Why does god allow suffering?

[AgnosticDude777]

PLEASE FORGIVE MY LACK OF PROOF READING lol

God is love, but He is also wrath, Judgment, and hatred... I hold forth the Gospel to be that the Cross took away the enmity that exists in God's own mind between fallen mankind and Himself,

But see, that's the problem. How does omnibenevolence (getting sick of the term myself, lol) reconcile with enmity and hatred being a part of God or his creation? God is benevolent, right? Or is that kind of a denominational thing?

Not the way I understand it. I cover that in my first post; please clarify if something's still not clear as I covered a lot of ground there.

It's all good,. this is the quote i'm refereing to:

What God is NOT is the definition of evil, and also exists. Since God is perfectly just, and He chose that His creation would be an expression of Himself, evil HAD to be part of it.

God is not evil, and is all that exists? God is all good, not evil. His creations are an expression of his essential nature... where does evil fit into that?

You're right. It does seem very complicated so far. I'm glad it's not a dumb question, I was sort of hoping it was, lol. Thank you again Raze. I appreciate a response that doesn't presuppose I can't follow from A to B, or that I don't understand my own question.
But yes, God is not completely knowable by human conception, if I understand. I agree. That's part of agnosticism if i recall. defintions, blah

Okay, so 'bad' is complicated and somewhat intangible, but does that make it benevolent?

God still knows our iniquities and Judges us for those too.

Why would God judge me for something he designed me to do? He knew I was going to fail him, he made me and all of us that way: but why? If I were a truly immoral person, I guess it wouldn't matter, because i'm merely a marionette in God's play, doing his work in a sense.

Originally Posted by AgnosticDude777

Do you mean that God's morality is at least somewhat incomprehesible to humans,
​

I didn't say that but

You said God is entirely good I thought. And then say "this (god's goodness?) is completely independent of what I consider to be good, or not good." Which to me implies that what is Good to God may not be to you, and thus a relative nature to morality. Which would solve the question of omnibenevolence ("he is, in his own enigmatic way") but makes me wonder why a being that doesn't understand/empathize with human suffering is worthy of deference?

Morality isn't a word He uses

A huge facet of the Bible and many religious texts is that of moral didacticism. I find the distinction irrelevant, personally, although I don't argue that that is not the word that was used.

"God tempts no man, and cannot be tempted by evil."

But he essentially orchestrates temptation via Satan?

We do not exist as God initially created us. This holds true for the rest of this world as well; the point being that sin is far more awful than seems likely to us.

But why would god do that? I don't doubt the awfulness of sin and spiritual death, but why do they exist?

The optimist in me says you're concerned with these things because God is beginning to show you the awfulness of your own sin, and this is the beginning of God showing Himself to YOU! I mean, why else would you care?

Actually, I'm quite okay with myself and my fallibilities, personally. I do the best I can; that's about the best I can do. The atheistic concept of death has long since lost its sting. I guess I live as an atheist, even though I don't know. But even if I come to beleive there is a God, the thought of living this life like it's your last will never be alien to me... Eternal life a loving personal relationship with god would be awesome tho

Again, not exactly the open and shut answer I was looking for, but yes sir, I do see and understand your personal explanation. Thank you again, your tone and method of discourse is as close to what I was hoping for as I've seen so far. thanks everyone else ofcourse

I've got more 'why's' i could pose but it's getting a bit redundant on my part and i'm perty tired. i still don't understand why God masterminded Lucifire's rebellion and the like. the distinction between creation and actual making is interesting

Kudos to you for being sensitive to your Parents needs! Might I suggest to you, that you share this subject with them only after you're finished wrestling with it? You have shown them that they've never really plumbed the depths of this subject, and that should serve to BUILD their Faith! Eventually. In the meantime, not smashing it to bits counts as "walking in Love." You're off to a good start

Thanks man. the whole issue was kind of spur of the moment and i was expecting a swift rebuttal, but that didn't quite work out. at any rate, i will wait to broach the subject again until i've rassled it maself . i hope it is a galvanizing experience for them ultimately. i could live without religion myself, but i wouldn't want to pull that foundation out from under them, whether i believe in or not. that's me being a humanist but i'm glad its commendable to you

thanks again man, for your time and caring. take care

 

[AgnosticDude777]

Last one, real quick lol:

Wiki's wrong. Please go back over my posts when you come back. I'll go edit wiki.



Yes it is something other than benevolent, but it is NOT a frivolous bet with the devil! There is much more going on here ...

And besides, Job comes out WAY better off than before his trials. Hhhmmm,
who else do we know that endured suffering in obedience to God,and was later rewarded for it?

thanks man. i was wondering
So God is not omnibenevolent then? semantics aside.

i won't pretend to understand the nuances of the story of Job, but if it appeared to me that my God was torturing me or what have you (even if he was ultimately going to make it up) that would seem pretty darn malevolent, and the wager thing only makes it seem deceiptful to me as well. again, i don't profess to know much

Are you referring to Jesus's suffering? God sacrificing himself, to himself? that's probably a question for another thread, but that's always confused me as well

thanks Razor

Humanity's behaviour has gone so badly wrong that suffering is endemic. God regrets ever creating people. He chooses Noah as the "only righteous one" and his family to build a boat to save a representative group while the rest - all that has gone wrong - is wiped out by the waters. The floods come and wipe it all out and paradise is restored. Noah get's drunk and it all goes horribly wrong all over again.

You've essentially reiterrated the basis for my OP: why would a benevolent and all-powerful being orchestrate the repeated failure and brutal punishment of humanity, over, and over, and over? why is that necessary?
omnibenevolence is not apparently intrinsic to Christian faith for everyone, but for those for which it is?

g'night yall

 

[ebia]

You've essentially reiterrated the basis for my OP: why would a benevolent and all-powerful being orchestrate the repeated failure and brutal punishment of humanity, over, and over, and over? why is that necessary?
omnibenevolence is not apparently intrinsic to Christian faith for everyone, but for those for which it is?

g'night yall

You're missing the point of the story - God didn't make it go wrong in the first place, and he didn't make it go wrong at the end of the Noah story: human beings do that. The point of the story is that suffering cannot be done away with by force without wiping out every person because the capacity for evil runs right down the middle of every single one of us, even Noah.


So then, in chapter twelve, God does begin the plan that will deal with evil, death and suffering, but that cannot be a quick fix by force - it has to be a long and difficult road working with, in and through creation itself focused in a representative people.

Anybody who works with people damaged by their past knows that quick-fixes are worse than useless - long term problems require long term working with people, with a lot of set-backs along the way.

 

[AgnosticDude777]

You're missing my point apparently, like nearly everyone else, but i don't see much point in going into detail more than WHY???

Why does suffering and evil have to exist? Why is it necessary? AT ALL?
God has no limits of power, so it obviously doesn't have to be: he can just change the rules, he's god.
Secondly, how can you ultimately create everything in existence, including pain, sin, ect, and be completely benevolent?

It's a simple question that i've must have asked like 6 plus times. that's enough for today

Thanks for trying ebia. tho i don't necessary disagree with your interpretations, they don't answer my question. thanks anyhow

 

[ebia]

You're missing my point apparently, like nearly everyone else, but i don't see much point in going into detail more than WHY???

Why does suffering and evil have to exist? Why is it necessary? AT ALL?

Because the possibility of evil and therefore suffering is the flip-side of the possibility of good.

God has no limits of power, so it obviously doesn't have to be: he can just change the rules, he's god.

"Changing the rules" has other implications. In the end omnipotence (and the associated terms) are self-defeating terms like all naive ideas of the infinite. They aren't the way scripture talks about the power of God, they are essentially greek ideas and even they could see the problem with some such ideas. Your problem ends up being a nothing more than a more complex equivalent to "why doesn't God make a square circle?"

We are worth the risk because, ultimately God has a plan to work in, through and along side us to work through that problem to a creation that includes us that would not be possible without that risk.

As a parent you can make sure your son makes no mistakes. You have a number of options for doing so - you could have him not exist, or you could remove all possiblity for him making choices somehow. But you can't have him learn and grow without allowing the possibility of mistakes.

 

[marklbernard]

No problem i guess. i'm familiar with the free will assertion, thank you tho

I think people will be going over old argumentation that you have heard before, try something radical, why dont you ask God?

 

[MERKS]

My father once told me that "All men sin, all men suffer". I know a lot of my suffering in this life has been a result of my sin. However, I don't believe God intended for us to suffer, but He gave us all choices. If we didn't have problems or suffering we would never have a need for Christ in our lives. Just think how much Jesus had to suffer for our sinful nature & selfish ways. At least as christians we know that our suffering will someday end as we enter heaven.

 

[Emmy]

Dear AgnosticDude777. God gave us 10 Commandments, they all deal with Love: Love for God and love for our neighbour, all others, friend or foe. God is Love and He loves us. The Commandments are loving advice to us. If we follow that, we will have rewards, try loving all you know and meet, and you will get plenty love back. If on the other hand, we treat people unloving, unkind, without feelings of any friendliness, or unforgiveness, you will soon find that people treat you the same way. You know that we have free will, God will not force us, one way or another, would you agree that we ourselves bring unkindness and unloving attitudes on ourselves? What would you like God to do? Force everybody to do as we are told? become puppets and frightened to do as we are told? Jesus lived with us for some 30 years, He showed us God as God is really, a loving Heavenly Father. We have been given the Commandments to love God with all our hearts, and love each other as we would lilke to be love, or love them as we love ourselves. If you really think about it, you will find that God does not send suffering, neither does God allow it, we live in an imperfect world, AgnosticDude, and bad things are happening all the time. That is why Jesus kept telling us to REPENT, to exchange our selfish and unkind characters for loving selflessly, God first, He made us, and He wants us back again. Jesus is the Way, and Jesus is waiting to lead us back to God, where we came from. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[drich0150]

WHY IS IT EVEN AN OPTION? And how can/why would God create something that is not part of his expressed will?

I understand what you're saying but it all seems to skirt the original issue I've brought up again, and again: Why is evil necessary at all? Free will doesn't rectify this for me.


How's this: Why didn't God just create Heaven? Why is the test and temptation of human life necessary at all?

I don't know if your aware or not, but God did create a race of beings intended to inhabit Heaven without having to live through the "suffering" found in this life. Even being fully aware of the glory and Majesty of Heaven and who God is. They choose to literally condemn themselves to Hell in order to to have the choice we have been given.

We have been created to be autonomous individuals. We all have also been programed with a desire to know of God, but outside of that God does not want a race of mindless beings that praise and worship because He pulls our praise and worship strings. Even with the Angels God granted those who wished to leave, the ability to do so. As a result 1/3 left Heaven

Above all else our God is a righteous God. He has found the best perhaps only way to give us an unbiased way to make a heart true decision as to where we wish to spend eternity. In other words if we were presented with just the Majesty of Heaven or the disparity of Hell, I don't know of one person who would initially choose Hell on the way it looked or was illustrated. This life gives us an opportunity for our hearts to pick where we would be a better fit, without the knee jerk reaction of automatically choosing Heaven over Hell. Remember there are those who have been created to exist in Heaven, but choose Hell as a viable alternative. This means for them, that the true suffering that is found in Hell was better than, Living under God's authority where there is No suffering. So again Suffering even as described in scripture is relative.

It's a simple question that I've must have asked like 6 plus times. that's enough for today

I was told by one of my special ed teachers a long time ago, that if you had to ask a question over and over, and did not get the answer you seek it is not because you have a question no one can answer, you are just not asking the right question.

Even with my low IQ at the time I understood this to mean that it was not that "they" could not answer my questions, it was just that I was not smart enough or brave enough to ask the right one.

You have received answers to your question. If these answers do not fit the question you think your asking then rephrase. You seem like a smart guy, so why not work with those who are trying to work with you?

 

[razeontherock]

thanks man. i was wondering
So God is not omnibenevolent then? semantics aside.

i won't pretend to understand the nuances of the story of Job, but if it appeared to me that my God was torturing me or what have you (even if he was ultimately going to make it up) that would seem pretty darn malevolent, and the wager thing only makes it seem deceiptful to me as well.

Are you referring to Jesus's suffering? God sacrificing himself, to himself? that's probably a question for another thread, but that's always confused me as well

As drich has pointed your first and most basic question as stated has been
addressed pretty well, but you're still perplexed which means you have other questions. I'm going to make a bold statement that until you understand what you raised in the above quote I snipped, you'll still be lost on the issue.

SO: here's something else God showed me that I never heard anybody else ever say. As a young man I couldn't help but be aware of God intruding on my life, and along with the questions I was actually asking of Him, He also answered the question that was in my heart, by showing me how HE was justified in barging in on my life!

Problem: God gives man dominion over the whole earth, we mess it all up, but God's plan of Salvation involves Him becoming a man and enduring incomprehensible agony to ultimately conquer evil as it exists in the human state. Well that's not very Just of Him is it? No mortal man would ever do something like that! Not unless some man is willing to do the very same thing, for no good of his own, but solely out of his love for God. Even when he's suffering so badly he 'forgets which end is up,' as Jesus did.

Enter Job. That's exactly what he did. by successfully completing the test, Job justified God Himself when He would later take the sins of the whole world upon Himself in Jesus' body; He hadn't done something nobody had ever done before. He didn't violate the dominion He gave us, (which allowed evil to enter into our physical world) but He operated in it. He played by His own rules. He remained perfectly Just.

And I'm not nearly smart enough to figure out any of this on my own, even when it's already been done. :o God had to specifically show this to me, over an extended period of time, via all sorts of means. The fact that he concocted a plan so difficult also speaks to God's great Love for us, despite the fact that He's very angry over sin and will in fact Judge it, more harshly than we can either comprehend or endure. He'd much rather conquer evil as it exists in our human experience, unltimately removing it altogether.

So while I also agree that the plan is complex and involves suffering, I for one am not only unable to think of a better way, I couldn't even decipher what He did w/o Him showing it to me Himself, personally. We're all as dumb as sheep compared to Him! :o

You've essentially reiterrated the basis for my OP: why would a benevolent and all-powerful being orchestrate the repeated failure and brutal punishment of humanity, over, and over, and over? why is that necessary?
omnibenevolence is not apparently intrinsic to Christian faith for everyone, but for those for which it is?

Ok, so now you're seeing if there is such a thing as a Christian who holds God to be "omnibenevolent," they're all wet behind the ears. And yet God didn't orchestrate our fall, or our fallen nature as you state. Personal responsibility can be a bummer - but it's also very liberating when we embrace it!

You also touched on an element of satan: while we haven't been told the why's (or even hows) of his fall, we do know that God uses him to do his dirty work. There is some "orchestration" going on there, and the beginning of the book of Job gives us a little insight into that. It wasn't a wager so much as it was God putting satan in his place, and if satan was so smart he never would've taken God up on it because then God wouldn't have been able to enact this particular plan of Salvation, ultimately defeating satan. Think that one through ...

Satan's just a pawn. Even when all we see is evil all around, God's goodness is greater. It makes no sense, because we all know it's easier and quicker to destroy something, but God's goodness pours forth all over the place anyway. Despite death, which is the ultimate expression of evil we can comprehend.

It all comes down to God's Glory, simply meaning He is, in fact, greater. And what He offers is better than anything this world has to offer. Even for a young man.

 

[bsd31]

A simple question, I'm sure many of you hear it all the time, but I've never gotten what I felt was an adequate answer from my family and local church folk. It's been one of the main issues that has stunted my faith for as long as i can remember.

Why (if he is omniscient/potent/benevolent) does God allow suffering?

I"m not familiar with scripture so please paraphrase it, if at all. Otherwise please, please keep it as simple and logical as possible.

Thank you very much in advance

Why do you disobey God?

 

[blessedmomof5]

got this in a email today,maybe it will help.....God Bless you on your Journey!






DOES GOD EXIST?





This is one of the best explanations on the nature of God that I have ever seen...




A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects. When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'




'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children?


If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.


Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.

He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:


'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber. 'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'


'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

 

[Bron]

AgnosticDude777, I think your question comes from a genuine desire to understand. I guess you were looking for a straight-up answer, and people have given you what answers the question for themselves (in trying to help).
I think I understand your question. My estranged husband has had the same question for years, and neither I nor wiser people than me have been able to answer it to his satisfaction. I can only admit that I don't know the answer. For myself, my experience of God through my own life is enough that I can now accept that I don't know why there is suffering, while still trusting in God's goodness. (That sounds really vague, but I'm talking about actual events and situations.)

I don't think people like you should just shut up and pretend to believe, we are on our own life journeys - I guess our opinions (or beliefs or understandings) don't spring up overnight, they build on thought processes which are shaped by our lives and experiences, so perhaps understanding (or even acceptance of non-understanding) of some things will only come in time?

I respect your being honest and asking. I think that's more valuable than nodding your head and pretending for years until what faith you may have had is strangled.

All the best in your quest...

 

[aiki]

It seems to me after reading through this thread that, to a good degree, the OP's basic question has been answered - though not to the liking of the OPer. Not liking an answer is not the same as having no answer, however.

As I understand it, God allows suffering as a necessary consequence of giving people genuine free-will. The choices people make that are contrary to God's commands cause suffering. When we are selfish, and arrogant, and covetous, we inevitably cause suffering for others and ourselves. This is illustrated in the record of Scripture and in the broader record of human history over and over again. If God were to suspend the suffering our sinful choices cause, He would be enabling our sin; for what inducement would we have not to sin if the negative consequences of our actions were removed? This, of course, would make God complicit in our sin, which, as a holy God, He cannot be. Thus, the consequences of our wicked choices must be allowed to occur if God is to be holy and we are to have genuine free-will.

God cannot be holy and suspend the consequences of our sin, but I don't think we would much like it if God made us do what was right, either. Imagine if every time you were about to tell a lie, God made your tongue swell up. Or what if, whenever you felt selfish, God gave you terrible boils all over your body? Or how about God striking you blind every time you had a lustful thought pass through your mind? Would you really prefer such an existence to your present one?

The only other option is to be a moral robot. To prevent the suffering our sin causes, and to avoid being complicit in our sin, and to circumvent forcing us into right living, God would have to suspend our free will altogether. But that would mean we could not choose to love and/or obey Him. We would be slaves, or worse, puppets programmed by God to act as He wished. The suffering our sin causes would be gone, but so would the freedom to choose which we so greatly cherish. Would you prefer such a state of being to the one you presently have?

Even though terrible things do happen in our world, it is a mistake to think that God does nothing to mitigate human suffering. God restrains evil through what is known among theologians as His "common grace." His Spirit is constantly at work striving to keep humanity from diving headlong into sin and darkness and into the violence, pain and death that following such a course would produce. Many also are the accounts of God's divine intervention in the lives of people where He has healed them, or provided for their material needs, or comforted their sorrows and calmed their fears. He has imparted to men the knowledge and wisdom that produces peace, medicine and industry and enlarges the technological advancements that add comfort and ease to our lives. It is not that our world endures suffering without relief from the Creator. No, not at all.

Divine omnibenevolence is not supported by Scripture. God hates sin and holds all who sin under His wrathful condemnation unless and until they take the gift of salvation He offers to every person.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Selah.

 

[Bron]

It seems to me after reading through this thread that, to a good degree, the OP's basic question has been answered - though not to the liking of the OPer. Not liking an answer is not the same as having no answer, however.

I think the OPer is genuinely trying to get a handle on this concept, so we have no right to be annoyed when our answers do not answer what's in his head. God does not specifically address this issue in a simple black and white way, so all our personal answers can only be our opinion (or interpretation of what's in the Bible), and be what satisfies us as an answer.

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible as ultimate authority, which you can guarantee an agnostic does not, Bible based arguments will be circular. And as a God follower of long standing and experience, it frustrates me when Christians become annoyed with people who are seeking the truth who don't accept the Bible in the way they do. It is a guaranteed way to shut the door in the face of someone seeking God.

 

[aiki]

I think the OPer is genuinely trying to get a handle on this concept, so we have no right to be annoyed when our answers do not answer what's in his head.

Uh, I'm not annoyed. Are you?

God does not specifically address this issue in a simple black and white way, so all our personal answers can only be our opinion (or interpretation of what's in the Bible), and be what satisfies us as an answer.

I don't agree with you here much at all. I think its pretty obvious why, at least to some degree, God allows us to suffer. And some "opinions" are definitely better than others...

If someone doesn't believe in the Bible as ultimate authority, which you can guarantee an agnostic does not, Bible based arguments will be circular.

Using the Bible as a basis for belief doesn't necessarily have to be circular. Circular arguing is typically the result of poor arguing, not arguing from the Bible.

And as a God follower of long standing and experience, it frustrates me when Christians become annoyed with people who are seeking the truth who don't accept the Bible in the way they do.

Good for you! So, who's getting annoyed with people seeking the truth?

Selah.

 

[Bron]

Oh come off it aiki. You know I'm not annoyed. Whether you or others intend to put it across or hide it, if I was the OP, I would feel that you were annoyed at the persistent attempt to get an answer that satisfies me. I am concerned that a seeker of that sort will feel the door closing in their face. Gosh, I even feel you're getting annoyed with me...

 

[aiki]

I guess you feel what you want to feel.... Would a smiley face help?

If I was actually annoyed with the OPer, I wouldn't have bothered to frame an answer to his question.

I think you're being just a wee bit over-sensitive.

 

[Bron]

There are many reasons people reply - to show how erudite they are, because they're really annoyed - and because they're genuinely concerned. Maybe a smiley would have clued you in to the tease in "you're getting annoyed with me" ?

What I sense from you is a tendency to get irritated very quickly when people question your views. I'm concerned how this comes across to people seeking the truth, especially since this is an outreach section for people exploring Christianity. I lived for many years with a person who was teetering in what little faith they have - I'm thinking from that p.o.v, it's not personal.

 

[aiki]

What I sense from you is a tendency to get irritated very quickly when people question your views.

Uh huh. Well, I can't really help what you "sense." Perhaps you can show me from what I wrote this supposed annoyance of mine with the OPer?

I'm concerned how this comes across to people seeking the truth, especially since this is an outreach section for people exploring Christianity.

As am I. But this doesn't mean I should write exactly the way you would. I am an admittedly forthright communicator. I have also spent much time carefully studying out what I believe. The result is that I write with a confidence and directness to questions and challenges on this forum that some folk dislike. C'est la vie.

I lived for many years with a person who was teetering in what little faith they have - I'm thinking from that p.o.v, it's not personal.

Fair enough. I'm glad to know your p.o.v. is what it is. It gives important context to your criticism.