Why does God care?

[Zaac]

This has bothered me for awhile. I've been wondering why it is that people constantly talk about how God is going to destroy America and/or the world because of our growing acceptance of homosexuality. Well, God didn't destroy the world during the Holocaust, so what makes people think he cares more about homosexuality?

Does this strike anyone else as a bit...off, morally?

Why would this be an issue of morality?

 

[Zaac]

I don't think God cares about what goes on in the bedrooms of two people in love. At all.

Why would a God who loves you not care what's going on in your bedroom?

Are there other parts of your life that He doesn't care about?

 

[Zaac]

So are we in agreement that there are more important issues that need to be dealt with before we can argue incessantly about who's screwing who and how?

God has already dealt with this sin issue. When He is ready, this sin is gonna be tossed into the lake of fire with the rest of sin, death and the debbil.

 

[Zaac]

If anything I believe the Divinity would applaud the couple for making the world just a little bit better by loving one another. Spreading love is important, lol, IMO.

Love and fornication are not the same thing.

 

[Zaac]

Because whilst we are getting all worked up about the terribly naughty act of bonking someone of the same sex, it provides the perfect excuse to ignore our abuses of the third world, people trafficking, genocide, wars, poverty in our own nation, child abuses going on under our noses, a substandard education system, elderly people living alone for weeks at a time without visitors, the rape of our natural resources, global warming, our abuse of immigrant labour and willingness to make them work on next to no pay, the people in society who have no friends, ethnic cleansing, the existence of Nuclear Missiles, racial and sexual divides still being in place in our society . . . .

Oddly enough, in my Bible, it was the latter things that Jesus spoke out against, and which receive most time in the Bible. For instance, the Bible has around 900 verses telling us to look after the poor otherwise we are failing in our worship to God.

But heck, we just ignore that truth - those 5 verses that say homosexuality provide such a nice excuse for us to vent our archaic egotistical self-righteous prejudices and also allow us to get out of doing the much more difficult job of following what God wants from the church.

So you see, WorldFriction, it is the perfect compromise!

So why would the frequency with which it was spoken make it anymore or less wrong if God has said one time to not do it?

 

[flicka]

Maybe God is just giving us more time to accept and follow Him

US? There are new people brought into the world every minute, it makes no sense to continually create new people who only have a brief amount of time to arrivie at the correct conclusion before dying. Continuing on with the world that he has already decided to destroy in senseless.

Such love and care is hard for many to accept but it is real and wonderful. As far as where God came from the only thing I can say is that He always was. That is simple to say but I don’t think humans with their limited brain capacity can really wrap there minds around that, I know I can’t.

Of course you can't. It's obvious by the way you fill in the holes. Love and care? That's not even what I was questioning. And saying "he always was" isn't saying anything. You believe everything must have a creator then that must also apply to God. There is no getting around that, you just choose to ignore it so you can feel warm and fuzzy.

 

[bunced]

So why would the frequency with which it was spoken make it anymore or less wrong if God has said one time to not do it?

But once again you are missing what I said, whether intentionally or not, I don't know

I am not saying it is wrong - I am saying the amount of effort and energy the church, especially the right wing fundamental church in America, gives the issue of homosexuality is disproportional to the amount of time that it is mentioned in the Bible, and disproportional to an immoral level, because whilst doing that, the church is failing to do the work where God's heart is really at.

And I think that is the greatest failure of the church today - to get so worked up with the issue of homosexuality which is, let's face it, often used to vent on one's own prejudices and insecurities and a failure to do the work which God ordained us to do on Earth.

Parable of the sheep and the goats, anyone? Most of Isaiah, anyone?

No, let's not worry about those - we can have a good old rant about gay sex instead

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Love and fornication are not the same thing.

What if the homosexual couple were married or in a long-term committed relationship or a civil union?

 

[Westvleteren]

And one question from the OP which has not been answered yet -- and one that I find incredibly important in American life -- why do the sins of individuals doom the entire country?

If every hair on my head is numbered, why can God not see the difference between people who sin and people who don't?

 

[Zaac]

But once again you are missing what I said, whether intentionally or not, I don't know

I am not saying it is wrong - I am saying the amount of effort and energy the church, especially the right wing fundamental church in America, gives the issue of homosexuality is disproportional to the amount of time that it is mentioned in the Bible, and disproportional to an immoral level, because whilst doing that, the church is failing to do the work where God's heart is really at.

I didn't miss what you said. What I'm saying to you is the number of times that a sin is mentioned in God's Word doesn't play any part in the amount of time the church addresses the issue.

If God says it is a sin once, it should be addressed as often as the Church needs.

There seems to be a desire in this forum that the Church not address this issue at all. Homosexual fornication is no more immoral than telling a lie. The Church is capable of address all sin. This one gets so much coverage because many don't think their fornication to be sin.

And I think that is the greatest failure of the church today - to get so worked up with the issue of homosexuality which is, let's face it, often used to vent on one's own prejudices and insecurities and a failure to do the work which God ordained us to do on Earth.

God's Work on this earth is for us to deliver His Gospel and to use His Word as He says. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17

SOme would rather the Church neglected what God says to do and let unrepentant sin run amok without pointing it out to the evildoer( Ezekiel 3:18) or teaching, correcting, rebuking and training the Christian in righteousness.

 

[Zaac]

What if the homosexual couple were married or in a long-term committed relationship or a civil union?

The homosexual couple can attempt to set up all the man made exceptions to legitimize sin that they like.

Homosexual sex is fornication.

 

[Zaac]

And one question from the OP which has not been answered yet -- and one that I find incredibly important in American life -- why do the sins of individuals doom the entire country?

Refer to the Bible and the many times that God exacted His wrath upon disobedient countries because its people had turned from Him.

If every hair on my head is numbered, why can God not see the difference between people who sin and people who don't?

He can. But ALL sin.

 

[Westvleteren]

Refer to the Bible and the many times that God exacted His wrath upon disobedient countries because its people had turned from Him.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Bible says He does it; I just want to know why. What does it gain him to punish entire nations of otherwise obedient believers for the sake of the few bad apples?

He's not winning converts by love, this way, He's ruling by fear. Why does He want converts gained in that fashion?

 

[bunced]

If God says it is a sin once, it should be addressed as often as the Church needs.

Excellent - then you are announcing in your church an immediate policy to address the sins of greed in the West, of human rights abuses, rape of the Third World, rape of natural resources, abuse of immigrant labour, our exploitation of those in lower classes in our nations, our failure to act to stop genocide and atrocities, our failure to help broker a peace between warring nations, the existence of nuclear missiles? Is your church going to be appointing people to go out on Friday and Saturday nights into the pubs and the clubs and the city centres to help young people who have drunk too much to get home safely and to provide a listening ear without the need to get on a soapbox and judge every detail of these people's lives? Is it going to have a team dedicated to helping people to break the cycle of poverty? What about a network of people who can go and sit with the elderly and lonely in our communities and give them some value? What about temporary homes for the homeless?

Or is it still gonna be homosexuality and abortion only? After all - they're safe issues aren't they. Fighting injustice, poverty and loving peoples in sacrificial ways is such a chore

Because God's hearts through the Scriptures seems to be on the former list. And he even goes as far as to say that while we neglect our duties of care, we fail in our worship to him.

I am not for one moment saying that the Church should not focus on personal morality too. But what I am saying, and what I won't apologise for, is that we have our priorities 100% upside down with the way we treat the world and the message we give the world and the message we preach. And that is the gravest crime of the church in the 21st Century. We have missed our calling to be a radically shaped body of action for good, as we see in the model of the early church and have instead become a talking-house where we can all rant about our pet sins. Well, unfortunately, that wasn't the action of the early church - they were in situations, sharing love without prior necessity of someone living a good lifestyle, giving material and practical help to people and standing up against the authorities of their day when it came to issues of injustice. Can the modern church really look at itself and say it is faithful to our calling?

Of course not - we just do gay sex

Truly tragic

 

[Zaac]

There's no doubt in my mind that the Bible says He does it; I just want to know why.

Because they have turned from Him to something else.

What does it gain him to punish entire nations of otherwise obedient believers for the sake of the few bad apples?

How many nations of otherwise obedient believers do you know let alone ones with just a few bad apples?

He's not winning converts by love, this way, He's ruling by fear. Why does He want converts gained in that fashion?

He's ruling by Holiness and His judgment is ALWAYS righteous.

We are ALL deserving of death and destruction at His hands. But He has provided His Son as the sacrifice for all to either accept or reject. No man has anexcuse to not have accepted Christ. As a result, should a Holy righteous God choose to destroy all the inhabitants of a country, He is justified in doing so because all have sinned and fallen short of His glory.

 

[selfinflikted]

We are ALL deserving of death and destruction at His hands. But He has provided His Son as the sacrifice for all to either accept or reject. No man has anexcuse to not have accepted Christ. As a result, should a Holy righteous God choose to destroy all the inhabitants of a country, He is justified in doing so because all have sinned and fallen short of His glory.

The bolded part above is just wrong. This is what's the matter with a lot of people today (religious fanatics). I do not believe we all deserve death. I do not believe most "deserve" it. Maybe a few do, maybe they don't - it's not for me to say. Anyway, this whole "filthy rags" "we deserve nothing more than death" stuff is psychologically unhealthy, and probably borders on neuroses. I refuse to believe for one second that I "deserve" death, and I'm sorry you and others feel that way, Zaac. It must be a struggle to get through life feeling this way.

 

[bunced]

SOme would rather the Church neglected what God says to do and let unrepentant sin run amok without pointing it out to the evildoer( Ezekiel 3:18) or teaching, correcting, rebuking and training the Christian in righteousness.

You said it yourself, Zaac - it is the Christian we should be training in righteousness. What good is it shouting about this sin or that perversion to a world that isn't interested because it doesn't acknowledge God as the source of a love-based obedience. But we should be sharing God's love with the world, through the words we say and by the way we act out God's love through extreme and radical social action fuelled by love that turns communities upside down.

 

[Zaac]

Excellent - then you are announcing in your church an immediate policy to address the sins of greed in the West, of human rights abuses, rape of the Third World, rape of natural resources, abuse of immigrant labour, our exploitation of those in lower classes in our nations, our failure to act to stop genocide and atrocities, our failure to help broker a peace between warring nations, the existence of nuclear missiles?

Does God's Word speak to these things or are some just issues that you think should be sin?

These things taken into account, a Christ honoring Church can still address homosexual/heterosexual fornication while speaking to these other issues too.

Or is it still gonna be homosexuality and abortion only?

If Churches spread it around, would it make homosexual/heterosexual fornication any less of a sin?

Because God's hearts through the Scriptures seems to be on the former list. And he even goes as far as to say that while we neglect our duties of care, we fail in our worship to him.

Do we show that we care or love our neighbor as ourself by allowing him to continue in sin that leads to death?

God is a God of love. His Word says 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6

If you love Him,you will know Him. And if you know Him, you will keep His commands. A HUGE part of this love of which you speaks demands your obedience to His Commandments.

 

[Zaac]

The bolded part above is just wrong.

Why? You don't think you've done anything bad enough to warrant your death and destruction?

This is what's the matter with a lot of people today (religious fanatics). I do not believe we all deserve death. I do not believe most "deserve" it.

Why not?

Maybe a few do, maybe they don't - it's not for me to say.

It was for you to say maybe a few. Why maybe a few and not all? By what method/manner of judgment do you propose that we decide who that few is?

Anyway, this whole "filthy rags" "we deserve nothing more than death" stuff is psychologically unhealthy, and probably borders on neuroses.

It is what it is. Like you, most people don't like to hear that they are deserving of death. But unless you go through the ONE who has paid the price to get you out of Hell, you will pay the ultimate price for your sin.

I refuse to believe for one second that I "deserve" death, and I'm sorry you and others feel that way, Zaac. It must be a struggle to get through life feeling this way.

Why do you refuse to believe it? When you break laws here on this earth, do you not have to pay a price?

And believe me, it's no struggle for God has provided the Way for us to not worry about death. Because of His Son taking on the death that I and ALL men deserve, I don't have to worry about death. I have eternal life in the presence of Jesus Christ.

 

[bunced]

Does God's Word speak to these things or are some just issues that you think should be sin?

No, providing you tear our vast swathes of Isaiah, the Minor Prophets, the Book of Acts, half the Epistles, the Gospels, nearly all the words of Jesus and some of the Psalms. Then you have successfully removed all uncomfortable references to radical loving and these issues being sins. Mind you, the Bible would begin to look a bit dull then . . .

These things taken into account, a Christ honoring Church can still address homosexual/heterosexual fornication while speaking to these other issues too.

A point I have been maintaining all along - what I have always been saying is our balance is 100% wrong.

If Churches spread it around, would it make homosexual/heterosexual fornication any less of a sin?

No. I haven't said that it would

Do we show that we care or love our neighbor as ourself by allowing him to continue in sin that leads to death?

People aren't gonna care what is called a sin or not until they experience something of the depth of God's love, and the church is the vehicle by which God expresses His love. We are his hands and feet on Earth. Until people experience the fact that there is something radically different for those who have their lives in Jesus, that their actions and priorities are turned upside down and that they have a Christ-like concern for those around them, then no, they are not going to care.

A HUGE part of this love of which you speaks demands your obedience to His Commandments.

Again, something I have never denied, so I am slightly confused as to why you keep getting hung up on this point.

Just to clear up any confusion:

I do not say that we should not preach God's morality. I am saying that we have the balance 100% wrong, and we should do much much more on social action and God's justice and God's compassion and practically sharing God's love, as was the model in the Early Church, rather than become a hate diatribe on Homosexuality only. That isn't Christianity - that is just prejudice. Christianity demands a radical Church that is willing to act to change the society in which it finds itself for the better