly God opens the door for us to eventually rebel against Him, because He isn't really God, just a higher intelligence, and what right does He have to rule us other than the threat of force? That is not love, that is fear. The whole object of creation is to create us as beings capable of the highest form of relationship, agape love*. To go through the whole process, allowing all this horror of sin, rebellion, and death to happen, and then to end up with beings that relate to Him out of fear instead of agape love would be failure. God is not in the habit of failing lol.

Once you understand that God must be received in faith, not through empirical proof, you can see that the evidence that He has given of Himself is sufficient for those who want Him to come to faith in Him, but not sufficient for those who do not truly believe in Him, or even want Him, to be forced to serve Him out of fear.

*agape love: giving unselfishly out of all you are and all you have for the ultimate good of the one loved.

Hope this helps.

 

[oi_antz]

Let me say first, that absolute assumptions are being made in post 32 and 15, that are not necessarilly true. It does seem possible for these statements to be false. What those statements demonstrate is conclusions of the people who have made them, which are declarations of their refusal or otherwise inability to accept a different point of view. Just saying, be a bit skeptical, test everything and hold on to what is good. I don't want to get into a debate about those things though. You and I are making good progress at this time, I rather want to see how far we can go with that.

Again, that seems to be saying to me that its a difficult path to follow and a very specific one.

I had confused and combined two similar statements, so it is best to look at the exact statements now that you are questioning what I said. Matthew 9:13,14 and Luke 13:22-27.

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

This statement is given in a list of other statements, as Jesus is observed to be making a bunch of statements giving advice. This is not given in the context of someone having a conversation with Him. So, looking at this statement in isolation, we can see that many people choose to "enter" through the wide gate, but few "find" the narrow gate. My immediate question, is "why"? You seem to have already assumed the answer to this question, is that God does not make Himself obvious to everyone. That doesn't explain it, because some people do find the narrow gate, and seemingly God is often enough no more obvious to them. Then my assumption is that those who do find the narrow gate are different to those who entered through the wide gate.

What is that difference between those who do enter through the narrow gate and those who don't?

22 Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’

26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

So this is a different situation than that presented in Matthew, where Jesus is directly answering someone's question. Again, He has used the image "narrow" door, but He is not speaking about the wide gate "alternative" path that most people choose. Notice here, He has used the words "make every effort" (I said "work hard" - probably I remember this from a different translation), where He did not say this in the previous statement. Also you can see that here He is saying that many people try to enter, but they are not able to. He did not say that in the previous statement. That might contribute to your answer of my question above:

What is that difference between those who do enter through the narrow door and those who don't?

It doesn't seem to explain why he doesn't make it absolutely clear that he is here, which would make us so much more prepared to try and enter the narrow gate.

I would refer again to John 10:1, since the answer seems quite clear there. Are you sure you don't see the answer there? That would surprise me, I expect actually that a 6 year old would understand it intuitively, and that would prompt me to investigate whether you are resisting it. Maybe just think about it a bit, then let me know why you are not seeing how it answers this question. Maybe you are so foreign to the concepts of Christianity that some other fundamental understanding is required, and we should be able to address that quickly. I don't know your history either, I have just met you, though you seem like a familiar person, but the level of knowledge you are showing us does not correspond to anyone I am thinking of. Maybe you just have a similar attitude and manner of speech.

Why is he physically not standing next to the road, showing us where that narrow gate is?

I don't think a physical appearance is always necessary to be noticed. I would rather ask, since He claims to "stand at the door and knock", why are you not opening the door to Him? (Some do. Often it is a difficult decision. You probably should seek to understand their various experiences of accepting Him, if you are interested).

 

[TheBarrd]

Ask and it shall be given unto thee.
See and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened unto thee.

 

[agua]

Hmmm, I think it would be fairer to say some people do. Not everyone. There does not seem to be the guarantee implied by "will".

Yahweh says everyone who truly seeks Him will find him ie. guaranteed.

Not to everyone. Don't many find that it makes some other deity evident?

There's only One True God and if any human searches for Him they will find Yahweh. ie. the search begins in ignorance of Who Yahweh is.

Why does he insist on personal experiences? The reason for constantly revealing himself is that it would then give something like 5 billion people a fairer opportunity to make the right decisions in their lives. Many of these don't even know he exists, so its unfair to say they don't want to know him, don't you think?

Every human has the same witness of Yahweh's presence through creation/the Universe. If people pursue the Creator they will be rewarded with revelation accordingly. I find it interesting when people expect reward with no effort and I suggest this is why personal revelation only comes after searching in most instances. I also find it interesting that many people will search for meaning in, or the beginning of, the Universe, but won't allow for a Creator.

 

[Viren]

Be still and know that I am God.

If you want know him more you need to spend more time with him.

 

[Gumph]

Thank you for your new angle. It makes a nice change. I feel as though we're going round in circles a bit at the moment.

In what way could God reveal Himself to you so that you would know and believe that He is truly the eternal, uncreated Creator of all things, and not some lesser being such as a highly evolved alien intelligence simply pretending to be God?

He doesn't actually have to go as far as that. The revelation of a superior intelligence that is physically in front of me and communicating with me in an understandable way would be more enough to get that leap of faith going. Then I and many others could join the journey so many of you seem to be quite happy to be on.

Yes, I may think the first appearance is a hoax, or a trick set up by my mates, but by the 2nd and 3rd times, I reckon I'd be ready to take the old leap of Faith.

I hear you ask "who am I to demand such tests?". I don't demand, I'm asking nicely. I've also been lead to believe that this should not be too much trouble for him. I also think its fair to request a few minutes of his time in exchange for the rest of my life and perhaps eternity.

Oh dear, I'm getting carried away again I think.

Once you understand that God must be received in faith, not through empirical proof,

That is a huge problem for the logic based mind he gave me.

 

[Gumph]

I would refer again to John 10:1, since the answer seems quite clear there. Are you sure you don't see the answer there? That would surprise me, I expect actually that a 6 year old would understand it intuitively, and that would prompt me to investigate whether you are resisting it. Maybe just think about it a bit, then let me know why you are not seeing how it answers this question. Maybe you are so foreign to the concepts of Christianity that some other fundamental understanding is required, and we should be able to address that quickly.

I have to admit the answer is not clear to me. Its one of the issues I have with the bible. Its all symbolism and "old" speak. I find it very difficult to always understand what its trying to say. I could be resisting it, but don't think I'm doing so on purpose.

I cannot find the link between the text saying there is a specific path to be followed and why the person giving the directions isn't standing on the road in front of me showing the way.

I don't think a physical appearance is always necessary to be noticed. I would rather ask, since He claims to "stand at the door and knock", why are you not opening the door to Him? (Some do. Often it is a difficult decision. You probably should seek to understand their various experiences of accepting Him, if you are interested).

But wow, it would make things so much clearer and simpler, we are after all physical creatures. Unfortunately your symbolism is losing me. I see no door, I hear no knocking.

 

[Gumph]

Ask and it shall be given unto thee.
See and ye shall find.
Knock and the door shall be opened unto thee.

I am asking, otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum. I've been told to be more sincere, but unfortunately no one can give me exact instructions on that.

I'm looking, but can't find anything yet.

As before, the symbolism is an issue. How do I knock on a door I can't see or feel?