Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive?

[alexiscurious]

I know you have gotten better answers than at least some of those when posting here. Did you not take these into account?

They suger coated it a bit but it's basically the same reply.

 

[oi_antz]

I am pretty sure enough effort is being put forth. I am not going to slam my head against the wall over and over again so enough brain cells can disappear before I come to understand any of what is being fed to me. I ask thoughtful and very relevant questions in a world where man has entrapped billions of people in false religions.

But you do not consider the answers. You are slamming your head against some wall other than the truth. If truth is what you were seeking, you would be preaching it, and you would be finding it in answers everywhere. Especially some that I have seen you get that you have not found to contain it.

Can't I be assured of God's existence? No, you can't, just have faith.

What is faith? Why would you not want it, and how would it be possible to know God without having it, in this world?

Can't I at least have a two way conversation with him since he loves me so much and he obviously exists? No he is beyond your understanding don't question his methods your just a man he is God.

That sounds like the type of answer you would get from someone who doesn't have that type of faith. The type of faith you describe here is common enough.

Ok thx christian forums very helpful luv u all.

I think this is what keeps me engaged with you. Do you mean it?

 

[Sketcher]

They suger coated it a bit but it's basically the same reply.

That itself sounds rather dismissive of you. It seems that you are holding what you perceive as dismissiveness on our part against us, but you have no problems with being dismissive yourself.

 

[jacks]

Yes and he is a devout Messianic, living in Tahiti...

 

[CryOfALion]

So if I can never be 100% sure of anything as you stated, how could God hold me accountable on judgement day for not believing in him?

Because despite you not being omniscient, you are still given commands to follow and obey. You don't need to know the quarterly earnings of your company to know that embezzlement is wrong. Obedience is obedience, and you obey not because you know everything, but because your master/parents/boss/God told you to.

Also, there is no excuse for not knowing Him. There is the canon, and even other texts. Not to mention God Himself said His laws would be put on our heart so we will know Him. You know what is right and wrong. And, you are accountable for your mistakes.

I disagree. How can you consider the Bible to be a plethora of insight? All I see in the Bible is people who sincerely believe God and Jesus existed and write about their belief. Since when has believing in anything automatically made it true?

So your problem is a lack of faith, and wrestling with that. Nevertheless, God shows Himself in very real ways to many people - believer or non believer. You don't need a sign, or vindication if you have faith. You will always need faith, because you are not omniscient. You don't get to say something is fake, unreal or unreachable just because your science/knowledge cant vindicate it, and you cant believe it. That is myopic and dismissive.

Why in the world would I care about the testimony of strangers I never knew?

I dont know why you personally would or wouldnt care, but plenty of people do for one reason or another. It doesnt make your case special or of more merit.

Why would God hold me accountable for not accepting the testimony of complete strangers?

Because any and all information you receive you are responsible for. That goes for nonlinear dynamics to unicorns flying on the backs of rock trolls. You are responsible for dismissing it as tin foil, stupid, illogical, or spot on. You are responsible for all of your actions and thoughts, not the prophets. God tells us to be faithful - do you think He was just sending His prophets out in horrible situations to preach to people just so that you can dismiss them as strangers? In fact, He sent them in spite of that type of thinking, because to others it is intimate knowledge. Precious.

I'm not looking for the loving, fair, all-powerful creator of the universe in one little book written a long ass time ago.

What are you looking for? The bible is a canon; God's handiwork is literally everywhere.

I should see him everywhere.

Why? How are you better than me: that isnt rhetorical. I want to know. You must be better than most all of us since you think you are owed a personal eye to eye with the Most High God. Otherwise, that comment is extremely ludicrous seeing as though most of the prophets did not see God during their life time up close and personal. But, they had faith and trust in Him.

He should be so plainly and clearly visible that I have no reason to be wasting my time debating whether he exists or not.

You can always not debate, and forget about Him. Then your time won't be wasted. He gives you that option. If you are unsatisfied with the way creation works then take it up with Him. Personally, I wouldn't want anyone who doubts my very existence (despite the evidence) to spend eternity with me and my family.

And, I think you forget that technically you are dead, and you deserve every bit of death for sinning against the Most High God. And, you will die. No god - least of all the Most High - is obligated to give it's creation council of any sort, especially when the created entity demands one.

And why does he need to create on God's behalf?

Who said it was on God's behalf? God gave Adam a commandment; Adam followed God's commandment because he had faith. You act like being active members of God's Creation via our procreation is a begrudging and insulting task.

God can spit things into existence with words. Why would he need Adam to do it for him? Seems a bit fishy and strategically planned to me. Don't you think?

We are blessed to even be alive, have food that is actually pleasing, breath air that doesn't dissolve our lungs, and engage in procreation that actually feels good. Why? Because we sinned against the Most High God. He would be well within His rights to obliterate the entire universe - He can do it. Adam isn't doing anything for God except following His commandments. And, since they had faith, it benefited him. Do you think God needed Abraham to kill Isaac? He could have snapped His fingers and done that. That event was for Abraham's benefit, and a foreshadowing of what God would do for us with His son Christ.

I begin to smell the sea when imperfect meat sacks demand council from a perfectly Just and most powerful God as if they are owned anything. We broke Universal Law, God owes us nothing - least of all a chance at life again.

But I never sinned yet I still wound up here.

You have sinned. You wound up here because you were allowed to by Him.

Why is God holding me accountable for someone else's careless decision again?

He isn't, but you are responsible for everything you do. And, you have sinned, so you are accountable. Do you think Enoch whined about this? He followed God, and was stewarded/"caught up" - able to experience a taste of what God has for us.

What did God tell Cain? If Cain did right, God will see that and bless him. God didn't hold Cain responsible for his parent's actions.

You are accountable for your own actions, and since you have sinned you deserve death.

I don't think judges in a courtroom today would punish the descendants of one person for just that one person's actions.

Because God models His justice based on what imperfect arrogant meats sacks call justice and law - the same meat sacks that broke His universal law, and have the audacity to demand anything from Him.[/sarcasm]

Why did he wait so long to destroy imperfection? He should have exterminated it right then and there and created a new fresh copy of me

He is natural, not magical. Adam's spirit died when he sinned. Adam naturally died according to the laws of nature God put in place. We are dead unless we accept the "on loan" Holy Spirit. We will die physically.

You cannot see a trillion years into the future; most likely you can't see six months into the future with certainty. So, it is understandable that you would ask this.

But you are still responsible for your actions no matter if you believe or not.

Bla bla bla...heard it all before

I am sure you have, because you are incredibly dissatisfied with the answers you get.

Maybe you are frustrated because you just hear - you don't actually listen, absorb, believe, register, think and reconcile what you hear. I hear talking head anchors daily; it doesn't mean I have absorbed or listened to anything they have said.

I'm curious, what is the point of making this thread if you are just going to dismiss what you don't want to hear? It seems like you are looking to get your feelings and thoughts vindicated. Good luck with that; no meat sack is going to be able to vindicate your relationship (or lack there of) with God except you.

 

[oi_antz]

Not to mention God Himself said His laws would be put on our heart so we will know Him.

I heard the Roar of a lion!

Can you tell me when God said this, and who He said it to?

 

[Messy]

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?

Reply: You can.

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.

You can if you come into a covenant with Him. Because of sin we lost our natural communication with God, but it can be restored.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?

Reply: Because of sin. All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
He is holy. In order to be reconciled you need Jesus who gives you a new holy nature.

 

[CryOfALion]

I heard the Roar of a lion!

Can you tell me when God said this, and who He said it to?

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 10:15-18

For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Hebrews 8:8-12

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the[bless and do not curse]Lord:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name

Jeremiah 31:31-35

God is talking to everyone that cares to hear and listen - that will accept His decrees and agreement/covenant. How so?

Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”

And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!

For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 12:47-50

Genetics aren't applicable; besides the fact that several billions of people do not realize they are genetic Hebrews, this new agreement/covenant is for all that choose Him.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16.

The first agreement/covenant was with the Hebrews. The new agreement is for everyone who wants to "sign on the dotted line." As per legally binding agreements, both parties have obligations: God will be our God, and bless us IF we adhere to the terms of His agreement.

 

[food4thought]

So if I can't be 100% sure of anyone or anything as you said, how can God hold me accountable for not believing in him?

First, your unbelief is far from the only thing that will condemn you if you refuse to repent. Also, your unbelief in God can be contrasted with your willingness to believe countless other things on faith in this life. You cannot be certain of anything, yet you choose to believe/put faith in many different things/people. Yet the only one who is truly worthy of that faith you reject.

Positive evidence? What positive evidence? All I see in the Bible is people who sincerely believe God and Jesus existed and write about their belief. Since when has believing in anything automatically made it true? Why in the world would I care about the testimony of strangers I never knew? Why would God hold me accountable for not accepting the testimony of complete strangers? I'm not looking for the loving, fair, all-powerful creator of the universe in one little book written a long ass time ago. I should see him everywhere. He should be so plainly and clearly visible that I have no reason to be wasting my time debating whether he exists or not.

There is plenty. I suggest Josh McDowell's "The Evidence that Demands a Verdict". Just off the top of my head I can think of :

1) The manuscript evidence for the reliability of our modern NT text. This lets us know that the NT we have today is extremely close to the NT that was written.

2) Fulfilled prophecy. This let's us know that the Biblical texts were not simply the ramblings of religious nuts. Although some prophecies are cryptic and/or general, there are many examples of very specific and precise prophecies that were fulfilled in history long after they were written.

3) The testimony of the 12 Apostles. You may want to reject this at first glance, but consider this: the Apostles knew for certain whether Jesus had risen from the dead, or not. They claimed to have spoken with the risen Lord, touched Him, eaten with Him. The idea that all the Apostles suffered from the same delusion/illusion is ridiculous in the extreme, and you know it. They all claimed to have witnessed the risen Jesus many times and in many situations/places. They were all persecuted terribly for this belief in different times and places, yet NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THE 12 RECANTED THEIR CLAIM! Islam has shown us once again that people are willing to die for something they believe to be true... but who among us would endure the ancient world's worst forms of torture and death for a claim they knew for certain to be false? Now, it is reasonable, although quite heroic, to be willing to endure such things for the sake of something you knew with certainty to be true.


As for your last statement... God has been and is continually communicating to you through His creation, your conscience, and His people. Drop your skepticism, open your eyes, open your mind, and JUST SEEK HIM OUT!

 

[Hospes]

Can't I be assured of God's existence?

How about we do a little mental exercise? We'll take this one question of yours and really go deep and see where we end up.

First, so I understand your criteria for being assured, please tell me how you are assured of the existence of anything you have not seen. For instance - assuming you are assured carbon molecules exist - the existence of a carbon molecule.

 

[Joshua260]

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

When a person gets saved, the holy spirit enters his life and testifies to him of the truth of God's existence. Therefore, the reason you do not have the assurance you seek could be because you have not been saved. However you can be saved if you would repent of your sins and ask for God's salvation offered through Jesus Christ.

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Well, one reason you may be having problems praying is because you are not a Christian. So, again, first get saved and then you may begin learning how to pray "properly" by studying Matthew 6:9-13.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

In a word, stubbornness. (I don't mean to offend...I was there myself years ago). You certainly don't have to suffer the due punishment for your sins, but God has given you the gift of free will, even the free will to choose poorly.

I hope you choose to accept the free offer of salvation through the work of Jesus Christ. We'd love to have you join us!

 

[oi_antz]

Hebrews 10:15-18

Hebrews 8:8-12

Jeremiah 31:31-35

God is talking to everyone that cares to hear and listen - that will accept His decrees and agreement/covenant. How so?

[/b][/u] Matthew 12:47-50

Genetics aren't applicable; besides the fact that several billions of people do not realize they are genetic Hebrews, this new agreement/covenant is for all that choose Him.


John 3:16.

The first agreement/covenant was with the Hebrews. The new agreement is for everyone who wants to "sign on the dotted line." As per legally binding agreements, both parties have obligations: God will be our God, and bless us IF we adhere to the terms of His agreement.

Ok, thanks, that is what I thought you were referring to. Let OP and others know that it doesn't make sense to conclude that God said this to refer to us. OP may choose to pursue that thought if he so desires, and I will provide reasons to think otherwise. But we cannot engage on this issue here. Please be aware of the potential for this sort of claim to be disputed, because statements of fact that are disputable will discredit all other points you make. I appreciate your actions for Alex though, I hope he will listen to the good points you have made. With love brother

 

[oi_antz]

We'd love to have you join us!

I agree. I picture you joining us in joy, Alex.

 

[alexiscurious]

How about we do a little mental exercise? We'll take this one question of yours and really go deep and see where we end up.

First, so I understand your criteria for being assured, please tell me how you are assured of the existence of anything you have not seen. For instance - assuming you are assured carbon molecules exist - the existence of a carbon molecule.

A carbon molecule? Probably through a textbook or a rant from one of my chemistry teachers. I honestly couldn't care less though, it doesn't matter if I choose to believe in a carbon molecule or not. My life stays the same.

 

[Hospes]

A carbon molecule? Probably through a textbook or a rant from one of my chemistry teachers. I honestly couldn't care less though, it doesn't matter if I choose to believe in a carbon molecule or not. My life stays the same.

So you only need a rant from someone you deem knowledgeable or text from a reliable book to be convinced something exists?

 

[alexiscurious]

So you only need a rant from someone you deem knowledgeable or text from a reliable book to be convinced something exists?

About something as trivial as a carbon molecule? Sure.

I am convinced of a lot of things I really don't care about. George Washington was probably the first president of the United States and it's an area where not many people are confused.

Billions of people are being deceived by false religions and it's an area where I feel more evidence is required. I look at other religions and then look back at Christianity. All of them have their special writings from their special eyewitnesses who saw it all. None of this is particularly convincing to me and I don't think you should be saying that since I accept other things with little evidence that I should accept Christianity with its little evidence also.

 

[WoundedDeep]

Why does Christianity have to be so dismissive? I feel as if every answer I receive is more of an excuse then an explanation.

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?
Reply: You need to have faith. God cannot be proven in any external verifiable way. Just believe!

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.
Reply: Man cannot understand God's ways. God is beyond our understanding. You are not in the right place to be questioning God's methods.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?
Reply: Well....actually no action on your part caused God to separate himself from you. God is holding you and I responsible for our ancestors' decisions and that's why you, I, and the rest of humanity is trapped in an unavoidable and inescapable sinful prison. Even though we didn't even exist back then, we still deserve his wrath.

I wouldn't answer the questions you posed above in the same way, but none of the answers given are inherently wrong (though I don't really agree with the reply for example 3).

Example 1: Why can't I be 100% assured of God's existence?

You can if you examine the universe and the Christian faith with an unbiased mind, and discard any preconceived ideas and theories you've learned from other atheists. Most atheists don't do that and they engage in all kinds of confirmation bias. You will not be able to fully understand God, but you will have some conviction inside you that will tell you there is a Creator in this universe. That is why there are atheistic scientists who do believe in a Creator after they examine objective scientific evidences.

Example 2: Why can't I communicate properly with God? Prayer seems to be more of a one way conversation, not a conversation between two beings that love each other dearly.

Prayer is a spiritual form of communication whereby your spirit speaks with God who is spirit. He hears all the thoughts of our minds whether we speak with Him and He answers faithful prayers according to His will through circumstances, people or the Bible. Sometimes His answer is yes, sometimes it is no (so nothing prayed about happens). He does not speak audibly but He does communicate back to those who trust that He will answer. Prayer is never a one-way communication.

Example 3: Why am I separated from my creator? What action on my part constitutes such a cruel punishment?

People are separated from God because of sin. Sin is breaking the commandments of God and creates a barrier in our communication and fellowship with Him. In rejecting God and His counsel, men depart from what is good and follow after what is evil, there is no in between. Just one single act of evil unrepented of will separate a sinner from God. And since God is the source of life, separation from God means certain death. The lake of fire is a place for people who reject God and thus reject life, the consequences are eternal because God made us eternal beings living in temporary flesh.

 

[Hospes]

About something as trivial as a carbon molecule? Sure.

I am convinced of a lot of things I really don't care about. George Washington was probably the first president of the United States and it's an area where not many people are confused.

Billions of people are being deceived by false religions and it's an area where I feel more evidence is required. I look at other religions and then look back at Christianity. All of them have their special writings from their special eyewitnesses who saw it all. None of this is particularly convincing to me and I don't think you should be saying that since I accept other things with little evidence that I should accept Christianity with its little evidence also.

You make a good point; you are right in thinking important and life-altering truths are not to be just casually accepted.

So, assuming you think there may exist a true religion, what would it take for you to be assured one is true? As I wrote earlier, I am simply trying to establish what your criteria is for becoming convinced a life-altering fact.

As an aside; you mention Christianity having little evidence. That surprised me; my understanding is the amount of evidence for Christianity's core claims is relatively large. I know of no other religion that compares.

BTW, thanks for engaging on this.

 

[alexiscurious]

You make a good point; you are right in thinking important and life-altering truths are not to be just casually accepted.

So, assuming you think there may exist a true religion, what would it take for you to be assured one is true? As I wrote earlier, I am simply trying to establish what your criteria is for becoming convinced a life-altering fact.

Anything that other man-made religions cannot replicate would easily convince me that Christianity is true. Unfortunately, there is nothing in Christianity that would instantly disprove all other religions or prove that this is the one true religion. And if I try to ask for anything that would help ease my doubt my request is easily dismissed. All you have is the testimony of 2000 year old dead people. Big freakin' whoopdy doo. Every religion has their special scripture from their special eyewitnesses who claimed to have saw it all. How in the world would I know which people were telling the truth? Christianity needs more content that separates itself from the rest. It needs something that cannot be copied or made up in order for me to be thoroughly convinced.

As an aside; you mention Christianity having little evidence. That surprised me; my understanding is the amount of evidence for Christianity's core claims is relatively large. I know of no other religion that compares.

BTW, thanks for engaging on this.

Its claims are large and its evidence is lacking.

 

[Hospes]

Anything that other man-made religions cannot replicate would easily convince me that Christianity is true.

Such as...? Can you giver me a concrete example of something that cannot be replicated?