Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive?

[Joshua260]

Alex,

There are several philosophical arguments for the existence of God. One of those arguments is called the Kalam Cosmological Argument which reads as follows:

1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The first premise is pretty intuitive. Our experience has shown that all things that have ever begun to exist can be traced back to a cause. I don't know of anything that has been witnessed just popping into being uncaused.

The second premise is also well established by other philosophical arguments and scientific evidence.

The conclusion naturally follows from the two premises and when one examines the traits that would be attributed to the cause of the universe beginning to exist, we find that the cause would itself be uncaused, timeless, immaterial, unimaginably powerful, and even personal. Many of the attributes we recognize in the god of the bible.

 

[South Bound]

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

You've got to love those straw-Christians the atheists here always seem to run into. Isn't it amazing how these straw-Christians never have a Biblical answer, but always confirm the atheist's bias?

 

[alexiscurious]

Such as...? Can you giver me a concrete example of something that cannot be replicated?

I'm not too picky about this. It could be as simple as a two-way conversation with God or a simple sign from him like in 1 Kings 18 where he sets something on fire in front of a large group of people (he can do infinite things at once so I don't know how this would be an inconvenience to him).

 

[alexiscurious]

You've got to love those straw-Christians the atheists here always seem to run into. Isn't it amazing how these straw-Christians never have a Biblical answer, but always confirm the atheist's bias?

Is something wrong with the examples I posted?

 

[Hospes]

I'm not too picky about this. It could be as simple as a two-way conversation with God or a simple sign from him like in 1 Kings 18 where he sets something on fire in front of a large group of people (he can do infinite things at once so I don't know how this would be an inconvenience to him).

If I understand you correctly, you need some type of personal sign or wonder. (Though I really don't see how a person does not see such in the incredible choreographed complexity and beauty of the world about them.) If so, I can't imagine why you are asking questions on this forum. I am sure writing on this forum is not going to produce for you a sign or wonder. And nothing I can write will give you one.

How could anything on this forum lead to satisfying any of your criteria for verifying that Jesus is who he claimed to be if the verification requires a sign and/or wonder?

 

[alexiscurious]

If I understand you correctly, you need some type of personal sign or wonder. (Though I really don't see how a person does not see such in the incredible choreographed complexity and beauty of the world about them.)

It's funny how most of the new testament was written by a man who needed a sign or wonder before he dedicated his life to God...guess he was just one of those people who couldn't see the choreographed complexity and beauty of the world.

How could anything on this forum lead to satisfying any of your criteria for verifying that Jesus is who he claimed to be if the verification requires a sign and/or wonder?

I never said anything on this forum would lead to anything satisfying. You and I went off on a tangent and unfortunately we've not really gone anywhere interesting.

 

[alexiscurious]

Yes and he is a devout Messianic, living in Tahiti...

Yeah I couldn't find agnostic up until now so I just chose randomly. Fixed it now

 

[Hospes]

I never said anything on this forum would lead to anything satisfying. You and I went off on a tangent and unfortunately we've not really gone anywhere interesting.

I thought maybe you were asking questions in an honest desire to gain understanding. My mistake.

Fair well.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

It's funny how most of the new testament was written by a man who needed a sign or wonder before he dedicated his life to God...guess he was just one of those people who couldn't see the choreographed complexity and beauty of the world.

Saul/Paul was a believer in God long before any sign. He was totally backwards on the Son of God, for sure, but he didn't question the existence of God.

Regardless, why does 100% understanding have to come before belief?

 

[oi_antz]

Regardless, why does 100% understanding have to come before belief?

I am sure 100% understanding is impossible. My expectation is that sufficient understanding is required before a belief can be changed.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

I am sure 100% understanding is impossible. My expectation is that sufficient understanding is required before a belief can be changed.

I can see that point of view but disagree. I don't think beliefs are changed by human reason or by being rationally compelled of wrongdoing. Beliefs are changed by the grace of God alone. One can put faith in God before realizing how he has offended Him. In fact, I'd argue that one cannot realize how he has offended God until He opens his eyes.

 

[oi_antz]

I can see that point of view but disagree. I don't think beliefs are changed by human reason or by being rationally compelled of wrongdoing. Beliefs are changed by the grace of God alone. One can put faith in God before realizing how he has offended Him. In fact, I'd argue that one cannot realize how he has offended God until He opens his eyes.

Key word was "sufficient". Your points are valid and true, but I think you should agree, because it is actually supported by what you have said here

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Key word was "sufficient". Your points are valid and true, but I think you should agree, because it is actually supported by what you have said here

Perhaps we are just coming at it from different angles, but we are probably not so far apart

 

[oi_antz]

Perhaps we are just coming at it from different angles, but we are probably not so far apart

Not entirely, I do disagree with this statement of yours:

"I don't think beliefs are changed by human reason or by being rationally compelled of wrongdoing. Beliefs are changed by the grace of God alone. "

.. Although, I know you have a specific type of belief in mind as you say this, I am speaking generally of beliefs and your statement here does not fit with my general observations wrt beliefs.

It is somewhat true what you are saying though, and the OP has expressed particular trouble with not having been given the "grace of God" that you have stated here as being necessary for him to change some certain beliefs he has. This example even supports my statement though, that Alex appears to not have sufficient understanding yet to change a given belief in question. This is however, somewhat the responsibility of God and somewhat the responsibility of Alex. It is difficult for you and I to judge who has failed (though we will naturally tend to assume Alex has failed, it might not necessarily be the truth Exodus 33:19, John 3:8).

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Not entirely, I do disagree with this statement of yours:

"I don't think beliefs are changed by human reason or by being rationally compelled of wrongdoing. Beliefs are changed by the grace of God alone. "

.. Although, I know you have a specific type of belief in mind as you say this, I am speaking generally of beliefs and your statement here does not fit with my general observations wrt beliefs.

It is somewhat true what you are saying though, and the OP has expressed particular trouble with not having been given the "grace of God" that you have stated here as being necessary for him to change some certain beliefs he has. This example even supports my statement though, that Alex appears to not have sufficient understanding yet to change a given belief in question. This is however, somewhat the responsibility of God and somewhat the responsibility of Alex. It is difficult for you and I to judge who has failed (though we will naturally tend to assume Alex has failed, it might not necessarily be the truth Exodus 33:19, John 3:8).

By beliefs, I refer to the shift of one's beliefs from a non-believer to a repentant Christian. I hold that this shift is not initiated by a logical understanding of one's sinful nature, but that even before one can understand that, he must submit himself to God. Many hold the opposite.

 

[oi_antz]

By beliefs, I refer to the shift of one's beliefs from a non-believer to a repentant Christian. I hold that this shift is not initiated by a logical understanding of one's sinful nature, but that even before one can understand that, he must submit himself to God. Many hold the opposite.

I would rather use the word "nature" if I was discussing that. I do understand now what you have meant. Thanks for explaining your point of view.

 

[alexiscurious]

Regardless, why does 100% understanding have to come before belief?

Because Christianity costs alot of time, money, and energy. I'm not going to dedicate my entire life to a cause that I don't fully understand.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Because Christianity costs alot of time, money, and energy. I'm not going to dedicate my entire life to a cause that I don't fully understand.

How can one fully understand anything without actually experiencing it?

 

[alexiscurious]

How can one fully understand anything without actually experiencing it?

What is there to experience exactly?

 

[CryOfALion]

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

With a bit of hindsight and experience, perhaps you are not asking Christians. Maybe you are asking people who think they are Christian.

There is a subtle difference in humility, I would say. It sounds like you desire that first, then answers - not arrogant speeches and didactic demeanor.