• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why does God need to torture?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
62
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Maybe we can get some different responces and more people involved, rather that just debate UR.

Why does God need to torture people for eternity?

What is this place that unbelievers are destined for, that Christians are trying (or supposed to be trying) so desperately to save people from? Whatever it is, God died so I wouldn’t have to go there.

Hell, God's eternal torture chamber, where the greater part of all humanity will spend eternity. What is the purpose of this place? Well, punishment, Christians tell us. But punishment for what purpose? Since there is no remedial value to hell, no chance of learning your lesson and getting let out, what good does the punishment do?

Even the most cruel human torturers usually have a reason for their torture. Make the appropriate confessions, tell them what they want to know, and the torture will usually stop. Or at the very least, you can eventually die. But Christians make God out to be the very worst kind of torturer

As a Christian, I was always uncomfortable with this. In an attempt to explain hell while leaving God's reputation for fairness intact, I deferred to a more C.S. Lewis-type explanation. Rather than having God create a place like Hell and sending people there, I saw Hell more as a result of rejecting God. It was the ultimate "you got what you asked for." God was saying, "You really don't want me around? Fine. I'll leave." And the result was hell, the absence of everything good, which vanished when God did.
But then traditional christianity teaches God is omnipresent..all places at all times...how can he be that and not be in hell.

In America we pride ourselves in prohibiting something called "cruel and unusual punishment." We look aghast at dictatorial regimes that torture its prisoners and dissidents. Yet even the worst atrocities committed under the cruelest tyrants of this world are nothing when compared to what Christians say God has in store for us. A poignant way to illustrate this is to look at what Christians believe about Jews, especially Jews that were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. Although Christians generally do not discuss this, it is what they must believe, for it is built into their system of "divine justice."

Christians define as hell bound anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. This includes just about all practicing Jews. So imagine this scenario: as the millions of Jews slaughtered in Hitler's death camps passed into the afterlife, they awoke to find themselves burning in hell. Not only was there a lack of food there, there was no food. Not only was there poor drinking water, there was no water. Not only was there pain, there was the most intense pain imaginable, and it was unrelenting. Sort of like being tossed into the ovens of Auschwitz alive over and over. And not only did this suffering just seem like it would never end, it really never would.

Most of these Jews certainly were praying to God, loved him, cherished
the moment they were released from the pain, Certainly at nights you could hear the cries and pleas to God as they suffered so. Just imagine how they will feel when they face the God they loved and find he is worse than Hitler.

Simply what is it in God's Character the need to torture forever...or for you moderates,,seperate himself forever from the mass of his creation.
 

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
First, the bible doesn't say that those in hell are tortured. That is a misreading, or misinterpretation, of the text. People in hell are tormented, and it is an eternal punishment, overseen by Jesus Christ Himself, who is Lord even of Hell.

Second, the extent of punishment is in direct correlation to whom was offended. If I murder an ant, nothing happens. If I murder a human, I am sentenced to death or life n prison. If I offend an eternal God, I am punished eternally.

It is awesome, however, that God sent His Son to live the life I could not live and die the death I deserve to die. He made a provision for me so that I would not have to suffer eternal torment in hell, but spend a wonderful eternity with Jesus forever.
 
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why does God 'need' sacrifice/blood to atone for sin ?

Its not about what God 'needs'....its about what God has DONE and SAID.
And in that He has SAID that there are 2 ETERNAL outcomes for man..one of life, one of condemnation.

I see more human reasoning in the OP that doesnt seem to be able to handle GODS truth.

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.

(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)


eternal
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.
 
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again,

The question is, even if you believe in eternal torture, why does God need
to eternally torture most of his creation?

What does he get out of it?

Again..

Why does God 'need' sacrifice/blood to atone for sin ?

Its not about what God 'needs'....its about what God has DONE and SAID.

And in that He has SAID that there are 2 ETERNAL outcomes for man..one of life, one of condemnation.


.
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,056
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,962,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
When you see the references of fire in regards to hell, it is referring to judgment and also to the intensity of the punishment.

Matthew 8:12 talks about being cast into the outer darkness. If it was literal fire, it wouldn't be dark.
 
Upvote 0

HuntingMan

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,341
143
59
✟9,310.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When you see the references of fire in regards to hell, it is referring to judgment and also to the intensity of the punishment.

Matthew 8:12 talks about being cast into the outer darkness. If it was literal fire, it wouldn't be dark.
*IF* it is literal fire as WE understand it, hammster.
I dont think anyone here has ever stated that eternal fire is the exactly the same as a burning fireplace. I wouldnt even think that would be the case if it was to be 'eternal'.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
35,429
4,292
On the bus to Heaven
✟87,984.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God is loving, kind and merciful, but He is first and foremost a holy and righteous God. So holy is He, in fact, that He cannot tolerate sin. He is a God whose anger burns against the wicked and those who disobey Him (Isaiah 5:25; Hosea 8:5; Zechariah 10:3). He is not only a loving God, He is love itself, however, the Bible tells us that God hates all sins (Proverbs 6:16-19). God is merciful, but there are limits to His mercy. “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon” (Isaiah 55:6-7).

Man is corrupted by sin and that sin is always directly against God. For example, when David sinned by committing adultery with Bathsheba and having Uriah murdered, his prayer was right on: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). Since David had sinned against Bathsheba and Uriah, why did he claim to have only sinned against God? David understood that all sin is ultimately against God. God is an eternal and infinite Being (Psalm 90:2). As a result, all sin requires an eternal punishment. God’s holy, perfect and infinite character has been offended by our sin, and although to our finite minds our sin is limited in time, to God, who is outside of time, the sin He hates goes on and on. Our sin is continually before Him and must be continually punished in order to satisfy His holy justice.

Hey, but guess what? God is so loving that He sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins by dying on the cross for us. Jesus’ death was an infinite death because He is the infinite God/man, paying our infinite sin debt, so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we have to do is accept His free gift of salvation. Now, that is love.:thumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

Soul_Golem

Sentient Believer
Jun 22, 2005
163
11
53
Cincinnati
✟22,864.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
The Bible does not anywhere say that God tortures. He judges and sends off to eternal punishment. The only way to escape eternal punishment is through salvation. According to Peter's vision of Hell, punishment (or torture) is part of being present in Hell, and I believe it is something the Devil does, not God. God judges and is eager to forgive, but the Devil (who wants to be God) will never forgive and has an eternity to do play God in Hell. God's wrath is condemnation. The Devil's wrath is that you and me and any of us are just a bunch of unruly brats that God created, not at all the Biblical teaching that we are God's children and God loves us.
 
Upvote 0

jckstraw72

Doin' that whole Orthodox thing
Dec 9, 2005
10,160
1,145
41
South Canaan, PA
Visit site
✟79,442.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
man chooses to punish himself by rejecting God. just as fire hardens clay and melts butter, so the fire of God's love effects us differently depending on how we are. God loves all equally but to some that is torturous, but God is not proactively torturing anyone.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bellicus
Upvote 0

Garyzenuf

Socialism is lovely.
Aug 17, 2008
1,170
97
67
White Rock, Canada
✟24,357.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-NDP
Just imagine how they will feel when they face the God they loved and find he is worse than Hitler.

Or...Hitler has a last day shot of sanity, and gives his life (whats left of it ) to Jesus? The Jews on the other hand, as far as I know don't believe in Jesus as messiah, and are (according to some Christians) going to hell anyways. So could you end up with Hitler in heaven, and the Jews he murdered in Hell?

Also, I seem to remember something in the bible about a viewing spot for those who wish to watch people suffering in Hell for eternity? I'm sure I got that wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Poverello78

Regular Member
Jan 27, 2008
398
28
46
Newbury Park, CA
✟15,704.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Since I can't say it better myself (although I'm happy to expound)...

“To enter heaven is to become more human than you ever succeeded being in earth; to enter hell, is to be banished from humanity. What is cast (or casts itself) into hell is not a man: it is ‘remains.’ To be a complete man means to have the passions obedient to the will and the will offered to God: to have been a man--to be an ex-man or ‘damned ghost’--would presumably mean to consist of a will utterly centered in it's self and passions utterly uncontrolled by the will." - C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

God does not torture us; We torture ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
62
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
When you see the references of fire in regards to hell, it is referring to judgment and also to the intensity of the punishment.

Matthew 8:12 talks about being cast into the outer darkness. If it was literal fire, it wouldn't be dark.


It's not a literal fire at all, I agree. Is is God speaking of refinement. All through the bible God describes and uses as by fire as a means to refine.
Even sulfer, which is commonly used with fire, was a purifying agent.

The fire is simply refining, because our God is a consuming fire..a refining God, not an agent of torture
 
Upvote 0

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
62
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
man chooses to punish himself by rejecting God. just as fire hardens clay and melts butter, so the fire of God's love effects us differently depending on how we are. God loves all equally but to some that is torturous, but God is not proactively torturing anyone.

Most men to not reject God, through many human factors, culture, ect..men view God differently. However, as they may accept God, love him, worship him, they may not accept Christ as we expect...such as the millions of Jews Hitler killed. I assure you they were praying in their fearful nights, but if traditional christianity is right, they will be tortured eternally
for not accepting Christ.

Not to mention, throughout history the majority of man has never heard the gospel, even through they may have believe in God in some way, such as the Indians calling him the Great Spirit..However, they didn't have Jesus Christ or the gospel...So either they burn in hell or they are saved through some means.

But that's the problem,,,Christ made it clear without doubt he is the only way. Man can create many doctrines, good works, age of accountability,
ect.. to find another way for those that haven't heard. But then that means Christ is not the only way..so there was really no need for the cross.

So we must either say all of these go to hell for not hearing or understanding..or they are saved by Christ, even though they have never heard.......or accept traditional christianitys concept that there is actually many ways into heaven other than Christ.

If you believe the bible...then Christ is the only way and the cross will reconcile all men back unto the father. The LOF certainly will be a process to bring those many back to Christ, for some it will be terrible, for others,
a refinement and time to come to the knowledge of the truth.

or else just be thrown into hell...just out of bad luck.
 
Upvote 0

Armistead

Veteran
Aug 11, 2007
1,852
91
62
NC
✟2,439.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
First, the bible doesn't say that those in hell are tortured. That is a misreading, or misinterpretation, of the text. People in hell are tormented, and it is an eternal punishment, overseen by Jesus Christ Himself, who is Lord even of Hell.

Second, the extent of punishment is in direct correlation to whom was offended. If I murder an ant, nothing happens. If I murder a human, I am sentenced to death or life n prison. If I offend an eternal God, I am punished eternally.

It is awesome, however, that God sent His Son to live the life I could not live and die the death I deserve to die. He made a provision for me so that I would not have to suffer eternal torment in hell, but spend a wonderful eternity with Jesus forever.


I'm afraid your a little behind the learning curve to where we are in the discussion, but thanks for adding your thoughts. It might help if you get involved in one of the many UR threads.
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,106
114,202
✟1,378,034.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Maybe we can get some different responces and more people involved, rather that just debate UR.

Why does God need to torture people for eternity?

What is this place that unbelievers are destined for, that Christians are trying (or supposed to be trying) so desperately to save people from? Whatever it is, God died so I wouldn’t have to go there.

Hell, God's eternal torture chamber, where the greater part of all humanity will spend eternity. What is the purpose of this place? Well, punishment, Christians tell us. But punishment for what purpose? Since there is no remedial value to hell, no chance of learning your lesson and getting let out, what good does the punishment do?

Even the most cruel human torturers usually have a reason for their torture. Make the appropriate confessions, tell them what they want to know, and the torture will usually stop. Or at the very least, you can eventually die. But Christians make God out to be the very worst kind of torturer

As a Christian, I was always uncomfortable with this. In an attempt to explain hell while leaving God's reputation for fairness intact, I deferred to a more C.S. Lewis-type explanation. Rather than having God create a place like Hell and sending people there, I saw Hell more as a result of rejecting God. It was the ultimate "you got what you asked for." God was saying, "You really don't want me around? Fine. I'll leave." And the result was hell, the absence of everything good, which vanished when God did.
But then traditional christianity teaches God is omnipresent..all places at all times...how can he be that and not be in hell.

In America we pride ourselves in prohibiting something called "cruel and unusual punishment." We look aghast at dictatorial regimes that torture its prisoners and dissidents. Yet even the worst atrocities committed under the cruelest tyrants of this world are nothing when compared to what Christians say God has in store for us. A poignant way to illustrate this is to look at what Christians believe about Jews, especially Jews that were imprisoned in Nazi concentration camps. Although Christians generally do not discuss this, it is what they must believe, for it is built into their system of "divine justice."

Christians define as hell bound anyone who does not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. This includes just about all practicing Jews. So imagine this scenario: as the millions of Jews slaughtered in Hitler's death camps passed into the afterlife, they awoke to find themselves burning in hell. Not only was there a lack of food there, there was no food. Not only was there poor drinking water, there was no water. Not only was there pain, there was the most intense pain imaginable, and it was unrelenting. Sort of like being tossed into the ovens of Auschwitz alive over and over. And not only did this suffering just seem like it would never end, it really never would.

Most of these Jews certainly were praying to God, loved him, cherished
the moment they were released from the pain, Certainly at nights you could hear the cries and pleas to God as they suffered so. Just imagine how they will feel when they face the God they loved and find he is worse than Hitler.

Simply what is it in God's Character the need to torture forever...or for you moderates,,seperate himself forever from the mass of his creation.

God does not torture anyone. He is removed from the picture. Hell is the absence of God.
 
Upvote 0

Tavita

beside quiet waters He restores my soul..
Sep 20, 2004
6,084
247
Singleton NSW
✟7,581.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Politics
AU-Liberals
God does not torture anyone. He is removed from the picture. Hell is the absence of God.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol (hell), behold, thou art there.

Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Site Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
249,106
114,202
✟1,378,034.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Originally Posted by brinny
God does not torture anyone. He is removed from the picture. Hell is the absence of God.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in Sheol (hell), behold, thou art there.

Rev 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Hell, what is to come after the Judgement is the absence of God. It is reserved for the rebellious ones...

not sure what your point is in the quotes you posted.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.