Why does God care?

[uberd00b]

False teachers should be called out though, you can't let souls be deceived.

Hey! That's our job!

 

[selfinflikted]

That's just it. You're not perfect.

I never said I was, but thanks for pointing that out yet again.

No one is and that's why we need a Savior.

We need a saviour to save us from our imperfection? I dunno... I always believed that peoples' imperfection is what makes them, you know, people. I'm completely complacent with my imperfection, and I still do not feel that those imperfections make me deserving of death.

Jesus Christ is the oly one who is perfect. And it is only by looking through a perfect Jesus who has paid the price for our sin that any of us can be in God's presence.

"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Really, think about that.

I don't get to put anyone to death.

Thank goodness for that. I'm sure it would be a sad state of affairs if that power was given to people like you, SoF, MB, etc.

Your white lie is still sin worthy of death.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I simply do not agree.

Even your white liecan't be in the presence of a HOLY God.

I've never been in the presence of a "Holy God". Perhaps you'd like to introduce me?

Thats quite a gamble. Risking your eternal soul because you don't have evidence that death is the end.

Yeah, in your eyes. The way I see it, a god who is "good" wouldn't expect me to believe in him blindly - risking eternaltorment - while he goes waltzing blithely throughout the universe like some cosmic Billie Burke while, in the meantime, we have rapists, serial killers, famine, and all sorts of ills down here on earth. Nah, I figure that if there was a god, or at least one as you describe, he'd have the common decency to at least drop in and say hello.

You can believe whatever you want. The truth has been delivered.

It doesn't bother me at all that we differ in our beliefs, as we each have the right to our own. It just always perturbs me that you people pass it off as absolute truth, when you cannot possibly actually know. I assume this helps you "keep the faith", if you repeat it enough.

You're confused. Judgment day is yet to come. And there will indeed be a real judge.

So they've said for a couple thousand years... *yawn*. The story hasn't changed and I'm not getting any younger...

 

[selfinflikted]

((((((((((Selfinflikted)))))))))))

I've agreed with everything you've said. Good to see you again!

oh hai!

Yeah, I've been away for a week or so, been sick over the holidays. bleh. /pity party

 

[Zaac]

You know, God is love....
He doesn't take pleasure in condemning people.
Maybe a little compassion would be more likely to draw people to Him..

Just a thought!

Did I condemn someone? Worldfriction knows all too well that false teaching will be pointed out as such. If he is condemned, it is God Who will condemn him.

 

[Zaac]

We need a saviour to save us from our imperfection?

Yep. When your imperfection standsin the way of you being in a Holy God's presence? Yes you need a Saviour.

I dunno... I always believed that peoples' imperfection is what makes them, you know, people. I'm completely complacent with my imperfection, and I still do not feel that those imperfections make me deserving of death.

You should be complacent with your sin. You're not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. You're not God. HE KNOWS that your sin is worthy of death.

Why would you, the person running around doing whatever you want think that your sin makes you worthy of death?

There are plenty of folks on earth who feel that they shouldn't be fined for breaking the law too.

"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Really, think about that.

There's nothing to think about. God makes known why He is rejected.

I'm sorry you feel that way, I simply do not agree.

It's God's law. You don't have to agree. It is what it is. Your white lie is as unHoly as the most heinous crime your mind can conceive.

To a HOLY God, you stained in your white lies are just as unworthy of being in His presence as is an unrepentant Hitler orchestrating the deaths of millions.

I've never been in the presence of a "Holy God". Perhaps you'd like to introduce me?

I know you haven't. Introducing you to Him requires faith that you seem to be lacking.

Yeah, in your eyes. The way I see it, a god who is "good" wouldn't expect me to believe in him blindly - risking eternaltorment - while he goes waltzing blithely throughout the universe like some cosmic Billie Burke while, in the meantime, we have rapists, serial killers, famine, and all sorts of ills down here on earth. Nah, I figure that if there was a god, or at least one as you describe, he'd have the common decency to at least drop in and say hello.

You've got the things of nature testifying to Him. That's not blindly. That's you being blind.

It doesn't bother me at all that we differ in our beliefs, as we each have the right to our own. It just always perturbs me that you people pass it off as absolute truth, when you cannot possibly actually know. I assume this helps you "keep the faith", if you repeat it enough.

If we cannot possibly know what absolute truth is, what does your statement we could not possibly know mean?

So they've said for a couple thousand years... *yawn*. The story hasn't changed and I'm not getting any younger...

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2Peter 3:3-7

 

[TheManeki]

Did I condemn someone? Worldfriction knows all too well that false teaching will be pointed out as such. If he is condemned, it is God Who will condemn him.

Interesting response. This "It's not me, it's God" type of response seems to fall into a spectrum of responses that are bookended by:

• "I have nothing against that, and in fact wish there was nothing wrong with it, but (my interpretation of) the Bible forbids it for some reason, so I have to be against it."
• "I don't like that, but need a reason to justify my feelings, so I'll attribute things to (my interpretation of) the Bible."

I use "(my interpretation of) the Bible" in both cases

• Because it seems that the people at the former end of the spectrum seem unaware that what they've been sold on is merely an interpretation.
• Because the people in the latter end of the spectrum seem to espouse an interpretation that reinforces their feelings in spite of contradicting reality, forcing them to pretend that it's direct revelation and not an interpretation.

I'm hoping that Zaac is closer to the former end than the latter end. Those on the former end are easier to educate -- they already see that homosexuals are not boogeymen. They have observed the disparity between the interpretation and reality. They just have to get past their fundamental assumption that the only interpretation of the Bible is what they have always been fed. Changing such a fundamental assumption can still be difficult, but it is possible.

 

[selfinflikted]

Yep. When your imperfection standsin the way of you being in a Holy God's presence? Yes you need a Saviour.

Why go through all the rigamarole? If god wanted us perfect so that we could stand in his presence, why didn't he just make us as such? I'm quite familiar with the story, and it just doesn't make sense to me. It just seems like a very long, contrived, tedious and not to mention barbaric process that could have just been avoided from the get-go. Something just isn't right with that.

You should be complacent with your sin. You're not indwelled by the Holy Spirit. You're not God. HE KNOWS that your sin is worthy of death.

For starters, I never said I was complacent with my "sin". I do not equate sin with imperfection. I simply don't subscribe to that nonsense. Once again, imperfection =/= sin.

Why would you, the person running around doing whatever you want think that your sin makes you worthy of death?

Another common misconception about atheists, or non-christians for that matter, is that we "run around doing whatever [we] want" when that simply isn't the case. I do not need your god to dictate my morals, to tell me what's "right" or "wrong".

There are plenty of folks on earth who feel that they shouldn't be fined for breaking the law too.

Yeah, and they would be wrong (unless of course, there was something wrong with the law in the first place - i.e. sodomy laws).

There's nothing to think about. God makes known why He is rejected.

Indeed. He must be the universal champion of hide-and-go-seek. He is rejected because he leaves no trace of his alleged existence.

It's God's law.

..which is meaningless to me.

You don't have to agree.

I don't.

It is what it is.

Imaginary.

Your white lie is as unHoly as the most heinous crime your mind can conceive.

That's where your god and I don't see eye to eye.

To a HOLY God, you stained in your white lies are just as unworthy of being in His presence as is an unrepentant Hitler orchestrating the deaths of millions.

Then your god is not worthy of any worship.

I know you haven't. Introducing you to Him requires faith that you seem to be lacking.

So first, I have to believe in god to make him real? Man, I'm trying that mind trick out with my wallet right now.

You've got the things of nature testifying to Him. That's not blindly. That's you being blind.

No, that's you being intellectually dishonest. The things of nature testify only to the things of nature. Nothing more, nothing less. You've inserted god into nature yourself.

If we cannot possibly know what absolute truth is, what does your statement we could not possibly know mean?

What I mean is, you can claim that you "know" god, or "walk with god" or any of the myriad of other christian catch phrases like that, but the truth of the matter is you do not. You do not actually have a relationship with god, you certainly don't "walk" with him, and you can't "know" him in the personal sense either. It's all just metaphor designed to keep your own faith strong. Personally, I would need more than that.

 

[Criada]

Did I condemn someone? Worldfriction knows all too well that false teaching will be pointed out as such. If he is condemned, it is God Who will condemn him.

She, actually... but anyway - God doesn't condemn anyone.
We condemn ourselves - He has done everything in His power to redeem and save us!
Because he loves us... even when we get things wrong.

 

[Zaac]

Interesting response. This "It's not me, it's God" type of response seems to fall into a spectrum of responses that are bookended by:

• "I have nothing against that, and in fact wish there was nothing wrong with it, but (my interpretation of) the Bible forbids it for some reason, so I have to be against it."
• "I don't like that, but need a reason to justify my feelings, so I'll attribute things to (my interpretation of) the Bible."

I use "(my interpretation of) the Bible" in both cases

• Because it seems that the people at the former end of the spectrum seem unaware that what they've been sold on is merely an interpretation.
• Because the people in the latter end of the spectrum seem to espouse an interpretation that reinforces their feelings in spite of contradicting reality, forcing them to pretend that it's direct revelation and not an interpretation.

I'm hoping that Zaac is closer to the former end than the latter end. Those on the former end are easier to educate -- they already see that homosexuals are not boogeymen. They have observed the disparity between the interpretation and reality. They just have to get past their fundamental assumption that the only interpretation of the Bible is what they have always been fed. Changing such a fundamental assumption can still be difficult, but it is possible.

And as long as The Maneki sees homosexual fornication as anything less than the sin God's Word shows it to be, he too will continue to be recognized as a false teacher.

 

[TheManeki]

And as long as The Maneki sees homosexual fornication as anything less than the sin God's Word shows it to be, he too will continue to be recognized as a false teacher.

That particular post certainly added a lot of substance to the debate.

 

[Criada]

Another common misconception about atheists, or non-christians for that matter, is that we "run around doing whatever [we] want" when that simply isn't the case. I do not need your god to dictate my morals, to tell me what's "right" or "wrong".

Totally true. I know many atheists who are far more moral than some of the Christians I know. Not perfect, though, and that is the issue.
(I have few misconceptions of atheists.. i was one for a long tkime. And a great mny of my friends are!)

What I mean is, you can claim that you "know" god, or "walk with god" or any of the myriad of other christian catch phrases like that, but the truth of the matter is you do not. You do not actually have a relationship with god, you certainly don't "walk" with him, and you can't "know" him in the personal sense either. It's all just metaphor designed to keep your own faith strong. Personally, I would need more than that.

So did I.
Thing is, He convinced me.
That's all -- am not going to try to convince you, because I can't. My experience is not yours.
But - just, please, remember that some of us don't just believe because of our upbringing, or because we want to convince ourselves! In fact, many of us tried very hard not to believe..


Sorry, WF, completely off topic!

 

[selfinflikted]

So did I.
Thing is, He convinced me.
That's all -- am not going to try to convince you, because I can't. My experience is not yours.
But - just, please, remember that some of us don't just believe because of our upbringing, or because we want to convince ourselves! In fact, many of us tried very hard not to believe..

Then I envy you. If god is real, and you do walk and talk with him in a non-metaphorical sense, I'm insanely jealous and at the same time angry. I tried to know god for years, and I got nothing. I called out to god, and was answered with silence. If what you say is true, why will he reveal himself to some and not others?

EDIT: It is this very conundrum that leads me to believe it is all a hoax. That, or god is not the god described by so many..

 

[Criada]

Then I envy you. If god is real, and you do walk and talk with him in a non-metaphorical sense, I'm insanely jealous and at the same time angry. I tried to know god for years, and I got nothing. I called out to god, and was answered with silence. If what you say is true, why will he reveal himself to some and not others?

EDIT: It is this very conundrum that leads me to believe it is all a hoax. That, or god is not the god described by so many..

I honestly don't know or understand.
I can only speak from my own experience... and I know that it is real.
I am sorry that you have had such a different experience... but, there is time.
And I believe that He won't ignore anyone who is truly seeking...
I am praying for you... because I know that it makes a difference!

 

[Zaac]

So did I.
Thing is, He convinced me.
That's all -- am not going to try to convince you, because I can't. My experience is not yours.
But - just, please, remember that some of us don't just believe because of our upbringing, or because we want to convince ourselves! In fact, many of us tried very hard not to believe..

Precisely Criada. That has been said repeatedly and a lot of Christians need to understand that you can't convince anyone. That's God's Work.

The Truth of His Word is juxtaposed to the wrong of the evildoer because He says to do so. There can be no repentance unless there is a recognition of sin. Surely we will hear several times that the Word of God means nothing to them because they are not Christians, but God's Word that makes men free will do what He intends for it to do which is why His people are to GO! and let the Truth that is His Gospel be heard.

 

[selfinflikted]

Precisely Criada. That has been said repeatedly and a lot of Christians need to understand that you can't convince anyone. That's God's Work.

Then so far, your god has failed. Miserably.

 

[Zaac]

Then I envy you. If god is real, and you do walk and talk with him in a non-metaphorical sense, I'm insanely jealous and at the same time angry. I tried to know god for years, and I got nothing. I called out to god, and was answered with silence. If what you say is true, why will he reveal himself to some and not others?

EDIT: It is this very conundrum that leads me to believe it is all a hoax. That, or god is not the god described by so many..

Self, it's been said before. But coming into a relationship with Christ is a bit of a Catch-22. You have to step out in faith in order to get to know Him.

He gives Truth to those who really want it. And if a person comes to Him broken understanding why they are so desperately in need of a Saviour, He will hear that faithful cry and answer.

 

[selfinflikted]

Self, it's been said before. But coming into a relationship with Christ is a bit of a Catch-22. You have to step out in faith in order to get to know Him.

He gives Truth to those who really want it. And if a person comes to Him broken understanding why they are so desperately in need of a Saviour, He will hear that faithful cry and answer.

No, he won't. Or didn't. Unless IQ's just dropped sharply in the last 15 minutes, I thought you would understand me when I said I'd been there and done that. Maybe I didn't try hard enough? I can tell you with certainty right now though, unless something insanely HUGE happens to change my mind, I won't go back to that place - ever.

 

[Zaac]

Then so far, your god has failed. Miserably.

Self, it is absolutely impossible for God to fail. You have alluded to not thinking you were worthy of death because of some sin. Do you know how much sin we are all guilty of?

How can a HOLY GOD be in the presence of that which is unHOLY?

There is sin in your life that you don't even know is sin. And in order for God to be in relationship with us and be able to walk with us as He did with Adam and Eve in the Garden, that unholiness has to be made HOLY.

Jesus Christ has already done this. He has simply asked that we accept what He has done.

Man is sinful. There is no way to be in relationship with God until that sin is dealt with. And all Jesus is asking is will you accept what He has already done?

The gift is wrapped up and underneath the tree just waiting to be claimed. But He will not make us open it. He wants you to love Him because you CHOOSE to.

And choosing to love Him demands that you denounce ALL of your sin, even that which you think is insignificant, and accept his death on the Cross as the substitute for your own much warranted death.

Just remember, the sin has to be dealt with if you want to have a relationship with Him.

 

[Criada]

No, he won't. Or didn't. Unless IQ's just dropped sharply in the last 15 minutes, I thought you would understand me when I said I'd been there and done that. Maybe I didn't try hard enough? I can tell you with certainty right now though, unless something insanely HUGE happens to change my mind, I won't go back to that place - ever.

God, fortunately, is capable of the insanely huge..

 

[Zaac]

No, he won't. Or didn't. Unless IQ's just dropped sharply in the last 15 minutes, I thought you would understand me when I said I'd been there and done that. Maybe I didn't try hard enough? I can tell you with certainty right now though, unless something insanely HUGE happens to change my mind, I won't go back to that place - ever.

IQs are still the same. I understood exactly what you were saying. But based upon what you have said to me in recent conversations, it appears that no one ever told you why you haven't heard from Him.

The Bible says "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." Acts 20:21

There cannot be salvation without repentance. The sin MUST be dealt with.