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Why does God leave no tracks?

Nihilist Virus

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Before you lie too much. Why don't you just show us how science can determine what an ancient figure has said and done?

How someone 2000 years ago did and said be example by science.

Would you briefly describe?

What can be examined is that large scale activities such as a war can be with a scene preserved by a fluke. An example is that a city was buried by an accidental earthquake that this left certain trace for you to examine what could possibly happened during that time. But still first of all, you need to base on a second handed document to begin with. A second handed document suspected to be with contents written down that time for you to examine in the preserved scene to make a guess at best of what could possibly happened.

Let me ask you this question, how many war scenes have ever occurred in human history and how many spots have left trails for you to examine using your science?

And what's all this do with the record accounts of writing about what was said and done by an ancient figure? Do you mean that a preserved spot has recorded down his voice?

You are completely out of reality and being fed up with the scientific plague. That's what it is.

Hi, butting in here, yes I know... but he seemed to quite clearly be indicating that the historical method would be used to determine if someone had said something. You even quoted him as saying such, I did not even look at what he said in its original post. You then go on to ask, "Before you lie too much. Why don't you just show us how science can determine what an ancient figure has said and done? How someone 2000 years ago did and said be example by science. Would you briefly describe?" You then go on to say that he is completely out of reality and suggest that his belief in science is the reason why.

Eyebrow raising, to say the least.
 
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Hawkins

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Hi, butting in here, yes I know... but he seemed to quite clearly be indicating that the historical method would be used to determine if someone had said something. You even quoted him as saying such, I did not even look at what he said in its original post. You then go on to ask, "Before you lie too much. Why don't you just show us how science can determine what an ancient figure has said and done? How someone 2000 years ago did and said be example by science. Would you briefly describe?" You then go on to say that he is completely out of reality and suggest that his belief in science is the reason why.

Eyebrow raising, to say the least.

Hmm. so what method according to your understanding of his words that can be used to examine what someone said 2000 years ago?

You sound as if he actually makes some sense to you that you understand his secret method of examining humans sayings occurred 2000 years ago?
 
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Hawkins

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If all you have as an argument is an insult, then we have nothing to discuss.

It's not about insult, not to an individual at least. It's quite common that atheists like you argue that way. I am directing my words to them just to try to make a point.

The approach is truly simple in regards to the nature of what history is.

Jewish historian Josephus ever wrote a big book(s) referred to as the Josephus' works. Now please show us which book/chapter/session of his writings are supported by the scientific methods you are trying to describe.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Hmm. so what method according to your understanding of his words that can be used to examine what someone said 2000 years ago?

You sound as if he actually makes some sense to you that you understand his secret method of examining humans sayings occurred 2000 years ago?

Sounds like you're saying we cannot determine such things...? But you are a Christian. So how do you know Jesus said any of what he is credited with having said?
 
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Hawkins

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Sounds like you're saying we cannot determine such things...? But you are a Christian. So how do you know Jesus said any of what he is credited with having said?

Humans rely on witnessing instead of evidence to get to a truth.

Now please answer this question, "what evidence do you have that earth is actually revolving around that sun"? and "what evidence do you have that black holes exist?"

Show us!!!
 
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Xalith

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You see, the key element of design is redesign. We did not go from the first telephone to the modern cell phone by gradually modifying the old one.

But yet, that's what the theory of evolution teaches! You started with a "Simple Cell" (lel, I still laugh at that term), and add time and you eventually get intelligent animals. Just... only ONE intelligent species, mind you. Just one.

We have at several points completely redesigned it from scratch. Where do we see that in the animal kingdom?

We see it everywhere in the animal kingdom. Can you honestly tell me that you see Bird DNA in a human? Do you see reptile DNA in a human? Do you see the genetic code gills in a bird? Of course not.

If Evolution was really about "survival of the fittest" and everything trying to evolve to its maximum efficiency/strength/etc, then where did the diversity come from? Why do we have millions of species that fit together like a ridiculously complex jigsaw puzzle? Take away a few of those species (or worse, add a new one in) and you get utter chaos.

Nature works perfectly until man tries to screw with it.

Could you tell me why you have instructions in the cells of your toenails that describe how to create an eye? It's because the vast majority of life on earth up to this point has been single-celled life, and in a single-celled organism it is necessary to copy all DNA at once.

An egg and a sperm are both single cells that come together to make the offspring. All of the DNA for the entire body is encoded in these cells, and when these cells multiply, they keep that information.

The procedure by which DNA is copied has been refined through processes of evolution over trillions of generations

[Citation Needed]

to the point that it cannot start over from scratch like we did with the telephone.

It doesn't need to start over from scratch (not yet, anyways.....)

We are stuck with what we have. If God was an intelligent designer, why did he create this fundamental process of life to be so inefficient in multi-cellular organisms?

They are perfectly efficient, they do exactly as He intends them to do. However, certain men think they know better than God and try to manipulate things according to how they think it should be done.

How many artificial foods and food additives do we have now, that have been proven unsafe and unhealthy? How many times have deadly pharmaceuticals been pulled from the shelves because of the fact it kills people? Whenever we men try to screw with what God created, it usually ends up in disaster.

Science does not invent fictions.

Right. So, this "Simple Cell" thing... do go on and tell me how the Simple Cell spring into being when it is made of thousands of parts that must exist simultaneously or the whole thing doesn't work.

It does not make claims that it cannot support without concrete evidence.

I've yet to see the "evidence" behind the origin of life. You ask anybody that and they'll slap the Theory of Evolution in your face, which has quite a few holes in it. I'm sorry but no scientist has ever proven (with concrete evidence) that a bunch of amino acids in a goop can form a living cell with machine-like parts and a digital data structure that can replicate itself quickly.

No scientist has ever created life from unliving material to date.

If scientists know how life got started... then why can't we get a single living cell to work, not even in controlled situations in a laboratory, knowing exactly what it should look like?

If we can't do it in a laboratory with expensive machinery, how do you expect me to believe that this "just happened" out in the wild "billions" of years ago?
 
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Nihilist Virus

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But yet, that's what the theory of evolution teaches! You started with a "Simple Cell" (lel, I still laugh at that term), and add time and you eventually get intelligent animals. Just... only ONE intelligent species, mind you. Just one.

Actually there were several groups of hominids, all of which were capable of crafting tools, but the others went extinct.


We see it everywhere in the animal kingdom. Can you honestly tell me that you see Bird DNA in a human? Do you see reptile DNA in a human? Do you see the genetic code gills in a bird? Of course not.

The manner in which you are phrasing everything indicates you have no understanding of what evolutionary theory is or what DNA actually is/does.


If Evolution was really about "survival of the fittest" and everything trying to evolve to its maximum efficiency/strength/etc, then where did the diversity come from? Why do we have millions of species that fit together like a ridiculously complex jigsaw puzzle? Take away a few of those species (or worse, add a new one in) and you get utter chaos.

Good question. How did we get all this diversity? If only there was some book about the origin of species... preferably one that was written so long ago that it would be public domain and hence free to read online. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

Nature works perfectly until man tries to screw with it.

Never heard of the bacteria that evolved to digest nylon? We were screwing with their environment and they're just fine.

Regardless, though, I'm not sure what this statement of yours is even trying to indicate.



An egg and a sperm are both single cells that come together to make the offspring. All of the DNA for the entire body is encoded in these cells, and when these cells multiply, they keep that information.

Yes I learned about the birds and the bees.


[Citation Needed]

Lol um, you reject evolution, so why are you wanting me to cite an evolutionist?



It doesn't need to start over from scratch (not yet, anyways.....)

You're right, it doesn't have to. Clearly it works as is. But if you were INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNING it, then you wouldn't make it this way.

There are people who live in broken down buses. That doesn't mean the bus was designed to be a home.


They are perfectly efficient, they do exactly as He intends them to do. However, certain men think they know better than God and try to manipulate things according to how they think it should be done.

Do you even know what perfect efficiency is? It means no effort going to waste. I guess according to you, no work is done when DNA is duplicated. Therefore why do you contest abiogenesis?

How many artificial foods and food additives do we have now, that have been proven unsafe and unhealthy? How many times have deadly pharmaceuticals been pulled from the shelves because of the fact it kills people? Whenever we men try to screw with what God created, it usually ends up in disaster.

I don't recall ever endorsing artificial foods here or anywhere.

Right. So, this "Simple Cell" thing... do go on and tell me how the Simple Cell spring into being when it is made of thousands of parts that must exist simultaneously or the whole thing doesn't work.

When did I say the cell is simple? Bacteria have evolved for several billions of years, so I don't know why you think they would be simple in my worldview. They are actually more highly evolved than humans, if it's even proper to use that terminology.

But yes, the first cell probably was simple. We have a working model on how they came about.

Not sure if you're aware but we find amino acids on comets.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17628-found-first-amino-acid-on-a-comet/

There is already debate over whether or not viruses are considered living organisms. They do evolve, though, and the simplest ones we have today are descended from trillions of generations, so they are highly evolved. The entire structure of a virus is basically just coarse genetic material and a rudimentary means of delivering it into a host. The first living thing obviously would not be a parasite, nor would it even have the capsule around the genetic material. It would just be a self-replicating molecule.


I've yet to see the "evidence" behind the origin of life. You ask anybody that and they'll slap the Theory of Evolution in your face, which has quite a few holes in it. I'm sorry but no scientist has ever proven (with concrete evidence) that a bunch of amino acids in a goop can form a living cell with machine-like parts and a digital data structure that can replicate itself quickly.

I agree with your skepticism here. We should be able to reproduce it, or at least produce some scenario that is consistent with early earth conditions and show that it can bring about a self-replicating molecule. But none of this has anything to do with evolution. Evolution is an established scientific fact and it deals with the origin of species, not the origin of life. Evolution doesn't talk about abiogenesis any more than geology talks about black holes. You don't even know what you're talking about and yet you reject good science in favor of the scribblings of men who clearly had no idea how biology works (Genesis 30:37-39).

No scientist has ever created life from unliving material to date.

Again, you can reject abiogenesis because of this, but rejecting evolution is completely unfounded.

If scientists know how life got started... then why can't we get a single living cell to work, not even in controlled situations in a laboratory, knowing exactly what it should look like?

If we can't do it in a laboratory with expensive machinery, how do you expect me to believe that this "just happened" out in the wild "billions" of years ago?

What I expect you to do is understand that scientists are working on it, and to do your part you can pick up a book on evolution, learn what it is, and catch up with the rest of us.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Humans rely on witnessing instead of evidence to get to a truth.

Now please answer this question, "what evidence do you have that earth is actually revolving around that sun"? and "what evidence do you have that black holes exist?"

Show us!!!

So you believe Jesus said what he said because it was written down 40 years later?
 
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Xalith

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Actually there were several groups of hominids, all of which were capable of crafting tools, but the others went extinct.

I thought about this after I left for work today. Yeah, there was another "race" of hominids: the giants referred to in the Bible. Most were wiped out by the Flood, the rest were wiped out by Joshua and his descendants in their conquest of the land of Canaan. You will also find legends of these giant people (and some claims that bones have been found) in North America, but they eventually died out too (perhaps God had a hand in that too?).

Also, if you compare, say, a skeleton of your typical Russian to a skeleton of your typical Japanese person, I'm sure the severe size/weight difference. Also, some of the nordic peoples way back when compared to the Japanese today.

Just how far can a species be varied and still be considered the same species? We lump everybody today into the "homo sapiens" label (oh, could you imagine the PC outrage if we ever invented another name to refer to an ethnic group as another subspecies, lol...) but yet there's a LOT of diversity in there.

But it seems to me that all of the other labels they've slapped on hominids (erectus, etc) they all look very similar in size, shape, and functionality of their bodies. Their skulls are the main points of where they differ, and I just love the artists' rendition when they make their bodies hairy all over like they're some kind of halfway point between apes and sapiens, lol. I'm sure they knew exactly how hairy these... hominids were... from their skeletons, lol. How do they know they weren't as smooth-skinned as your average hairy live-in-mother's-basement-gamer-cheetos/mountain dew-junkie? (no offense to gamers here, but you know the stereotype)

The manner in which you are phrasing everything indicates you have no understanding of what evolutionary theory is or what DNA actually is/does.

I was being a bit facetious. I know what DNA does.

Good question. How did we get all this diversity? If only there was some book about the origin of species... preferably one that was written so long ago that it would be public domain and hence free to read online. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

Again, you're referring to evolutionists who all stem from the same basic concept: Nothing+Time=Everything. It all assumes that all of this had simply miraculous chances of survival and everything working out in such a way that a perfect ecosystem "evolved", and that only one main species genus (homo) ever developed intelligence, yet intelligence is the pinnacle of evolution.

Also, from the above quoted block, you mentioned "capable of using tools". Well... there's a lot of animals today that "use tools". Primates use tools. Monkeys will crack stuff open with rocks, and we've even taught monkeys how to roast marshmallows. I suppose you're gonna call them "intelligent" (I suppose sapient would be a better word to use..) now, too? How about beavers? Or bees? Bees build elaborate structures, perhaps even more elaborate than we can build ours.

Birds can navigate miles and they have the perfect instinct to know exactly how much to eat, the exact heading to go, and the exact flight mechanisms to use to make sure they will make their destination. Do you think this was somehow passed down over generations? What about the generations that failed to get it right? There had to be some, right? Or did somehow these birds magically learn how to do this? lol.

Never heard of the bacteria that evolved to digest nylon? We were screwing with their environment and they're just fine.

I've heard of that. I will put a side-note here, and say that I support micro evolution.. that is, small changes over a small period of time (like elephants being born without tusks to avoid extinction by poachers), but one species evolving into something entirely different over [insert ridiculous timeframe here]? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

Regardless, though, I'm not sure what this statement of yours is even trying to indicate.

It means, again, man keeps thinking that he knows better than God, and every time we get the arrogance to think that, and we try to override His design, something bad ends up happening. We end up making a mess of things.

Yes I learned about the birds and the bees.

Did you? That's awesome. I hope you did, if you're posting here and trying to talk about spiritual matters. Okay, then, why are you asking why every cell in the body has the entire DNA structure of the entire body, knowing that the entire body came from 1 egg cell and 1 sperm cell? Did you think that the cells were going to drop or forget DNA it doesn't need? It uses the part that is revelant to itself and just holds onto the rest of it. When you get taught in highschool, they give you a broad teaching that covers the basics of just about anything you'd want to get into when you get into college. When you get into college, they force you to take classes that are not part of your major. Why do you suppose that is? If you major in medicine, why do you need to know how to play a musical instrument? etc.

Lol um, you reject evolution, so why are you wanting me to cite an evolutionist?

No, I'm wanting you to cite hard proof. That's what atheists do to Christians... "Where's the PROOF of this? Where's the PROOF of that?" .... ok... where's the Hard Proof that DNA of every cell "evolved" over trillions of generations, instead of actually being created the way you see it now?

You're right, it doesn't have to. Clearly it works as is. But if you were INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNING it, then you wouldn't make it this way.

Again, the "I know better than God" attitude. God designed it that way for a reason, and you think you could do better. By saying "if we intelligently designed it..." then you're implying that God didn't "intelligently design" it, which... well that could be considered blasphemy but whatever. It ain't me that is going to have to answer for that one day.

There are people who live in broken down buses. That doesn't mean the bus was designed to be a home.

That has nothing to do with whether or not it needs started over from scratch, lol. I dunno what you were even trying to get at with this.

Do you even know what perfect efficiency is? It means no effort going to waste. I guess according to you, no work is done when DNA is duplicated. Therefore why do you contest abiogenesis?

God stated in the Bible that there will be a day when the "heavens" (sky, space, the entire universe) and the Earth will be done away with, and remade anew. (Revelation 21:21, 2 Peter 3:10-13)

Science agrees with this: The laws of thermodynamics says that perpetual motion systems are impossible (and this also applies to planets, the Sun, etc) because they will wind down eventually.

I don't recall ever endorsing artificial foods here or anywhere.

Didn't say you did, but it was yet another example of man's meddling with God's creation that ends in disaster.

When did I say the cell is simple? Bacteria have evolved for several billions of years, so I don't know why you think they would be simple in my worldview. They are actually more highly evolved than humans, if it's even proper to use that terminology.

Never said you said that.

I agree with your skepticism here. We should be able to reproduce it, or at least produce some scenario that is consistent with early earth conditions and show that it can bring about a self-replicating molecule. But none of this has anything to do with evolution.

Evolution falls apart if you can't even explain how it even started, lol. That's like me trying to explain how a car works without being able to explain how you get the engine to turn over for the first time. I could sit down and explain the intricate workings of pistons, gasoline, combustion, etc... but if I can't explain how the first rotation of the pistons happens in the engine, the whole thing is useless. (now obviously I know how it happens -- you use an electric starter, or push the car while it's in gear).

Evolution is an established scientific fact and it deals with the origin of species, not the origin of life.

Ahh, yes. "X group of people believes it, so it must be truth." The very thing you criticize Christianity (and religions) for. The only difference is that "they are scientists so that makes their truth better than someone else's truth".

Evolution doesn't talk about abiogenesis any more than geology talks about black holes. You don't even know what you're talking about

Yes, but abiogenesis is kinda required for Evolution. If you can't get abiogenesis working in such a way that's believable, evolution similarly falls apart (see above).

and yet you reject good science in favor of the scribblings of men who clearly had no idea how biology works (Genesis 30:37-39).

Cherry picking verses, are we?

The verses never said that the reason the cattle/sheep/etc were born that way was because Jacob placed the wood like that. Correlation != Causation. Jacob coulda prayed and said "God, please make these cows/sheep/etc be born ringstraked or spotted when I place this wood before them" or maybe God Himself told Jacob to do it and it just isn't written? I'm sure lots of small details were left out because they weren't necessary to get the message across.

Think about it like this: Laban had dealt very treacherously with Jacob. Jacob is God's chosen man to bring forth a nation from his descendants. Laban was not very nice to Jacob and I would surmise that this made God angry with Laban, but not angry enough to outright smite him (and besides, Laban's descendants would be necessary later). So, instead, God decided to teach Laban a lesson by letting Jacob (rightly!) walk away with a huge portion of Laban's herd animals.

Again, you can reject abiogenesis because of this, but rejecting evolution is completely unfounded.

You can't build a house without a foundation. Evolution's foundation is abiogenesis. No abiogenesis = evolution doesn't hold water.
 
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cloudyday2

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The point people often mistakenly applied is what Archaeology can do. Archaeology is all about a preserved location for one to study the culture of humans or large scale activities could possibly occur there. First, in comparing to human history as a whole only few spots can be well preserved (usually by a fluke) for examination. And second, Archaeology can never be used to examine history in majority especially the part about what an ancient figure had said and done (Archaeology is thought to be the god that when you examine a spot that you can know automatically what one has said 2000 years ago).

The term Archaeology is like a plague to them to think that everything in history can be examined but in reality 99.99% of written history cannot be examined by Archaeology. Plus that written history is only 0.0000001% of events concerning humans in history. Humans wrote history only for an event or a figure is considered famous enough. These writings may not be well preserved and maintained till the point when paper was invented.

What we read today are those writings we believe with faith that they were well transplanted from ancient scrolls to papers.
That is a good point you made - that archaeology only finds widely scattered data points. That is probably even more true of paleontology. But nevertheless, both fields are scientific, because new discoveries can disprove earlier guesses. A paleontologist might make a hypothesis about the ratio of different fossils in an upcoming dig. If the ratio in the actual dig doesn't match the hypothesis, then scientific knowledge increased.
 
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I thought about this after I left for work today. Yeah, there was another "race" of hominids: the giants referred to in the Bible. Most were wiped out by the Flood, the rest were wiped out by Joshua and his descendants in their conquest of the land of Canaan. You will also find legends of these giant people (and some claims that bones have been found) in North America, but they eventually died out too (perhaps God had a hand in that too?).

You seem to be saying that you believe the flood was a global event. That view is at least consistent with the views of someone who rejects evolution, so I'll help myself to the assumption that you believe the flood was global.

But a couple paragraphs down you go to great lengths to say how different the races of humanity are today. So then you seem to be saying that the different races, from Asian to African, evolved within a span of 5000 years. There is no evolutionist on earth who would say evolution occurs that rapidly. We can generate different breeds of dogs fairly quickly but that process is artificial. There was no one force-breeding humans and looking at charts, following breeding recipes to create, say, an Asian. The human races came about naturally and did so, according to you, in 5000 years. Yet you reject evolution.

Also, if you compare, say, a skeleton of your typical Russian to a skeleton of your typical Japanese person, I'm sure the severe size/weight difference. Also, some of the nordic peoples way back when compared to the Japanese today.

Just how far can a species be varied and still be considered the same species? We lump everybody today into the "homo sapiens" label (oh, could you imagine the PC outrage if we ever invented another name to refer to an ethnic group as another subspecies, lol...) but yet there's a LOT of diversity in there.

Firstly, I am greatly annoyed with the hypocrisy of Christians mocking politically correct liberals. You act like it's fair game to spit the truth, regardless of whom you offend. OK, how about this: your contradiction-riddled book was composed by a group of racist, sexist, genocidal, conquesting, slave-driving, rapist maniacs. And they were the ones who ultimately came up with the entire foundation of Christianity: blood sacrifice, without which Jesus' death would've been meaningless. You're literally basing your sense of morality and notion of atonement on the scribblings of these savages. I mean if we're dropping the PC pretense, let's just say it how it is, right?

Oh, but have I trampled something sacred of yours? Now you see how it feels to those liberals when you trample their sacred notions of equality. Perhaps in your eyes it is a stupid notion that equality is a sacred idea, but just be aware that a God sacrificing himself to himself to save us all from himself is equally stupid to us.

Secondly, your idea of dividing humanity into subspecies is absurd, and not for PC reasons. The definition of "species" is a group of animals who are capable of interbreeding and producing offspring that is itself fertile. If you take an African and an Asian, their offspring will be able to mate with, say, a half-caucasian half-Eskimo person. In no sense are there different species of humans. We already denote the obvious differences that you are observing with the word "race."

But it seems to me that all of the other labels they've slapped on hominids (erectus, etc) they all look very similar in size, shape, and functionality of their bodies. Their skulls are the main points of where they differ, and I just love the artists' rendition when they make their bodies hairy all over like they're some kind of halfway point between apes and sapiens, lol. I'm sure they knew exactly how hairy these... hominids were... from their skeletons, lol. How do they know they weren't as smooth-skinned as your average hairy live-in-mother's-basement-gamer-cheetos/mountain dew-junkie? (no offense to gamers here, but you know the stereotype)

They look similar in size and shape because they are missing links. If they looked nothing like us, they wouldn't be a link in the evolutionary chain.

The artist renditions of them being hairy is likely accurate because we modern humans still get goosebumps, a biological function that is nonsensical to an animal with no fur. The purpose of it is to stand fur upright to conserve heat more efficiently. Therefore it is likely that our ancestors had fur.

I was being a bit facetious. I know what DNA does.

You asked why there is no bird DNA in humans as if evolution predicts that. Our common ancestors with birds go far, far back as they are not even mammals. Same goes for the reptiles you mentioned.


Again, you're referring to evolutionists who all stem from the same basic concept: Nothing+Time=Everything. It all assumes that all of this had simply miraculous chances of survival and everything working out in such a way that a perfect ecosystem "evolved", and that only one main species genus (homo) ever developed intelligence, yet intelligence is the pinnacle of evolution.

Nothing? I told you that there are amino acids on comets. We see alcohol in nebulae. Organic compounds form naturally.

By "nothing+time=everything" are you referring to the Big Bang? Because that did not occur over a duration of time, and there is no positive claim that it arose from nothing, although that possibility is not excluded.

I'm not sure what a "species genus" is but your claim that it is absurd that only one genus ever developed "intelligence" is a deathblow to evolution how, exactly?

Also, from the above quoted block, you mentioned "capable of using tools". Well... there's a lot of animals today that "use tools". Primates use tools. Monkeys will crack stuff open with rocks, and we've even taught monkeys how to roast marshmallows. I suppose you're gonna call them "intelligent" (I suppose sapient would be a better word to use..) now, too? How about beavers? Or bees? Bees build elaborate structures, perhaps even more elaborate than we can build ours.

In a biological sense, intelligent life is anything with a brain or nervous system. So basically everything on earth except plants and single-celled organisms are intelligent. We are obviously much, much farther along on the spectrum.

Birds can navigate miles and they have the perfect instinct to know exactly how much to eat, the exact heading to go, and the exact flight mechanisms to use to make sure they will make their destination. Do you think this was somehow passed down over generations? What about the generations that failed to get it right? There had to be some, right? Or did somehow these birds magically learn how to do this? lol.

Migration is not a pass/fail type of thing. If they used a more rudimentary navigation system to migrate to a place that is not quite ideal but still warmer, then their chances of survival increase. Pick up a book on evolution.



I've heard of that. I will put a side-note here, and say that I support micro evolution.. that is, small changes over a small period of time (like elephants being born without tusks to avoid extinction by poachers), but one species evolving into something entirely different over [insert ridiculous timeframe here]? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

No, you believe in macro evolution to the utmost extreme. You believe that several human races can evolve in under 5000 years.


It means, again, man keeps thinking that he knows better than God, and every time we get the arrogance to think that, and we try to override His design, something bad ends up happening. We end up making a mess of things.

We do know better than God. I will suffer a witch to live, I will eat hamburgers (mix of dairy and meat), I won't execute someone for working on Saturday or being homosexual, and etc. So yes, God knows quite little about modern society.


Did you? That's awesome. I hope you did, if you're posting here and trying to talk about spiritual matters. Okay, then, why are you asking why every cell in the body has the entire DNA structure of the entire body, knowing that the entire body came from 1 egg cell and 1 sperm cell? Did you think that the cells were going to drop or forget DNA it doesn't need? It uses the part that is revelant to itself and just holds onto the rest of it. When you get taught in highschool, they give you a broad teaching that covers the basics of just about anything you'd want to get into when you get into college. When you get into college, they force you to take classes that are not part of your major. Why do you suppose that is? If you major in medicine, why do you need to know how to play a musical instrument? etc.

Spiritual matters? When did I indicate I was talking about that?

When a fetus reaches a certain number of cells, a group breaks off and declares itself a leg, or a liver, or etc. At that point, it's no longer necessary for that region to contain all of the DNA, and in fact it would be better if it didn't.

No, I'm wanting you to cite hard proof. That's what atheists do to Christians... "Where's the PROOF of this? Where's the PROOF of that?" .... ok... where's the Hard Proof that DNA of every cell "evolved" over trillions of generations, instead of actually being created the way you see it now?

Pick up a book on evolution. I'm a math major so I can't describe it all to you. I have only seen enough in my intro to anthropology courses to be convinced and go from a former Christian who still didn't believe in evolution to a former Christian who finally did accept evolution.


Again, the "I know better than God" attitude. God designed it that way for a reason, and you think you could do better. By saying "if we intelligently designed it..." then you're implying that God didn't "intelligently design" it, which... well that could be considered blasphemy but whatever. It ain't me that is going to have to answer for that one day.

If you don't know better than God, then I feel sorry for you.


That has nothing to do with whether or not it needs started over from scratch, lol. I dunno what you were even trying to get at with this.

The point is that preexisting structures are often used for other purposes. That occurs in evolution regularly.

God stated in the Bible that there will be a day when the "heavens" (sky, space, the entire universe) and the Earth will be done away with, and remade anew. (Revelation 21:21, 2 Peter 3:10-13)

I missed the part where the universe is going to end. There will be a heat death, but space will still exist.

Science agrees with this: The laws of thermodynamics says that perpetual motion systems are impossible (and this also applies to planets, the Sun, etc) because they will wind down eventually.

Yes. Science also has this law called the conservation of matter and energy, so I don't know why you think space will cease to exist.


Didn't say you did, but it was yet another example of man's meddling with God's creation that ends in disaster.

OK um, so do you take medicine? Do you go to the doctor? Or are you a Christian scientist? Do you just pray when you get sick?


Never said you said that.

Who did? Do you mean Darwin?

Evolution falls apart if you can't even explain how it even started, lol. That's like me trying to explain how a car works without being able to explain how you get the engine to turn over for the first time. I could sit down and explain the intricate workings of pistons, gasoline, combustion, etc... but if I can't explain how the first rotation of the pistons happens in the engine, the whole thing is useless. (now obviously I know how it happens -- you use an electric starter, or push the car while it's in gear).

No it doesn't fall apart just because we can't describe abiogenesis. That's like saying the theory of gravity falls apart if we can't explain where matter came from to begin with. You are up to your ears in ignorance of science.


Ahh, yes. "X group of people believes it, so it must be truth." The very thing you criticize Christianity (and religions) for. The only difference is that "they are scientists so that makes their truth better than someone else's truth".

You don't understand evolution and you can't even coherently describe it on a basic level. It's people like you who reject it. Even people like me who didn't major in biology still accept it because it is the fundamental basis of biology that you learn in introductory courses.

Go sit in on an anthropology course and a biology course at your local university. It's free.

Yes, but abiogenesis is kinda required for Evolution. If you can't get abiogenesis working in such a way that's believable, evolution similarly falls apart (see above).

So explain to me how gravity is a legitimate scientific principal if science cannot fully explain the Big Bang and hence the origin of matter to begin with.


Cherry picking verses, are we?

The verses never said that the reason the cattle/sheep/etc were born that way was because Jacob placed the wood like that. Correlation != Causation. Jacob coulda prayed and said "God, please make these cows/sheep/etc be born ringstraked or spotted when I place this wood before them" or maybe God Himself told Jacob to do it and it just isn't written? I'm sure lots of small details were left out because they weren't necessary to get the message across.

Think about it like this: Laban had dealt very treacherously with Jacob. Jacob is God's chosen man to bring forth a nation from his descendants. Laban was not very nice to Jacob and I would surmise that this made God angry with Laban, but not angry enough to outright smite him (and besides, Laban's descendants would be necessary later). So, instead, God decided to teach Laban a lesson by letting Jacob (rightly!) walk away with a huge portion of Laban's herd animals.

The verses are quite clear: the person who wrote that book thought it was common knowledge that you get striped goats in that manner. If such a description was in the Koran and not the Bible, you'd rip it to shreds and urinate on it. Your double standards are overwhelmingly transparent.

You can't build a house without a foundation. Evolution's foundation is abiogenesis. No abiogenesis = evolution doesn't hold water.

Yes, I get it. You know nothing about evolution or science at all.
 
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Peter1000

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You see, the key element of design is redesign. We did not go from the first telephone to the modern cell phone by gradually modifying the old one. We have at several points completely redesigned it from scratch. Where do we see that in the animal kingdom? Could you tell me why you have instructions in the cells of your toenails that describe how to create an eye? It's because the vast majority of life on earth up to this point has been single-celled life, and in a single-celled organism it is necessary to copy all DNA at once. The procedure by which DNA is copied has been refined through processes of evolution over trillions of generations to the point that it cannot start over from scratch like we did with the telephone. We are stuck with what we have. If God was an intelligent designer, why did he create this fundamental process of life to be so inefficient in multi-cellular organisms?


Science does not invent fictions. It does not make claims that it cannot support without concrete evidence. Every single one of your fantastical claims is supported by nothing at all.
Science does do a pretty good job of explaining some phenomena that is in our environment today. But to explain how a complex single cell came into existence, its all theories and guess work.

That is the whole ball game. If you can't prove how it started, you cannot start explaining how a member of one animal family morphed into a new animal family. Lots of theories, like Darwins theory of the origin of species. This is an interesting theory, but still just a theory. It has a lot of holes and scientists know it but it is the only explanation now that offers an alternaive to God and it is being defended tooth and toenail. It is all so political now, the theory has become fact and God is in supposed to be in trouble. Not.
 
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You seem to be saying that you believe the flood was a global event. That view is at least consistent with the views of someone who rejects evolution, so I'll help myself to the assumption that you believe the flood was global.

God said waters covered the Earth, so waters covered the Earth. *shrugs*

But a couple paragraphs down you go to great lengths to say how different the races of humanity are today. So then you seem to be saying that the different races, from Asian to African, evolved within a span of 5000 years. There is no evolutionist on earth who would say evolution occurs that rapidly. We can generate different breeds of dogs fairly quickly but that process is artificial. There was no one force-breeding humans and looking at charts, following breeding recipes to create, say, an Asian. The human races came about naturally and did so, according to you, in 5000 years. Yet you reject evolution.

The Bible gives a nice neat little cliffnotes of who begat who and who went where. A nice little family tree, this guy begat these sons, and these sons went this way and started a nation over there, etc.

Who is to say God didn't cause them to become different, because He seems to like variety?

Firstly, I am greatly annoyed with the hypocrisy of Christians mocking politically correct liberals. You act like it's fair game to spit the truth, regardless of whom you offend.

Political Correct Liberals want to remove all individuality and make everybody the same. They will tell you "no, no, that's not what we want", but we know better. They will want the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, and they will not stop until everybody looks the same, acts the same, and is referred to the same. They, in essence, seem to want a world full of people who have no individuality, that they are just... a mass of people that are indistinguishable against one-another.

God created the world with lots of variety. He wanted there to be individuality. Each person is an individual. God made each human unique, just like He made each snowflake unique. In fact, that's an insult that PC people will sometimes use: "Oh you just wanna be a special snowflake". It isn't that I want to be a special snowflake, it's a fact that everybody is a special snowflake because that's how God made us.

OK, how about this: your contradiction-riddled book was composed by a group of racist, sexist, genocidal, conquesting, slave-driving, rapist maniacs.

Wait, what....? Rapist? lol. I would have to say that I know my Bible rather well, but last I checked, rape is actually against Jewish Law.

And they were the ones who ultimately came up with the entire foundation of Christianity: blood sacrifice, without which Jesus' death would've been meaningless. You're literally basing your sense of morality and notion of atonement on the scribblings of these savages. I mean if we're dropping the PC pretense, let's just say it how it is, right?

If that is your opinion, fine. That's your opinion. I won't try to force you to have another opinion, nor will I cry about you speaking what you feel about something.

Oh, but have I trampled something sacred of yours?

If you did, it ain't me you gotta answer to.

Now you see how it feels to those liberals when you trample their sacred notions of equality.

It doesn't really bother me, but yet Liberal PCs get red faced and angry anytime you speak out against their desires to turn everybody into carbon copies of each other.

Perhaps in your eyes it is a stupid notion that equality is a sacred idea, but just be aware that a God sacrificing himself to himself to save us all from himself is equally stupid to us.

If that is your opinion, well. That's your opinion. The problem with PC is that they are trying to enforce THEIR stuff on everybody else. A Christian will tell you the gospel, but he isn't going to force you to accept Christ. If you refuse Christ, he'll shake his head and walk away from you (hopefully with a prayer that you might change your mind one day). A PC person will rant on and on and use whatever he can to get in your way if you refuse to be PC yourself. They will try to get you in trouble on forums, they will try to enact laws that prevent you from speaking the way you want to speak, blah blah blah. They can't just leave well enough alone, no, they have to enforce THEIR PC standards and remove free speech.

They look similar in size and shape because they are missing links. If they looked nothing like us, they wouldn't be a link in the evolutionary chain.

Or, perhaps, they were just as the Bible says they were -- products of men messing around with things they shouldn't have been messing around with. Sinful aberrations that God never intended to exist.

The artist renditions of them being hairy is likely accurate because we modern humans still get goosebumps, a biological function that is nonsensical to an animal with no fur. The purpose of it is to stand fur upright to conserve heat more efficiently. Therefore it is likely that our ancestors had fur.

The same kinda fur that your average basement-dwelling orange-fingered dew drinker has, maybe.

You asked why there is no bird DNA in humans as if evolution predicts that. Our common ancestors with birds go far, far back as they are not even mammals. Same goes for the reptiles you mentioned.

Again, I said I was being facetious.

I'm not sure what a "species genus" is but your claim that it is absurd that only one genus ever developed "intelligence" is a deathblow to evolution how, exactly?

If the goal of any animal is to reach it's pinnacle of evolution, aka, survival of the "fittest", then you'd think more than one genus would have evolved sapience. Otherwise you got countless animals all over the world who decided that they were cool where they are, or are they just slowpokes?

In a biological sense, intelligent life is anything with a brain or nervous system. So basically everything on earth except plants and single-celled organisms are intelligent. We are obviously much, much farther along on the spectrum.

Again, I said "ok, maybe sapience is a better word to use".

Migration is not a pass/fail type of thing. If they used a more rudimentary navigation system to migrate to a place that is not quite ideal but still warmer, then their chances of survival increase. Pick up a book on evolution.

Some bird species migrate over the ocean. Like, that one bird species that goes from southern Alaska to Hawaii (or is that somewhere in Canada to Hawaii? Something like that). Where are these birds gonna stop that's "close, good enough"? All they got is nothing but water for as far as the eye can see until they land on some tiny islands many miles away.

No, you believe in macro evolution to the utmost extreme. You believe that several human races can evolve in under 5000 years.

Noah and his sons had children of their own, and the family went their separate ways. Each family gave rise to the major ethnic groups and it went from there. Some ethic groups changed over time because of their environment (Africans/Ethiopians getting a dark skin tone due to severe sun exposure and lots of heat, for example).

Ever wondered why the ethnic groups' origins are all found in a certain direction from the middle east? Africans and Ethiopians originated from the South of Canaan, Orientals originated from the Southeast and East of Canaan, etc? Just as the Bible said happened.

We do know better than God. I will suffer a witch to live, I will eat hamburgers (mix of dairy and meat), I won't execute someone for working on Saturday or being homosexual, and etc. So yes, God knows quite little about modern society.

God chose a specific people (Israelites) to follow strict laws so that He could set these people apart from the pagans that lived all around them. These laws weren't meant for us (unless you are of Jewish descent by blood), except for the law against homosexuality of course. That remains a sin and is quite clearly defined as such in the NT (and I'd have to agree -- the act disgusting and vile, though I hold nothing against the people; I pray they wake up and stop doing it)

When a fetus reaches a certain number of cells, a group breaks off and declares itself a leg, or a liver, or etc. At that point, it's no longer necessary for that region to contain all of the DNA, and in fact it would be better if it didn't.

"Better" in your limited understanding and point of view.

I missed the part where the universe is going to end. There will be a heat death, but space will still exist.

Excuse me, everything IN the universe, maybe not the universe itself. *rolls eyes* now we're pulling out the semantics.

Yes. Science also has this law called the conservation of matter and energy, so I don't know why you think space will cease to exist.

Space? No. The stuff in space? Yes. Heat death, then stuff gets re-created, and then lives on after that. Just as the Bible says will happen.

OK um, so do you take medicine? Do you go to the doctor? Or are you a Christian scientist? Do you just pray when you get sick?

I try not to take medicine when I can so avoid it. I very rarely get sick (I average about one cold/minor flu per year) and I fight it off with my body's natural immune system. I don't baby my body by stuffing myself full of pills every time I get a sniffle, nor do I bundle up in 5 layers of clothing every time it gets below 40F.

Guess what? I can take up to -10F without a coat and not get sick if there's no wind. I've gotten thoroughly drenched in rain while wearing T-shirt and denim in 38-40F weather and had sniffles for a little, but otherwise did not get sick whatsoever.

I avoid antibacterial soaps (again, don't baby your body if you want it to remain strong) whenever possible.

As for doctors, I avoid them unless I absolutely need surgery or something similar. I have to, anyways, because you know.. the "Affordable" Care Act and all that, that got rid of my health insurance.

No it doesn't fall apart just because we can't describe abiogenesis. That's like saying the theory of gravity falls apart if we can't explain where matter came from to begin with. You are up to your ears in ignorance of science.

Bad analogy.

Abiogenesis -> Evolution -> Today's Animals is a linear progression. Matter -> Gravity is not.

You don't understand evolution and you can't even coherently describe it on a basic level. It's people like you who reject it. Even people like me who didn't major in biology still accept it because it is the fundamental basis of biology that you learn in introductory courses.

So basically, you learn the basics and you go "hey that sounds great!" without even learning the rest of it? lol.

So explain to me how gravity is a legitimate scientific principal if science cannot fully explain the Big Bang and hence the origin of matter to begin with.

Gravity happens today, and gravity is observable today. Abiogenesis is not, neither is the evolution that allegedly happened over millions of years.

The verses are quite clear: the person who wrote that book thought it was common knowledge that you get striped goats in that manner. If such a description was in the Koran and not the Bible, you'd rip it to shreds and urinate on it. Your double standards are overwhelmingly transparent.

You point out in those verses where it says that it happened because of that. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

It literally says "Thing 1" happened, then "Thing 2 happened", then "Thing 3 happened" It did not say "Thing 1 caused Thing 3 to happen".

I don't see a "Because" anywhere in there. Again, Correlation != Causation.

If I had a wife, and if God were to tell me to dance around in my room while waving a blonde-colored stick to make my pregnant wife's child's hair come out blonde, I'd do it. Not because I believe that waving a stick while dancing has anything to do with it, but more because God is testing my faith and obedience.

I'm pretty well sure Jacob knew that putting those pieces of wood in front of the cows wasn't going to cause that. I'm more of the mind God told him to, and he did it out of obedience and faith no matter how silly it sounds.

God has a sense of humor at times. We're talking about the same God who instructed Isaiah to preach naked to prove a point about Israel at the time, afterall. What did Isaiah do? He did exactly what he was told to do.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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God said waters covered the Earth, so waters covered the Earth. *shrugs*

And all plant life survived a year under saltwater. *shrug*


The Bible gives a nice neat little cliffnotes of who begat who and who went where. A nice little family tree, this guy begat these sons, and these sons went this way and started a nation over there, etc.

Who is to say God didn't cause them to become different, because He seems to like variety?

The "God did it" escape pod. How eloquent.

But if God seems to like variety, why did he interact wildly with one race of people in one small portion of the world while ignoring the other six continents?


Political Correct Liberals want to remove all individuality and make everybody the same. They will tell you "no, no, that's not what we want", but we know better. They will want the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, and they will not stop until everybody looks the same, acts the same, and is referred to the same. They, in essence, seem to want a world full of people who have no individuality, that they are just... a mass of people that are indistinguishable against one-another.

God created the world with lots of variety. He wanted there to be individuality. Each person is an individual. God made each human unique, just like He made each snowflake unique. In fact, that's an insult that PC people will sometimes use: "Oh you just wanna be a special snowflake". It isn't that I want to be a special snowflake, it's a fact that everybody is a special snowflake because that's how God made us.

Um, woah. Just woah. Have you never seen those liberal propaganda commercials with like, you know, black children playing with white children or those credit card commercials where they take the challenge to show a white guy, a black woman, and a Muslim guy all going about their lives in their unique ways? Or these posters:

Diversity2.jpg


The liberal agenda encourages diversity. They encourage gays and lesbians to express themselves and be who they are. If you're gay and you're Christian, the right wing will tell you that you need to seek help and prayer to suppress your true self.

What you have said here is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen and I'm starting to wonder if you're a Poe.


Wait, what....? Rapist? lol. I would have to say that I know my Bible rather well, but last I checked, rape is actually against Jewish Law.

Really? Mind telling me where you actually read that? Allow me to quote myself from another thread:

Why are there extremely specific laws, such as not to cook a goat in its mothers milk, and also very important laws, like not to murder, and yet no law against rape? I just want an explanation of this. Surely the concept of rape was not beyond them, as there was the rape of Dinah, the rape of Tamar, and the dusk-till-dawn-rape-to-death of the levite's concubine in Judges 19. So to summarize...

1. The Jews made 600+ Do and Don't laws
2. These laws were very specific
3. These laws covered minor and major offenses
4. The Jews were aware of what rape is
5. There is no law against rape

Also, slavery was explicitly allowed. Surely, since women are naturally weaker than men in the physical sense, female slaves are less desirable than male slaves. Yet female slaves were certainly owned, as there is a law on the books regarding fornication with them in Leviticus 19:20. So tell me, what do you think Jewish slave owners were doing with their female slaves? Whatever you're imagining these things might be, do you reckon they were consensual? Indeed, other than the "free" food and "free" shelter, I don't know if anything done to a slave is consensual.

Now that you have a picture in your head of the daily life for a female slave in Israel, can you point to a Jewish law that says there is a violation occurring? If you had a time machine and a translation machine, and you had a conversation with such a slave, what would you say? "Don't worry, in a thousand years the culture that is abusing you will provide you with a means of atonement for your offenses against the laws this culture invented"?

And of course, the abuse of female slaves extended somewhat to regular women, since there is, as I've said, no "Thou shalt not rape" law on the books. The only time a man is punished for raping a woman, as far as I know, is when the woman is married or betrothed to another man. If it is a virgin who is not betrothed, he has to marry her and may not divorce her. The text does not say that he may not continue to rape her. So... what do you think would happen if a man who raped a woman marries her? Would he suddenly be a charming husband to her?

If there is one thing that's clear from reading the Bible, it's that the ancient Jews actually made no distinction between consensual sex and rape. Coincidentally, the God of this patriarchal society is a man, and also the other God who is the same God is also a man.


My source for the rape laws are Deuteronomy 22:25-29.

I will add to the above that in many cases, Jewish conquests of the holy lands allowed for the warriors to "take the virgins for themselves" (Numbers 31:15-18). So let me get this straight... a young woman watches her whole family get slaughtered, and then some guy from the army that did it takes her as his wife. Yeah, seems consensual to me.

Also... you seem to leave the other damning accusations completely uncontested.

If that is your opinion, fine. That's your opinion. I won't try to force you to have another opinion, nor will I cry about you speaking what you feel about something.



If you did, it ain't me you gotta answer to.



It doesn't really bother me, but yet Liberal PCs get red faced and angry anytime you speak out against their desires to turn everybody into carbon copies of each other.

Again, WHAT?


If that is your opinion, well. That's your opinion. The problem with PC is that they are trying to enforce THEIR stuff on everybody else. A Christian will tell you the gospel, but he isn't going to force you to accept Christ. If you refuse Christ, he'll shake his head and walk away from you (hopefully with a prayer that you might change your mind one day). A PC person will rant on and on and use whatever he can to get in your way if you refuse to be PC yourself. They will try to get you in trouble on forums, they will try to enact laws that prevent you from speaking the way you want to speak, blah blah blah. They can't just leave well enough alone, no, they have to enforce THEIR PC standards and remove free speech.

OK um... again... you seem like a Poe. You are really, as a Christian, complaining that others are trying to enforce THEIR stuff on everybody else?

In Kansas they tried to insert creationism into public schools. Back in the 50s I think it was, they had "In God we trust" put on the dollar. They try to get the 10 Commandments (which seem to lack "Thou shalt not rape"...) in front of courthouses. They brainwash their kids, and punish them for not believing. I've spoken with people who have been kicked out of their homes because they're gay.

But no, you're right, the Christians are the victims here. Because the world is so slanted in my favor. Put on your serious hat and think... what if an atheist organization systematically raped children and protected the perpetrators by shuffling them along from one area to another? How long before that organization would be torn to the ground? Yet the Catholic church is still swimming in money even after parting ways with billions of dollars in legal fees and settlements.

Or, perhaps, they were just as the Bible says they were -- products of men messing around with things they shouldn't have been messing around with. Sinful aberrations that God never intended to exist.

Huh?

The same kinda fur that your average basement-dwelling orange-fingered dew drinker has, maybe.

So you are saying humans have fur.

Again, I said I was being facetious.

No, you are a Poe. It's taking it a bit beyond being facetious.

If the goal of any animal is to reach it's pinnacle of evolution, aka, survival of the "fittest", then you'd think more than one genus would have evolved sapience. Otherwise you got countless animals all over the world who decided that they were cool where they are, or are they just slowpokes?

I was unaware that organisms decide how they want to evolve. Thanks for the update.

Again, I said "ok, maybe sapience is a better word to use".

Some bird species migrate over the ocean. Like, that one bird species that goes from southern Alaska to Hawaii (or is that somewhere in Canada to Hawaii? Something like that). Where are these birds gonna stop that's "close, good enough"? All they got is nothing but water for as far as the eye can see until they land on some tiny islands many miles away.

So you ask me why birds know how to navigate, saying it's evidence against my case, but then you also call these birds stupid, which is also evidence against my case.

Noah and his sons had children of their own, and the family went their separate ways. Each family gave rise to the major ethnic groups and it went from there. Some ethic groups changed over time because of their environment (Africans/Ethiopians getting a dark skin tone due to severe sun exposure and lots of heat, for example).

Those changes cannot occur in 5000 years, what is wrong with you?

Ever wondered why the ethnic groups' origins are all found in a certain direction from the middle east? Africans and Ethiopians originated from the South of Canaan, Orientals originated from the Southeast and East of Canaan, etc? Just as the Bible said happened.

No I never sat and wondered about that. The Bible recorded it as history, not as a prediction. Why are you acting like that's so remarkable?


God chose a specific people (Israelites) to follow strict laws so that He could set these people apart from the pagans that lived all around them. These laws weren't meant for us (unless you are of Jewish descent by blood), except for the law against homosexuality of course. That remains a sin and is quite clearly defined as such in the NT (and I'd have to agree -- the act disgusting and vile, though I hold nothing against the people; I pray they wake up and stop doing it)

But still, in a certain place and time, God was saying it was wrong to work on the Sabbath. I'm calling that out as stupid.

Also it is "clearly defined as such in the NT" that slavery is acceptable. Do you agree with this?


"Better" in your limited understanding and point of view.

My understanding is limited, but not as limited as those who were born thousands of years before me.


Excuse me, everything IN the universe, maybe not the universe itself. *rolls eyes* now we're pulling out the semantics.



Space? No. The stuff in space? Yes. Heat death, then stuff gets re-created, and then lives on after that. Just as the Bible says will happen.

This is your response to where I said,

Yes. Science also has this law called the conservation of matter and energy, so I don't know why you think space will cease to exist.

Again, matter and energy will not cease to exist in the heat death. That's not what the heat death is. The heat death means that work will no longer be able to be done.

I try not to take medicine when I can so avoid it. I very rarely get sick (I average about one cold/minor flu per year) and I fight it off with my body's natural immune system. I don't baby my body by stuffing myself full of pills every time I get a sniffle, nor do I bundle up in 5 layers of clothing every time it gets below 40F.

Guess what? I can take up to -10F without a coat and not get sick if there's no wind. I've gotten thoroughly drenched in rain while wearing T-shirt and denim in 38-40F weather and had sniffles for a little, but otherwise did not get sick whatsoever.

I avoid antibacterial soaps (again, don't baby your body if you want it to remain strong) whenever possible.

As for doctors, I avoid them unless I absolutely need surgery or something similar. I have to, anyways, because you know.. the "Affordable" Care Act and all that, that got rid of my health insurance.

But ultimately, you do rely on man's meddling with God's design when your life is in danger. Lol.


Bad analogy.

Abiogenesis -> Evolution -> Today's Animals is a linear progression. Matter -> Gravity is not.

What?


So basically, you learn the basics and you go "hey that sounds great!" without even learning the rest of it? lol.

And you learned nothing about it and you go "hey that sounds stupid!" without even learning the first thing of it? Lol.

Gravity happens today, and gravity is observable today. Abiogenesis is not, neither is the evolution that allegedly happened over millions of years.

Please stand on a phone book as you read this so it doesn't go over your head again.

Gravity is to evolution as creation of matter is to abiogenesis.

Without matter, there is no gravity; without abiogenesis, there is no evolution.

We don't know how matter came into existence, but we can still describe how gravity works.

We don't know how life came into existence, but we can still describe how life evolves.

You point out in those verses where it says that it happened because of that. Go ahead, I'm waiting.

It literally says "Thing 1" happened, then "Thing 2 happened", then "Thing 3 happened" It did not say "Thing 1 caused Thing 3 to happen".

I don't see a "Because" anywhere in there. Again, Correlation != Causation.

If I had a wife, and if God were to tell me to dance around in my room while waving a blonde-colored stick to make my pregnant wife's child's hair come out blonde, I'd do it. Not because I believe that waving a stick while dancing has anything to do with it, but more because God is testing my faith and obedience.

I'm pretty well sure Jacob knew that putting those pieces of wood in front of the cows wasn't going to cause that. I'm more of the mind God told him to, and he did it out of obedience and faith no matter how silly it sounds.

God has a sense of humor at times. We're talking about the same God who instructed Isaiah to preach naked to prove a point about Israel at the time, afterall. What did Isaiah do? He did exactly what he was told to do.

Firstly, there's this:

Then Jacob took fresh sticks of poplar and almond and plane trees, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the sticks. He set the sticks that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And SINCE they bred when they came to drink, the flocks bread in front of the sticks AND SO the flocks brought forth striped, speckled, and spotted.

That's from the ESV.

Now, if you want to throw, say, the KJV at me, showing me I can't spot the explicit use of a because, since, therefore, or thus, and you put the entire burden on me saying I must produce this or else I lose, then why are you allowed to just make up the claim that God told Jacob to do this? There is no mention of God there. If you want to say Jacob was following God's orders, show me WHERE it mentions God in there.

Now, we both know that the ancients had less knowledge than we do today. They didn't know about logical syllogisms. To them, correlation was causation.
 
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expos4ever

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If he is the most important person in the history of the world, why didn't he write anything down himself?
I see no reason to believe that one's importance is correlated all that strongly with whether one actually writes something.

And more importantly why didn't anybody else write anything down during the events? The gospels aren't written until decades later and are based on oral accounts. Oral accounts change drastically over many years.
I do not know my history well enough, but is it the case that in first-century Palestine significant events were generally written down at the same general time the events happened?
 
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Tree of Life

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I suspect I asked this question before in a different form, because I wonder about it a lot. Sometimes I like to imagine a benevolent God that I can talk to and so forth. I tell myself that maybe the Judeo Christian God is fiction, but my more generic chameleon-like God might actually exist.

The problem is that science can never find God's tracks. I ask myself if there is some inherent aspect of God that makes it impossible for Him to leave tracks. I ask myself if God can actually do anything meaningful without leaving tracks. Then there is the imaginary friend possibility. Imaginary friends serve a purpose and leave tracks in the real world even though they exist only in a human's imagination. I suppose the imaginary friend God that exists in human imaginations leaves tracks. Is it possible that God is real, but He restricts Himself to our imaginations? In other words, there is a real God that inspires humans to create imaginary friend Gods in their minds that then interact with the world? Could science tell if there was a real God behind these imaginary friend Gods?

Macbeth to King Duncan: "Why doesn't Shakespeare leave any tracks?"
 
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Tree of Life

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That may be so, but their world is completely absent of evidence of any "author".

Your analogy is quite apt.

If you think that Shakespeare is absent from Macbeth's world then it is not surprising to me that you do not see the presence of God in our world.
 
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