Why does Christ say to keep the Commandments?

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PattyOfurniture

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I'm a little confused by this post can you expand this thought and maybe use some scripture, to support it? :confused:
what i meant to say is...the COI are no longer a special peeps,a chosen race,etc.(Disclaimer; THIS IS ONLY MY UNLEARNED OPINION).anyone that "accepts Jesus as Lord&Saviour"has become a "Royal Priesthood"(1 Peter 2:9, 10;written to Gentiles).I'm thinking the christian church itself is the israel of God(spiritual Israel).

sooo,by saying were grafted into "israel" to me doesn't mean we are a part of the children of israel (in its popular usage)

Romans 11 tells ME...
1. Some faithful Jews who believe in Christ are counted among the elect of God; the rest of the nation are blind (verses 5-8).
2. All but the believing remnant have been cast away (verse 15).
3. The majority of unbelieving Jews are likened to branches that have been broken off from a parent olive tree (verses 17-20; compare John 15:5). The parent stock is Christ.
4. The only way rejected Jews can be acceptable to God again is by believing in Christ (verse 23).
5. Believing Jews are grafted back into the parent stock again in the same way as believing Gentiles (verse 24).
 
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PattyOfurniture

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I've been where you are now. :wave:
AND it served me no benefit to disregard the Law.
Jesus as well as King David benefited from "disregarding the law".Jesus tells the knuckleheads they would benefit from "disregarding the law".if in the chance a work mule,slave or whatever else punched a time clock back in the day were in danger.yet Jesus goes a bit further to say the obsolete 7th day sabbath was made for man ....you know the rest...
 
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PattyOfurniture

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Law keeping is for Sanctification (Holiness/Set-Apart).
I don't agree that law keeping is our sanctification...
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
 
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PattyOfurniture

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let me just add this.....this is how backwards we people are concerning Gods word these days....
theres a MJ board in CF that will not let you post any refutations to the "trinity".these are the same peeps bragging in here about keeping kosher,wearing tzi-tzi,not turning on lights on the sabbath( talmudic crap),wouldnt even dare calling God, God(G-d)yeshuah...Jesus ,you get my drift.
and some of the SDA have messaged me calling me a hellenized-pagan...loooool cause i wont keep the 7th day as a sabbath...we are mixed up man.really sad stuff.
 
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Loveaboveall

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please read Romans 14:5 ...One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord.,....10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”

12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Romans 14:6 (the whole verse) "He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."

There is nothing to suggest that Paul is speaking of the Sabbath or the 4th commandment here. There is also little to suggest that he is not speaking of the sabbath. However, in the context of Romans and what Paul has earlier said about the 10 commandments (Romans 3) I find it hard to believe that he was speaking of the sabbath of the 10 commandments rather than ceremonial observances that the Jews had kept and passed down through the generations. Many would agree that Paul is here speaking of the Jews fasting on certain days. There is nothing commanded in the 10 commandments regarding fasting, however, there is nothing wrong with fasting either; it would probably be beneficial to a person's spiritual life. But, one should not require a personal conviction such as fasting on a certain day to everyone else, as the Jews did.

One could also view these verses as speaking of the ceremonial feast days: This is the view taken by Matthew Henry in his commentary on Romans....

"Concerning days, v. 5. Those who thought themselves still under some kind of obligation to the ceremonial law esteemed one day above another—kept up a respect to the times of the passover, pentecost, new moons, and feasts of tabernacles; thought those days better than other days, and solemnized them accordingly with particular observances, binding themselves to some religious rest and exercise on those days. Those who knew that all these things were abolished and done away by Christ’s coming esteemed every day alike. We must understand it with an exception of the Lord’s day, which all Christians unanimously observed; but they made no account, took no notice, of those antiquated festivals of the Jews."

At any rate, one cannot use these verses to justify the nullification of the Sabbath. There is just not enough there to do so.

along with what Paul carried back from Jerusalem to Antioch....Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.

If you are using these verses to justify the nullification of the sabbath, then you must also use it to nullify all the commandments that are not SPECIFICALLY stated in these four! Was it still wrong for the gentiles to lie, steal, murder etc? Of course, this does not nullify the 10 commandments, these can be equated with the apostles as judges determining how the law should be applied in a specific people and culture, as Moses did in Deutoronomy.

amother thingy..paul many times over in his mail mentions who would not inherit the kingdom(we all know the list(s) and not even once does he mention sabbath breakers.even the good-deeder James never mentions sabbath breaking.
and anoooother lil' thingy....whenever a meeting on a sabbath is mentioned it usually paul trying to "persuade" the jews and God-fearers in some quaint out of the way rustic synagogue that Jesus was in fact the messiah that was to come.i cannot remember any actual christian sabbath gathering (on this i could be wrong)

Acts 13:42-44 "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God."

It is very interesting that Paul did not say to the gentiles, "there is no need to wait till next sabbath! We can meet tomorrow on the Lord's day"

Was Paul not preaching during the week? Was Paul not preaching on Sunday and partaking of the "Lord's Supper"? There is a lot of questions that stem from these verses that don't harmonize with what you appear to believe about the sabbath.

The assertion is that Paul only worshipped on the sabbath because the Jews met that day in the synagogues and that was the best time and place for him to proslytize them. Is this what happened in Acts 16?

Acts 16:13 "And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted [thither]. "

Phillippi was a pagan city/colony. There was no synagogue. They had to go out of the city to pray becasue they did not want to worship God where the Pagans worshipped their gods. Why did they do this on the Sabbath? Why is the scriptures specific about which day they did this?

Acts 18:2-4 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers. And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."

Here Paul is said to be persuading Jews AND greeks in the synagogue on the sabbath. It mentions nothing of another day that he spent preaching the gospel, why? Is it because it wasn't important? Or because the other days he was busy making tents to support his ministry? Further on in the chapter...

Acts 18:11 "And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them."

Paul continued on reasoning in the synagogue on the sabbath a full year and a half. That is 78 sabbaths that Paul apparently kept! How many times in the new testament is there a reference to the "first day" as a day to worship on? ONCE, 1 time in the whole new testament! To me that is proof enough!

and yes Ro. 14:5 "contradicts the 10 commandments" as you put it

As I said above, you must first prove Paul was speaking of the sabbath before it could contradict the 4th commandment, and you will have a hard time doing that! I am sure you can reason it away in your mind, but can't we do that with anything?
 
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Loveaboveall

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I believe the problems with the "Israel" discussion could be solved with simply using the term "spiritual Israel" or "Spiritual Jew" Which I think everyone here would agree we are as we are considered the seed of Abraham, who is the father of Israel. Of course spiritually not physically.
 
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Rainie

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Friend, It's no mystery that God firstly and prophetically promised the Children of Israel (COI) the new covenant. But to conclude that only the COI will be given the New Covenant is not true. Yes they were promised it, and that why it's written "He came unto His own and they recieved Him not."
Jhn 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Jhn 1:11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jhn 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.




Paul's sorrow and anguish is because the COI had betrayed "the seed," Jesus, and killed His followers. They had rejected the Christ. Paul's life before the Damascus road appearance of Jesus proves that Jews have a zeal to serve God but not according to knowlege.
It is written' "the just shall live by faith" and not by blood or the will of man.





Your arguments does change the written truth that you ignore. The word of God is the bottom line.
;)

CRIB

Scripture does support that true believers are apart of Israel. Romans 11 is a good place to start. Are you saying that the Christian church has now replaced, Israel?

Romans 11.
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


Ephesians 2:12-13
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.



The Gentiles will be 'grafted into' Israel, it is not the other way around and we'd best not get arrogant against Israel!

If you do not believe that you are 'grafted in' to Israel then that is your belief.
We will have to agree to disagree!
I am apart of Israel to who pertain the Covenants etc.



God Bless
Rain
 
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Rainie

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Rainie, I hope in our agreement you don't think that it comes down to race. Christ is the seed whose name is also 'Israel'. When you believe you are grafted into Him whose name is Israel. He is the root of the olive tree.

Yes, many of the direct descendants of the lost tribes and even many Jews are 'in' the church, among the Gentiles... because the lost tribes had become like the Gentiles.

Joh 7:35 Then the Jews said among themselves, Where is he about to go that we shall not find him? Is he about to go to the Dispersion of the Greeks, and to teach the Greeks?

Many scholars point out there has only ever been one Dispersion, and that was of the lost tribes of Israel. They had become so much like the Gentiles they were only recognized as Greeks. There has never been a Dispersion of the Greeks.

Jesus purchased the 'field', which is the world, so He could have the treasure in the field, Israel. But He still purchased the whole of mankind. And if you are in Christ then you ARE grafted into Israel (Christ). It has nothing to do with race anymore. Because He has purchased the whole world, He also pulls in those who are NOT physically descended from Israel.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that outwardly in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart; in spirit and not in letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

I do not believe that being apart of Israel is a matter of race. ALL who are "true" believers are apart of Israel. :clap:
 
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Rainie

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what i meant to say is...the COI are no longer a special peeps,a chosen race,etc.(Disclaimer; THIS IS ONLY MY UNLEARNED OPINION).anyone that "accepts Jesus as Lord&Saviour"has become a "Royal Priesthood"(1 Peter 2:9, 10;written to Gentiles).I'm thinking the christian church itself is the israel of God(spiritual Israel).

sooo,by saying were grafted into "israel" to me doesn't mean we are a part of the children of israel (in its popular usage)

Romans 11 tells ME...
1. Some faithful Jews who believe in Christ are counted among the elect of God; the rest of the nation are blind (verses 5-8).
2. All but the believing remnant have been cast away (verse 15).
3. The majority of unbelieving Jews are likened to branches that have been broken off from a parent olive tree (verses 17-20; compare John 15:5). The parent stock is Christ.
4. The only way rejected Jews can be acceptable to God again is by believing in Christ (verse 23).
5. Believing Jews are grafted back into the parent stock again in the same way as believing Gentiles (verse 24).

Well, 100% disagree with you.
The Christian Church is not the New Spiritual Church. ALL "true" believer's are Israel. Romans 11 says that we should not be haughty or arrogant against the natural branches!
I will never believe that I have replaced the "nature" branches!!

God Bless
Rain
 
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Rainie

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Jesus as well as King David benefited from "disregarding the law".Jesus tells the knuckleheads they would benefit from "disregarding the law".if in the chance a work mule,slave or whatever else punched a time clock back in the day were in danger.yet Jesus goes a bit further to say the obsolete 7th day sabbath was made for man ....you know the rest...

Huh? :scratch:
Again explain this further. If Jesus disregarded the Law then He is not the perfect Lamb! If you believe that Messiah broke the Law (or disregarded it) then you are in a dangerous spot because Messiah was perfect, it he sinned He is not Messiah!!!!
I hope this is not what you are saying, please clarify!
King David, LOVED the Law deeply, read Psalms 119!!!!

God Bless Rain
 
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Rainie

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I don't agree that law keeping is our sanctification...
1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

The entire Torah disagrees with that, your statement.
The Law is eternal
Holy Means Set-Apart.
That Law is absolutely for the sanctification (Holiness/Set-apart) of Israel!
I agree with the scripture but not your statement.

God Bless
 
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Rainie

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let me just add this.....this is how backwards we people are concerning Gods word these days....
theres a MJ board in CF that will not let you post any refutations to the "trinity".these are the same peeps bragging in here about keeping kosher,wearing tzi-tzi,not turning on lights on the sabbath( talmudic crap),wouldnt even dare calling God, God(G-d)yeshuah...Jesus ,you get my drift.
and some of the SDA have messaged me calling me a hellenized-pagan...loooool cause i wont keep the 7th day as a sabbath...we are mixed up man.really sad stuff.

Wearing Tassels (Tzit-Tzit) is a God given command, so is, keeping kosher. I would be VERY careful not to credit what is God's to what is man made (no turning on a light, Talmud).
This is Talmudic Crap??? Whowwww back off it is the WORD OF GOD.
Yikes, be careful, this is what is called blasphemy :eek:

Numbers 15
37 Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 38 “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners. 39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the LORD and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God. 41 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.”


Leviticus 11

1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2areare on the earth: 3and chewing the cud—that you may eat. 45 the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is6is7 and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. 8 Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.
“Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves unclean to you; the animals which you may eat among all the animals that the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves,
Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; unclean to you;


9 ‘These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat. 10 But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which isare an abomination to you. 11 They shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination. 12 Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales—that shall be an abomination to you.
13 ‘And these you shall regard as an abomination among the birds; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the buzzard, 14 the kite, and the falcon after its kind; 1516 the ostrich, the short-eared owl, the sea gull, and the hawk after its kind; 17 the little owl, the fisher owl, and the screech owl; 18 the white owl, the jackdaw, and the carrion vulture; 19 the stork, the heron after its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.
20 ‘All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. 21 Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. 22 These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. 23 But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you. in the water, they every raven after its kind,
 
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PattyOfurniture

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And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The Gentiles will be 'grafted into' Israel, it is not the other way around and we'd best not get arrogant against Israel!
Rain
(verse 24) Believing Jews are grafted back into the parent stock again in the same way as believing Gentiles .,so it is in a manner of speaking "the other way around" actually. and please dont miss the very important part of v. 23...
"And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in
"
GBU
 
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PattyOfurniture

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Wearing Tassels (Tzit-Tzit) is a God given command, so is, keeping kosher. I would be VERY careful not to credit what is God's to what is man made (no turning on a light, Talmud).
This is Talmudic Crap??? Whowwww back off it is the WORD OF GOD.
Yikes, be careful, this is what is called blasphemy :eek:
read my post again...if i wasn't clear its my fault.let me explain.i was only calling turning on the lights on sabbath as talmudic.and yes talmud is bad news bears...okay,fair enough.show me from the torah ("WORD OF GOD")where you are not allowed to manipulate a light-switch on shabbos
 
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PattyOfurniture

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The entire Torah disagrees with that, your statement.
The Law is eternal
Holy Means Set-Apart.
That Law is absolutely for the sanctification (Holiness/Set-apart) of Israel!
I agree with the scripture but not your statement.

God Bless
THE LAW IS ETERNAL? ermm circumcision,sacrifices,stoning for pickin' up fire wood on the 7th day,etc....
i'm not getting all this.
 
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PattyOfurniture

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Huh? :scratch:
Again explain this further. If Jesus disregarded the Law then He is not the perfect Lamb! If you believe that Messiah broke the Law (or disregarded it) then you are in a dangerous spot because Messiah was perfect, it he sinned He is not Messiah!!!!
I hope this is not what you are saying, please clarify!
King David, LOVED the Law deeply, read Psalms 119!!!!

God Bless Rain
yes King David "loved the Law",he also broke the law.even Jesus says this(eating the shewbread...)is it your opinion King David did not break the Law when he had bathshebas better 1/2 snuffed out?when he ordered the census,had lunch in the Temple,etc?
 
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PattyOfurniture

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I believe the problems with the "Israel" discussion could be solved with simply using the term "spiritual Israel" or "Spiritual Jew" Which I think everyone here would agree we are as we are considered the seed of Abraham, who is the father of Israel. Of course spiritually not physically.
yupperz..
GBU
 
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Rainie

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(verse 24) Believing Jews are grafted back into the parent stock again in the same way as believing Gentiles .,so it is in a manner of speaking "the other way around" actually. and please dont miss the very important part of v. 23...
"And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in
"
GBU

So the Christian Church has replaced Israel?
 
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Rainie

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read my post again...if i wasn't clear its my fault.let me explain.i was only calling turning on the lights on sabbath as talmudic.and yes talmud is bad news bears...okay,fair enough.show me from the torah ("WORD OF GOD")where you are not allowed to manipulate a light-switch on shabbos

Re-read post 72, I never said turning on the lights was in the Torah, I said it was Talmudic.
I agree the teaching of the Talmud can be dangerous but that is not the point of this thread.
 
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Rainie

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THE LAW IS ETERNAL? ermm circumcision,sacrifices,stoning for pickin' up fire wood on the 7th day,etc....
i'm not getting all this.

Take it up with God then. Don't you have circumcision of the heart? Don't you need Christ's sacrifice? Don't you want Christ as your High Priest? :doh:
The stoning on the Sabbath is a silly argument. Christ dies to pay for our transgression of the Law. That does not mean we should not obey it just means that He covers us.

The Law is Eternal in my book and it is Eternal in the Good Book.
READ THE OLD TESTAMENT! :clap:
 
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