Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

True Scotsman · Dec 14, 2014

talquin said:
Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

It does not choose anything. It is imaginary. It can do anything one can imagine except appear in reality, just like all imaginary things.

Davian · Dec 14, 2014

RDKirk · Dec 14, 2014

talquin said:
Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

Part of the selection process.

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

True Scotsman said:
It does not choose anything. It is imaginary. It can do anything one can imagine except appear in reality, just like all imaginary things.

Then it is just as imaginary as things like Spiderman and Superman.

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

RDKirk said:
Part of the selection process.

So it's some kind of gullibility test.

Sophrosyne · Dec 14, 2014

I take it you haven't read the Gospel and realized that God chose to become one of us and live like us isn't enough even though it was written about. Does God have to come down again for every person who refuses to believe the New Testament authors?

Ken-1122 · Dec 14, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
I take it you haven't read the Gospel and realized that God chose to become one of us and live like us isn't enough even though it was written about. Does God have to come down again for every person who refuses to believe the New Testament authors?

Yes! Either that or communicate with mankind in a way that sticks out of the crowd of other religious claims! Those New Testament authors have no credibility with nonbelievers. What good is doing something that only confirms the belief of those who already believe?

Ken

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
I take it you haven't read the Gospel and realized that God chose to become one of us and live like us isn't enough even though it was written about. Does God have to come down again for every person who refuses to believe the New Testament authors?

Why do you consider the gospel to be sufficient evidence that a god exists?

Blue Box · Dec 14, 2014

talquin said:
Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality? A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

I presume you are talking about the god known as Yahweh, and not the hundreds and hundreds of other gods people have or do believe in?

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Blue Box said:
I presume you are talking about the god known as Yahweh, and not the hundreds and hundreds of other gods people have or do believe in?

Actually I'm referring to any god which exists.

Sophrosyne · Dec 14, 2014

Ken-1122 said:
Yes! Either that or communicate with mankind in a way that sticks out of the crowd of other religious claims! Those New Testament authors have no credibility with nonbelievers. What good is doing something that only confirms the belief of those who already believe?

Ken

If you have read the Bible in the book of Exodus (Moses time) all the miracles God did for the people of Israel in the desert you will get the picture in that no matter how much God does some people will refuse to accept him honestly instead. The reason Jesus had to do countless miracles throughout his ministry is because the people of Israel were skeptics and needed proof also. I could make other arguments but I think they would fall on deaf ears here.
In other words God over and over gave proof to people in the Bible that is written about in a fashion that appears honest and people refused to believe regardless of what he did.

bhsmte · Dec 14, 2014

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
If you have read the Bible in the book of Exodus (Moses time) all the miracles God did for the people of Israel in the desert you will get the picture in that no matter how much God does some people will refuse to accept him honestly instead. The reason Jesus had to do countless miracles throughout his ministry is because the people of Israel were skeptics and needed proof also. I could make other arguments but I think they would fall on deaf ears here.
In other words God over and over gave proof to people in the Bible that is written about in a fashion that appears honest and people refused to believe regardless of what he did.

Likewise, there are countless of people on this planet who are skeptics and need either proof or more extensive evidence. But there is no Jesus coming down doing miracles now. Why were those people given proof, but with the strong atheist movements today, we aren't given proof now?

Tree of Life · Dec 14, 2014

talquin said:
Assuming a god exists, it has chosen to remain invisible. Just how does it better serve this god's agenda to have a world in which he doesn't manifest himself in reality?

The God that Christians confess has made his presence known in many tangible ways.

The first is through creation itself. From the orderliness of creation, the obviousness of moral norms, and the image of God found in our own persons God's existence is obvious, seen and known by all.

But throughout history He has also acted in ways that we commonly call "miraculous". He's done things that are otherwise impossible or usually don't happen to manifest his presence.

He's also spoken throughout history through the mouths of chosen prophets - their authority and legitimacy being attested by the miraculous works of God that he works through them.

Finally he has shown up in person in the man Jesus Christ.

Today He is most tangibly manifest through his people the church, though he still does frequently act miraculously. His presence is also made known through the unfolding of his providence. He so orders history to advance his kingdom and grow his church that his presence in the world is obvious.

A world in which an existent god which doesn't manifest itself in reality is indistinguishable from a non-existent god?

Agreed. But the Biblical God is the most unavoidable fact of reality so this statement does not describe Him.

Furthermore, why would a god set up a system in which our salvation is dependent upon believing something to exist on insufficient evidence?

God has provided sufficient evidence for us to trust Him. If anyone persists in rebellion it is because they refuse to trust Him.

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Tree of Life said:
The God that Christians confess has made his presence known in many tangible ways.

The first is through creation itself. From the orderliness of creation, the obviousness of moral norms, and the image of God found in our own persons God's existence is obvious, seen and known by all.

But throughout history He has also acted in ways that we commonly call "miraculous". He's done things that are otherwise impossible or usually don't happen to manifest his presence.

He's also spoken throughout history through the mouths of chosen prophets - their authority and legitimacy being attested by the miraculous works of God that he works through them.

Finally he has shown up in person in the man Jesus Christ.

Today He is most tangibly manifest through his people the church, though he still does frequently act miraculously. His presence is also made known through the unfolding of his providence. He so orders history to advance his kingdom and grow his church that his presence in the world is obvious.

Agreed. But the Biblical God is the most unavoidable fact of reality so this statement does not describe Him.

God has provided sufficient evidence for us to trust Him. If anyone persists in rebellion it is because they refuse to trust Him.

Please describe when and where God has manifested himself in reality.

Ken-1122 · Dec 14, 2014

Sophrosyne said:
If you have read the Bible in the book of Exodus (Moses time) all the miracles God did for the people of Israel in the desert you will get the picture in that no matter how much God does some people will refuse to accept him honestly instead. The reason Jesus had to do countless miracles throughout his ministry is because the people of Israel were skeptics and needed proof also. I could make other arguments but I think they would fall on deaf ears here.
In other words God over and over gave proof to people in the Bible that is written about in a fashion that appears honest and people refused to believe regardless of what he did.

So God provided evidence to a tiny percentage of the population; and a tiny percentage believed. If he did the same thing today, the entire world would be witness because of media and modern technology thus maybe the entire world would believe.

Ken

talquin · Dec 14, 2014

Ken-1122 said:
So God provided evidence to a tiny percentage of the population; and a tiny percentage believed. If he did the same thing today, the entire world would be witness because of media and modern technology thus maybe the entire world would believe.

Ken

Yet he does nothing. This strongly suggests that God - if he exists - doesn't care if mankind believes he exists.

So we're left with two possibilities:
1) An existent god who is indifferent
2) No God

The possibility of an existent god who cares is removed from the equation because it is an impossibility.

Ken-1122 · Dec 14, 2014

Tree of Life said:
The God that Christians confess has made his presence known in many tangible ways.

The first is through creation itself. From the orderliness of creation, the obviousness of moral norms, and the image of God found in our own persons God's existence is obvious, seen and known by all.

Not by all, only by those who already believe.

Tree of Life said:
But throughout history He has also acted in ways that we commonly call "miraculous". He's done things that are otherwise impossible or usually don't happen to manifest his presence.

Such as......

Tree of Life said:
He's also spoken throughout history through the mouths of chosen prophets - their authority and legitimacy being attested by the miraculous works of God that he works through them.

People claiming to be prophets are only credible to those who already believe.

Tree of Life said:
Finally he has shown up in person in the man Jesus Christ.

Another person claiming to be God has no credibility.

Tree of Life said:
Today He is most tangibly manifest through his people the church, though he still does frequently act miraculously. His presence is also made known through the unfolding of his providence. He so orders history to advance his kingdom and grow his church that his presence in the world is obvious.

As much corruption that has been found in churches, it shouldn't surprise you they have little credibility either.

Tree of Life said:
Agreed. But the Biblical God is the most unavoidable fact of reality so this statement does not describe Him.

If that were true, you wouldn't need faith because you would have proof.

Ken

Tree of Life · Dec 14, 2014

talquin said:
Please describe when and where God has manifested himself in reality.

All the major stuff is recorded in scripture. I assume you're familiar with the Bible but maybe you're not. Let me know if you need me to elaborate on that.

Why does God choose to remain invisible and undetectable?

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