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But a lot of people wouldn't consider themselves sick and in need of a cure. They go on with their lives happily ignoring God.So God made us sick so that we would appreciate Him giving us the cure. Munchausen by proxy.
Well, I never said you have to have a desire to have an ability. But I'll run with that if you say so.
One must have the ability to do evil if one is to have free will
One must have the desire to do evil if one is to have the ability to do evil
One must have the desire to do evil if one is to have free will
Having free will means having the desire to do evil
God gave man free will
God gave man the desire to do evil
See, my angle isn't the free will bit here. I'm not offering my own definition of free will, I'm using pretty much whatever you guys throw at me (until the special pleading fallacies start). You jumped in to a conversation with someone who insists God has free will but won't do evil. You say a desire to do evil is necessary for free will, and you're consistent by saying that God lacks the desire to do evil, so He also lacks free will, and that's fine. But this means that God made us want to do evil. God is the tempter. God created evil by creating evil desires before man ever acted on them.
I never claimed any such thing. I went along with it when you claimed it, but I never proposed it.I don't say that a desire to do evil is necessary for free will. That's what you've been saying all along
So yeah, quit making stuff up, bro.God can create a being with free will and with zero desire to do evil
Why did someone have to tell them they were naked? Nobody told my dog she is naked, and she seems perfectly happy to me!Someone had to tell them they were naked
As I pointed out before, the freewill does not come from God, it comes from within ourselves.Yes, it is.
Free will means possessing the ability to make choices. Free will has little to do with the consequences of those choices, or the choices themselves.
If we don't have choices, we don't have free will.
If we don't have the ability to make those choices, we don't have free will.
There are two cures to suffering that I can think of...ignorance and indifference.Again: please focus on what we can do about suffering.
This would seem to be a rather simplistic interpretation of free will, because it ignores the fact that outside agents are actually the source of every free will choice that you have. When the robber asks you 'your money or your life' he's given you a choice that you didn't have before. In fact every single choice that you make is a choice that's been forced upon you by an outside source. Thus oddly enough free will is the product of the constraints that have been placed upon us, and a rather odd way of delineating our freedom.If a robber put a gun to your head and said your money or your life, did this robber give you freewill to give him your money? No. The choice of dying or giving him your money comes from within yourself, not from the robber. Same with God; if God provides punishment for rejecting him, that choice to reject or not does not come from God, it comes from within yourself
I never claimed any such thing. I went along with it when you claimed it, but I never proposed it.
It only took you a handful of posts before you had to start making stuff up, Zippy.
Here's where it started:
So yeah, quit making stuff up, bro.
Here's where it started:
God can do anything logically possible
Having free will and having zero desire to do evil are not mutually exclusive properties
God can create a being with free will and with zero desire to do evil
A being with zero desire to do evil is better than a being that has a non-zero desire to do evil
God chose to create an inferior product.
Well, I never said you have to have a desire to have an ability.
I catch you fibbing, so you come back with the flamethrower, lol. I must be on to something to have you so worked up so quickly, eh Zippy? I'm lazy because I don't put as much detail into my posts as you want me to? lol, tough noogies.I'm tired of repeating myself and I'm tired of your laziness.
If they have free will, then yeah. Are you claiming people freely choose things they don't want or what?You defend ~A by appealing to the idea that since humans do evil, they must therefore have a desire to do evil.
I've conflated nothing.The theist is the one who separates ability from (necessitarian) desire. You are the one who conflates them.
Sex will necessarily happen sometimes, somewheres because people desire sex so much.Your idea is that, "Humans do evil, therefore they must have a desire to do evil." You conclude that God must have given humans a desire which necessarily causes them to do evil.
I don't agree outside sources are forced upon us because we are able to ignore/dismiss these choices from outside sources.This would seem to be a rather simplistic interpretation of free will, because it ignores the fact that outside agents are actually the source of every free will choice that you have. When the robber asks you 'your money or your life' he's given you a choice that you didn't have before. In fact every single choice that you make is a choice that's been forced upon you by an outside source.
By definition, if they were constraints, it would not be free will. There are a lot of people who don't believe in the concept of free will; perhaps you don't either.Thus oddly enough free will is the product of the constraints that have been placed upon us, and a rather odd way of delineating our freedom.
Why not? People do that every day. I don't necessarily want or 'desire' to clean my kitchen. I would much rather choose to do something more fun. Yet, I will do it. Maybe...I catch you fibbing, so you come back with the flamethrower, lol. I must be on to something to have you so worked up so quickly, eh Zippy? I'm lazy because I don't put as much detail into my posts as you want me to? lol, tough noogies.
If you think some conclusion is implicit in something I've said, it's fair to state "If that's true then...". But if you come back and tell me I claimed the thing you think is implicit that's called "a lie". If you need to lie to make your argument, your argument is bad.
If they have free will, then yeah. Are you claiming people freely choose things they don't want or what?
Yes. See above.I've conflated nothing.
A If you have the ability to do X, then you can do X. If you cannot do X, then you do not freely choose to not do X.
B If have the ability to do X, but you do not have any desire whatsoever to do X, then you won't choose to do X.
Do you disagree with B? Do you think folks freely choose to do things they have zero desire at all to do?
Free will is about having the ability to make a choice. It's not about having the desire.And if so, doing things you don't want to do is what free will looks like to you?
Because life isn't about doing what we want to do, when we want to do it.Why are you choosing to do things if it isn't because you want to do those things?
Sex doesn't "happen."Sex will necessarily happen sometimes, somewheres because people desire sex so much.
Sometimes, some people will have sex, even though they don't want to have sex, just to keep the peace.Does that mean that anytime someone chooses to have sex it was against their will?
See answer above.If there was zero desire to have sex in every human, why would anyone choose to have sex ever?
Those folks want to have sex because it brings peace. Just because you don't like every part of an act doesn't mean you don't want to do the act. That addresses most of your post.Sometimes, some people will have sex, even though they don't want to have sex, just to keep the peace.
So.Those folks want to have sex because it brings peace. Just because you don't like every part of an act doesn't mean you don't want to do the act. That addresses most of your post.
So if woman is facing rape or death, she has sex because she 'desires' sex in order to keep the peace?So.
Very.
Wrong.
"Desire" just means "want". You're putting emphasis on it as if it means you "like it a lot" or something.So if woman is facing rape or death, she has sex because she 'desires' sex in order to keep the peace?
That's bunk.
And most courts would also say that's bunk.
The question is do we define it in accordance with Hashem’s teachings.Then "righteous" is already meaningless. God can define it as He pleases.
And that answer is just as meaningless, because everyone thinks that their particular definition of "righteous" is in accordance with God's teachings. So it gets us nowhere.The question is do we define it in accordance with Hashem’s teachings.
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