Why does God care?

[Criada]

Sometimes, Zaac, repentance can come as a result of God revealing Himself.
It's hard to repent from a position of total unbelief!

 

[TheManeki]

Sometimes, Zaac, repentance can come as a result of God revealing Himself.
It's hard to repent from a position of total unbelief!

Excellent point. It would be nice if each and every one of us could have our own personal Damascus Road.

Wonder why that's not the case...

 

[selfinflikted]

Self, it is absolutely impossible for God to fail. You have alluded to not thinking you were worthy of death because of some sin. Do you know how much sin we are all guilty of?

How can a HOLY GOD be in the presence of that which is unHOLY?

There is sin in your life that you don't even know is sin. And in order for God to be in relationship with us and be able to walk with us as He did with Adam and Eve in the Garden, that unholiness has to be made HOLY.

Jesus Christ has already done this. He has simply asked that we accept what He has done.

Man is sinful. There is no way to be in relationship with God until that sin is dealt with. And all Jesus is asking is will you accept what He has already done?

The gift is wrapped up and underneath the tree just waiting to be claimed. But He will not make us open it. He wants you to love Him because you CHOOSE to.

And choosing to love Him demands that you denounce ALL of your sin, even that which you think is insignificant, and accept his death on the Cross as the substitute for your own much warranted death.

Just remember, the sin has to be dealt with if you want to have a relationship with Him.

Your attempts to make me feel guilty won't work, Zaac. I'm not guilty of anything significant. Imperfect as I am, I do not feel guilty.

God, fortunately, is capable of the insanely huge..

We'll see.

IQs are still the same. I understood exactly what you were saying. But based upon what you have said to me in recent conversations, it appears that no one ever told you why you haven't heard from Him.

Despite your attempts to try to convince me I wasn't trying hard enough, I wasn't doing it right, and that I wasn't a TRUE CHRISTIAN, I think I know very well why god never answered Zaac. I suspect you know the answer to that as well.

 

[Zaac]

Sometimes, Zaac, repentance can come as a result of God revealing Himself.
It's hard to repent from a position of total unbelief!

Absolutely Criada. Not only is it hard to do, it's impossible to do. That's why it's a Catch-22. that element of faith has to be there.

The Truth of God has been written on every man's heart. But that heart has to truly want to know the God Who has revealed Himself.

The things of nature reveal God. But how many of us went many years of our life looking at something as simple as a tree stretching its branches towards the heavens turning CO2 into Oxygen giving man the air he needs to live and not seen the hand of God at work?

How many times have we wlked the very foundations of the earth and not acknowledged that the only reason that firmament was there is because God held back the seas and told themnot to progress any farther?

How many times have we thought about the earth being tilted on its axis at just the right angle to keep the rays of the Sun from scorching everything on earth? Or the moon being at just the right distance to control the tides?

God reveals Himself in the things of nature.

 

[Zaac]

Your attempts to make me feel guilty won't work, Zaac. I'm not guilty of anything significant. Imperfect as I am, I do not feel guilty.

Self, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. Like I said, God has not called Christians to convince you of your guilt. That is something that you iwll have to come to terms with yourself.

But how many sins do you think a person should be able to commit and be exempt from eternal damnation and death?

Despite your attempts to try to convince me I wasn't trying hard enough,

That's not at all what I was saying

I wasn't doing it right, and that I wasn't a TRUE CHRISTIAN, I think I know very well why god never answered Zaac. I suspect you know the answer to that as well.

If you were a Christian, you'd still be one. God doesn't save you and then take it back just because you sin again.

 

[TheManeki]

Absolutely Criada. Not only is it hard to do, it's impossible to do. That's why it's a Catch-22. that element of faith has to be there.

Then explain Saul/Paul. It took a revelation of the most powerful kind to change his mind, and it's doubtful that anything less would have sufficed.

 

[Zaac]

Then explain Saul/Paul. It took a revelation of the most powerful kind to change his mind, and it's doubtful that anything less would have sufficed.

It took an element of revelation AND faith to change his mind. The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Absent faith that the one revealing himself was truly God, there would have been no salvation.

 

[Criada]

Absolutely Criada. Not only is it hard to do, it's impossible to do. That's why it's a Catch-22. that element of faith has to be there.

All things are possible with God!
And faith is a gift.
I agree with your points about nature... now. But I wouldn't have when I was an atheist.
And frankly, if God hadn't given me faith, I could never have mustered it by looking at nature, however awesome.
Probably the scientist in me.. but all those things can be explained.
And when you really don't want to believe, it takes an intervention by God to turn you around.
And believe me.. that was the last thing I wanted!! Though I am very grateful now!


You know, we have totally wrecked this thread...
and whilst I am very happy to continue the discussion, maybe it would be better taken elsewhere, out of courtesy to the OP!

 

[selfinflikted]

Self, I'm not trying to make you feel guilty. Like I said, God has not called Christians to convince you of your guilt. That is something that you iwll have to come to terms with yourself.

Consider it done. I don't feel guilty.

But how many sins do you think a person should be able to commit and be exempt from eternal damnation and death?

That's one of the core issues here, Zaac. Your definition of "sin" and things that fall under that category are completely arbitrary. For example, if I look at a guy passing down the road and think, "Wow, I'd love to jump his bones!" - well, according to you, I've just sinned. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with a thought like that. It isn't inherently devious, malicious, nor does it cause harm and I certainly do not for one moment think that makes anyone worthy of death. If these petty instances are all that your god can concern himself with, then I have no use for him.

That's not at all what I was saying

Then you need to be more clear.

If you were a Christian, you'd still be one. God doesn't save you and then take it back just because you sin again.

Excellent. Consider me saved then, and rejoice!

 

[TheManeki]

Absent faith that the one revealing himself was truly God, there would have been no salvation.

When you witness a revealing of the divine like that, it's hard not to believe. What was Saul supposed to do, think it was swamp gas or UFOs?

If most people had a revelation like Saul's, they would probably believe. The question is, why aren't they given such a revelation?

 

[Zaac]

That's one of the core issues here, Zaac. Your definition of "sin" and things that fall under that category are completely arbitrary. For example, if I look at a guy passing down the road and think, "Wow, I'd love to jump his bones!" - well, according to you, I've just sinned. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with a thought like that. It isn't inherently devious, malicious, nor does it cause harm and I certainly do not for one moment think that makes anyone worthy of death. If these petty instances are all that your god can concern himself with, then I have no use for him.

So what would be sin according to you? God concerns Himself with ALL sin. Not just the ones we think ae biggies.

If we all get to decide what is wrong based upon our own criteria, would there ever be anything wrong?

What is the ultimate measure so that everyone is treated fairly without bias entering the equation? Would that not have to come from someone who could set law without the influence or bias of man?

Excellent. Consider me saved then, and rejoice!

that kinda contradicts what you have already said.

 

[Zaac]

When you witness a revealing of the divine like that, it's hard not to believe. What was Saul supposed to do, think it was swamp gas or UFOs?

If most people had a revelation like Saul's, they would probably believe. The question is, why aren't they given such a revelation?

the question is why should they be? WHy do you think He says in John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ?

 

[TheManeki]

the question is why should they be? WHy do you think He says in John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ?

I'm sure most people would consider a direct revelation of the divine blessing enough.

 

[quatona]

If we all get to decide what is wrong based upon our own criteria, would there ever be anything wrong?

That´s what everyone is doing all the time, and people find a lot of things wrong.

What is the ultimate measure so that everyone is treated fairly without bias entering the equation? Would that not have to come from someone who could set law without the influence or bias of man?

I fail to see how this problem is solved when it´s those necessarily biased humans who pick those gods that appear to them as the best and most reliable source of morality. It´s just one additional turn, with the same result.

 

[selfinflikted]

So what would be sin according to you?

An instrument of control. And idea concieved BY man to control MANKIND.

God concerns Himself with ALL sin. Not just the ones we think ae biggies.

Which is why I would consider that particular god unjust.

If we all get to decide what is wrong based upon our own criteria, would there ever be anything wrong?

I think most serious rights/wrongs are universal, Zaac. You'd be kidding yourself if you really think otherwise. Besides, if you need mythological characters and dusty tomes to tell you what's right and wrong, then you are the one who's lost - not me.

What is the ultimate measure so that everyone is treated fairly without bias entering the equation? Would that not have to come from someone who could set law without the influence or bias of man?

No. Why should there be anything else?

that kinda contradicts what you have already said.

Not really, you're the one who said it. You said if I ever was truely a christian and saved, then I still am. Well, I was a True Christian in the past...

 

[Zaac]

I'm sure most people would consider a direct revelation of the divine blessing enough.

I'm sure they would too. But that still doesn't remove the need for faith.

 

[TheManeki]

I'm sure they would too. But that still doesn't remove the need for faith.

Paul didn't need faith, nor did the apostles. They got proof.

 

[Zaac]

Paul didn't need faith, nor did the apostles. They got proof.

If Paul and the apostles didn't have faith, there could not have been any salvation.

 

[TheManeki]

If Paul and the apostles didn't have faith, there could not have been any salvation.

Unfortunately, faith seems to be the substitute for us who were not blessed with some sort of divine proof instead. Who knows what the world would be like today if more people had the same kind of transformative direct revelation as Saul, let alone a relationship like the disciples. Certainly makes me question why God would take a message with such life-or-death importance and allow it to spread across the globe so slowly.

And stop beating on Selfinflicted (not that he isn't doing a great job sticking up for himself, 'cause he is); the tone and content of your posts make you look like a bully.

I think I've decided that my issue with the once-saved, always-saved idea lies more with certain people's take on the idea than the idea itself: I'm tired of people using the idea to mean that if someone falls away, they never were Real True Christians (TM) in the first place. Don't you realize that many of those who have fallen away have wounded spirits and are in need of compassion, instead of a kick in the teeth?!? Instead of driving them away more, look at things from the other end and think that just maybe, after they've fallen away from Christianity for a time, they will return. After all, once saved, always saved, eh?

...back to medicating the flu...

 

[Zaac]

Unfortunately, faith seems to be the substitute for us who were not blessed with some sort of divine proof instead. Who knows what the world would be like today if more people had the same kind of transformative direct revelation as Saul, let alone a relationship like the disciples. Certainly makes me question why God would take a message with such life-or-death importance and allow it to spread across the globe so slowly.

Fortunately God has said how ALL are saved.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

And stop beating on Selfinflicted; the tone and content of your posts make you look like a bully.

Maneki, go play.

I think I've decided that my issue with the once-saved, always-saved idea lies more with certain people's take on the idea than the idea itself: I'm tired of people using the idea to mean that if someone falls away, they never were Real True Christians (TM) in the first place. Don't you realize that many of those who have fallen away have wounded spirits and are in need of compassion, instead of a kick in the teeth?!? Instead of driving them away more, look at things from the other end and think that just maybe, after they've fallen away from Christianity for a time, they will return. After all, once saved, always saved, eh?

...back to medicating the flu...

well pat yourself on the back now that you'vegotten YOUR problem off your chest.