Why does God care?

[Zaac]

You said it yourself, Zaac - it is the Christian we should be training in righteousness. What good is it shouting about this sin or that perversion to a world that isn't interested because it doesn't acknowledge God as the source of a love-based obedience.

Bunced, the Word of God says in Ezekiel 3:18-21 18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself."

We are commanded of God to point it out.

But we should be sharing God's love with the world, through the words we say and by the way we act out God's love through extreme and radical social action fuelled by love that turns communities upside down.

i ask again, why is it a display of love to allow someone to continue doing the very thing that leads to their death and destruction?

Would you leave the child you loved playing in the middle of a busy intersection as a display of love?

 

[bunced]

Would you shout at said child and tell them how naughty they are without going over to them and showing them your love and your concern for them, and that the reason you are telling them you want them to be safe is because you love them and want the best for them?

We are commanded of God to point it out.

To a world that needs to be shown that God loves them before they will listen to God's commands. Anything else is blatantly silly. Which is my whole argument in a nutshell

 

[Zaac]

No, providing you tear our vast swathes of Isaiah, the Minor Prophets, the Book of Acts, half the Epistles, the Gospels, nearly all the words of Jesus and some of the Psalms. Then you have successfully removed all uncomfortable references to radical loving and these issues being sins. Mind you, the Bible would begin to look a bit dull then . . .

Was that a yes or a no?

A point I have been maintaining all along - what I have always been saying is our balance is 100% wrong.

Why need there be a balance in addressing sin?

People aren't gonna care what is called a sin or not until they experience something of the depth of God's love, and the church is the vehicle by which God expresses His love. We are his hands and feet on Earth. Until people experience the fact that there is something radically different for those who have their lives in Jesus, that their actions and priorities are turned upside down and that they have a Christ-like concern for those around them, then no, they are not going to care.

And that is something that people will have to take to God in prayer. Some believe in doing the whole seeker sensitive bit and building relationships and saving the sharing of the Gospel for another time.

I am not so presumptuous as to conclude that God will allow me the time or another opportunity to share His Word that makes men free at a later date. With most homosexuals, you're not going to know what they are doing unless they tell you. The Church is addressing the issue now because there is a proliferation of gay sin affirming issues at the forefront of society.

And the church, for years...for decades hasn't spoken to the wrongdoing as God commands.

It is being addressed en masse now because those who would encourage others that this behavior is not a sin are now more vocal about it.

Again, something I have never denied, so I am slightly confused as to why you keep getting hung up on this point.

Just to clear up any confusion:

I do not say that we should not preach God's morality. I am saying that we have the balance 100% wrong, and we should do much much more on social action and God's justice and God's compassion and practically sharing God's love, as was the model in the Early Church, rather than become a hate diatribe on Homosexuality only.

It sounds like you deduced this based upon what you think is an imbalance. Sin is sin and should be addressed in the manner that God says to address it. And if folks are speaking errantly about homosexual fornication not being a sin more often than someone telling a lie, then Christians have to address the sin as it comes.

That's why it was said that homosexual fornication is being addressed more by the Church today and more vocally because those who would say that homosexual fornication is not a sin have become more vocal.

That isn't Christianity - that is just prejudice. Christianity demands a radical Church that is willing to act to change the society in which it finds itself for the better

You neglect that the early church had it's issues that it had to deal with also. For sure there were sin issues of that day that were just as predominant as is homosexual fornication today.

It is indeed a prejudice toward a Holy God and what He says to do.

 

[selfinflikted]

Why? You don't think you've done anything bad enough to warrant your death and destruction?

Absolutely not. And to hear you say this, I must admit, just sounds a little childish and silly. "Death and destruction" .. heh.

Why not?

I'm not sure how to answer this. Suffice it to say I just don't.

It was for you to say maybe a few. Why maybe a few and not all? By what method/manner of judgment do you propose that we decide who that few is?

The key word there was "maybe". Stretch your imagination for a second, Zaac. Wouldn't you suspect that someone who's ill - maybe so severely, painfully so - would deserve to just die instead of having to live a miserable existence in pain and agony? I know if I were in a situation similar, I would choose death.

It is what it is. Like you, most people don't like to hear that they are deserving of death. But unless you go through the ONE who has paid the price to get you out of Hell, you will pay the ultimate price for your sin.

I simply do not believe that. There's not one shred of evidence in this world to make me think this. No one has been able to provide me with any as of yet, and I don't suspect you can either.

Why do you refuse to believe it? When you break laws here on this earth, do you not have to pay a price?

Of course. There are reasons we have laws, Zaac. Sometimes, "God's Law" seems so arbitrary, or at the very least, outdated. There are reasons we should obey the law (man's law), and I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you. If one doesn't, one might find himself in jail - I can see that. I cannot see "hell". I don't know that there's one single person there, maybe you could show me?

And believe me, it's no struggle for God has provided the Way for us to not worry about death. Because of His Son taking on the death that I and ALL men deserve, I don't have to worry about death. I have eternal life in the presence of Jesus Christ.

I didn't mean "worry" about death - what I meant was, it must be a depressing existence to think that you are worthy of nothing more than "death and destruction by god's hand" (I still giggle, even when I say that). Have a little pride, a sense of a little self-worth. It won't hurt you.

 

[bunced]

Was that a yes or a no?

Tell you what, read it and find out

It sounds like you deduced this based upon what you think is an imbalance. Sin is sin and should be addressed in the manner that God says to address it. And if folks are speaking errantly about homosexual fornication not being a sin more often than someone telling a lie, then Christians have to address the sin as it comes.

That's why it was said that homosexual fornication is being addressed more by the Church today and more vocally because those who would say that homosexual fornication is not a sin have become more vocal.

No, I'd say the reason it was addressing homosexuality is it means minimum sacrificial output and comfortable Christianity.

I don't want to be called to comfortable Christianity - I want to be called to a radical Christianity and turn my society upside down. And that's where I believe Jesus to be.

And that is something that people will have to take to God in prayer. Some believe in doing the whole seeker sensitive bit and building relationships and saving the sharing of the Gospel for another time.

You seem to mistake speaking for sharing the gospel - they are two different things, though the former can be part of the latter, it is true.

I am not so presumptuous as to conclude that God will allow me the time or another opportunity to share His Word that makes men free at a later date. With most homosexuals, you're not going to know what they are doing unless they tell you. The Church is addressing the issue now because there is a proliferation of gay sin affirming issues at the forefront of society.

Along with all the other issues - which are resulting in the death in millions - which many in the church are not confronting. Odd inconsistency there

How can the church stand by and watch millions of lives being destroyed by the greed of the West, by War Lords, by powers - and say nothing but "gay sex is bad"

Beats me. They must be using a different version of the Bible

 

[Zaac]

Would you shout at said child and tell them how naughty they are without going over to them and showing them your love and your concern for them, and that the reason you are telling them you want them to be safe is because you love them and want the best for them?

I've never proposed or advocated that God's Truth be delivered in anything but His love.

To a world that needs to be shown that God loves them before they will listen to God's commands. Anything else is blatantly silly. Which is my whole argument in a nutshell

Yet many wonder why I say I don't debate people about God's Word in this forum or any other. Using this forum as the example, the Christian who does not want to debate God's truth, can only tell what God's Word says. Those who are really seeking the truth and an understanding of that truth will and will in turn get the opportunity to experience the love of which you speak.

Others will simply want to argue and say that the person who told them what God's Word says is hateful or bigoted and wonder why no empirical evidence is being provided to prove what was said.

It's difficult to see the kind of love of which you speak in the actions of those who tell others what God's Word says because the ones that it is being said to don't appreciate Bible Thumpas telling them what to do. But that's true of people in general.

 

[Zaac]

Tell you what, read it and find out

I did. Couldn't quite follow what you were trying to say.

No, I'd say the reason it was addressing homosexuality is it means minimum sacrificial output and comfortable Christianity.

Haven spent plenty of years in the know of many churches, I must say that the big issues addressed by the Church are family issues. Homosexual fornication rears its head from time to time, but it is not the dominat issue.

We are publicly speaking to homosexual fornication because it is publicly being spoken of.

I don't want to be called to comfortable Christianity - I want to be called to a radical Christianity and turn my society upside down. And that's where I believe Jesus to be.

Radical Christianity stands firmly on God's Word. Why do you think so many folks on here are upset that me and a hadnfull of other "Fundies" don't waffle or allow for any wiggleroom when it comes to God's Word? Plenty of Christians have become politically correct and adopted the popular stance. The radical Christians are the ones standing firmly on God's Word.

You seem to mistake speaking for sharing the gospel - they are two different things, though the former can be part of the latter, it is true.

Nope. As a Christian, the purpose in me ever speaking to a nonChristian is to witness Christ.

Along with all the other issues - which are resulting in the death in millions - which many in the church are not confronting. Odd inconsistency there

Not every church is the same. The Church is for the body of believers . And the things that are addressed are the things that are seen as a stumbling block to that Body.

But like I said, haven spent plenty of time in the know of many churches and pastors of these churches, the issues vary, and homosexual fornication gets far less attention than internet porn and adultery.

How can the church stand by and watch millions of lives being destroyed by the greed of the West, by War Lords, by powers - and say nothing but "gay sex is bad"

There are plenty of churches who aren't being the Church. But there are plenty that are. And the plenty that are can speak to sin AND address the sin of a modern society and how it affects the Body.

 

[Zaac]

Absolutely not. And to hear you say this, I must admit, just sounds a little childish and silly. "Death and destruction" .. heh.

Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever lusted over another person? Have you ever stolen anything in your life? Ever?

There is not a single person on the face of this earth who can answer no to any of those questions if they are being honest.

That would make you a lying, adultering, thief. Gosh that's only 3 commands. There's another 600+ in the Old Testament alone. You wanna try those too and see just how short you fall?

The Bible says 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:23-24

You fall just as short as the rest of us. But The remption of Jesus Christ is available for you too.

The key word there was "maybe". Stretch your imagination for a second, Zaac. Wouldn't you suspect that someone who's ill - maybe so severely, painfully so - would deserve to just die instead of having to live a miserable existence in pain and agony? I know if I were in a situation similar, I would choose death.

You're basing your supposition on death being the end. According to God's Word, you're either going to be in His presence or you will be in hell eternally separated from Him. The Bible says 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:6-7

I simply do not believe that. There's not one shred of evidence in this world to make me think this. No one has been able to provide me with any as of yet, and I don't suspect you can either.

I'm not supposed to provide that to ya. But I can guarantee you that there is a lot of stuff that you belive without a shred of evidence.

Of course. There are reasons we have laws, Zaac. Sometimes, "God's Law" seems so arbitrary, or at the very least, outdated.

But can't you say the same thing about man's laws? Outdated or not, you show up in court, the judge is going to pass judgment upon you in accordance with that law.

But God has provided a way for you not to have to worry about those seemingly arbitrary, outdated laws, and the penalty that comes for breaking them.

His Son Jesus Christ has taken on the sin of the World so that neither you nor I would have to pay the death price. So that you would not have to die and be eternally separated from God, His Son died and took on your sin.

Now all you have to do is accept His pardon. He's done everything. Do you want it? Or are you willing to wait and think that there will be no price to pay for sin?

There are reasons we should obey the law (man's law), and I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you. If one doesn't, one might find himself in jail - I can see that. I cannot see "hell". I don't know that there's one single person there, maybe you could show me?

If you can see jail for breaking the law, how can you not see hell for breaking God's law? You do realize that jail mirrors hell in the same way that breaking man's law mirrors breaking God's law.

I didn't mean "worry" about death - what I meant was, it must be a depressing existence to think that you are worthy of nothing more than "death and destruction by god's hand" (I still giggle, even when I say that). Have a little pride, a sense of a little self-worth. It won't hurt you.

The Bible says Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction...

 

[selfinflikted]

Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever lusted over another person? Have you ever stolen anything in your life? Ever?

There is not a single person on the face of this earth who can answer no to any of those questions if they are being honest.

That would make you a lying, adultering, thief. Gosh that's only 3 commands. There's another 600+ in the Old Testament alone. You wanna try those too and see just how short you fall?

You fall just as short as the rest of us. But The remption of Jesus Christ is available for you too.

I must've missed the parts where I said I was perfect...

That aside, you'd have me put to death for telling a white lie? Maybe looking at someone and going, "Gosh, he's hot!"? Man, you're seriously twisted.

You're basing your supposition on death being the end.

I sure am, unless you can show me otherwise...

I'm not supposed to provide that to ya. But I can guarantee you that there is a lot of stuff that you belive without a shred of evidence.

Oh that's right, I forgot. You're in the habit of telling us we're doomed to the "death and destruction" (again, giggling a bit here) of god's wrath, yet you've got nothing to back it up. Tell me why again I should believe you?

But can't you say the same thing about man's laws? Outdated or not, you show up in court, the judge is going to pass judgment upon you in accordance with that law.

Yes, but I know there's a real judge. Yours is invisible, doesn't talk, and holds his alleged judgement until some nebulous day that was supposed to have already come and gone. Again, I'll stick to reality.

<snipped for irrelevance>Now all you have to do is accept His pardon. He's done everything. Do you want it? Or are you willing to wait and think that there will be no price to pay for sin?

Pascal's Wager much? I'll pass, thanks - I'm not much of a gambling man.

If you can see jail for breaking the law, how can you not see hell for breaking God's law?

Wait.. you can see hell? Hmm.. do you hear voices too?

You do realize that jail mirrors hell in the same way that breaking man's law mirrors breaking God's law.

I realize the "concept" of hell vaguely mirrors this... but I thought hell was supposed to be eternal, where prison/jail is a finite amount of time.

 

[Ramona]

((((((((((Selfinflikted)))))))))))

I've agreed with everything you've said. Good to see you again!

 

[Zaac]

I must've missed the parts where I said I was perfect...

That's just it. You're not perfect. No one is and that's why we need a Savior. Jesus Christ is the oly one who is perfect. And it is only by looking through a perfect Jesus who has paid the price for our sin that any of us can be in God's presence.

That aside, you'd have me put to death for telling a white lie? Maybe looking at someone and going, "Gosh, he's hot!"? Man, you're seriously twisted.

I don't get to put anyone to death. Your white lie is still sin worthy of death . Even your white liecan't be in the presence of a HOLY God.

I sure am, unless you can show me otherwise...

Thats quite a gamble. Risking your eternal soul because you don't have evidence that death is the end.

Oh that's right, I forgot. You're in the habit of telling us we're doomed to the "death and destruction" (again, giggling a bit here) of god's wrath, yet you've got nothing to back it up. Tell me why again I should believe you?

You can believe whatever you want. The truth has been delivered.

Yes, but I know there's a real judge. Yours is invisible, doesn't talk, and holds his alleged judgement until some nebulous day that was supposed to have already come and gone. Again, I'll stick to reality.

You're confused. Judgment day is yet to come. And there will indeed be a real judge.

 

[Zaac]

((((((((((Selfinflikted)))))))))))

I've agreed with everything you've said. Good to see you again!

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 2 Peter 2:17-19

 

[invisible trousers]

Is it really necessary to do this, to insult non-believers?

When someone has decided there isn't a God, or is in a state of flux regarding their religious beliefs, is insulting them the best thing to do?

The Good News exists right here and right now, but I don't see any evidence of it from your supposed teachings.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Exactly. With such horrible things going on in the world that people seem oblivious to, I don't think God cares about what goes on in the bedrooms of two people in love. At all.

Why wouldn't he? What constitutes as "in love"? It's so temporary.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

And one question from the OP which has not been answered yet -- and one that I find incredibly important in American life -- why do the sins of individuals doom the entire country?

If every hair on my head is numbered, why can God not see the difference between people who sin and people who don't?

Where are these people that don't sin, I'd love to meet them, perhaps even believe in them.

 

[Criada]

17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 2 Peter 2:17-19

You know, God is love....
He doesn't take pleasure in condemning people.
Maybe a little compassion would be more likely to draw people to Him..

Just a thought!

 

[Apollo Celestio]

False teachers should be called out though, you can't let souls be deceived.

 

[Criada]

I don't see false teaching here, just honest enquiry...

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I don't see false teaching here, just honest enquiry...

Depends on the eyes I guess. But things contrary to God's truth, and that say that his truth are lies..ARE lies and false teaching. ^^

 

[Criada]

I don't think anyone said that...
But - don't want to start an argument, brother - specially not with someone I generally agree with.
God bless you.