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Why does a good God allow pain and suffering to exist in this world?

eleos1954

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eleos, why did God allow Satan to be in the Garden to tempt Adam and Eve with the fruits of the forbidden tree?
God created all His intelligent beings with choice (Love must be a choice) It's not just about us ... sin began in heaven ... lucifer passing around lies about God ... (we don't need God, we don't need God's laws). So when lucifer was passing around lies from the angels perspective ... was this true or false? How would they know for sure? They at the time did not know what the dire consequences of sin would be. So, rather than just destroying lucifer and the rebellious angels (which would have been seen as by force - not love) He allowed and does allow all to make choices.

Lucifer, who was once a “covering cherub”, was responsible to uphold and protect or “cover” this law. However, rebellion began because “iniquity” or sin was found in Lucifer. And what is sin? “Sin is the transgression of the law.” I John 3:4. Lucifer, who was supposed to defend the law of God, the very foundation of the government of heaven, rebelled against it. As a result, there was war in heaven.

God don't force any of His created beings to love ... love must be a choice ... we all know that.

So, He cast lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels and allowed them to rule on planet earth so that ALL can see what sin (transgression of the law) causes/produces. This act restored peace in heaven ... but the question still remained ... can Gods created creatures peacefully exist without Gods law? So God allowed the lucifer and the fallen 1/3 to continue on .... on planet earth. They were judged but execution of that judgement was placed in the future ... delayed until proof could be seen by all the universe.

In the future when God executes His final judgement for all ... He will indeed will use His power to destroy ... but there will be no question of His justification for doing so by anyone in the universe ... because all have seen the dire consequences of sin (transgression of the law) as it was allowed to play out fully on planet earth serves as the ultimate undeniable proof to the universe of what sin (transgression of the law) causes.

Even so, because of Gods love of mankind He created a way for mankind to be redeemed but that way is also a choice (through Jesus), He did this because of love (with a choice ... through Jesus)

John 3

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

It always comes back to God's law (they are the reflection of His perfect character) ... when kept perfectly (only Jesus) did ... love is manifested through it ... but it must be a choice ... it can't be forced. The law are laws of love and are to be willingly kept out of love and for no other reasons.

John 14:15-31 GNT“If you love me, you will obey my commandments.

Choices ... all of Gods created intelligent beings have always had choices and still do. Love is a choice.

Love must be a choice.

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

God can not force anyone to do this (love) .... else would be a bunch of robots.

People have some negative and strange ideas about God's law ... there is nothing wrong with them whatsoever ... when kept out of love they produce love and most certainly nothing wrong with that. The motive is to be love ... because God is love ... that's His motive and is to be our motive .... love is not just something He does .... rather who He is. When we accept Jesus we are being transformed back into His image ... the image of Love by choice ... willingly.
 
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nalex1066

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Now I believe God is sitting back & saying “Okay this worldly state of affairs is what you have allowed, condone, participate in, encourage sort it out if your so determined.”
As with the people of God in the Old Testament “ Turn to Me , honour Me, trust Me alone.”
 
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Felix.manuel

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First of all, it is important to clarify that I do not consider myself 'much more just or better than God.' Where did you get this absurd idea from? What I am doing is exercising my right and ability to question and seek coherence in the claims about the nature of God. Reason and critical thinking are gifts, if you prefer, that allow us to explore and understand the world around us.

Regarding the issue of the duality of good and evil, I acknowledge that many argue that without the negative we cannot appreciate the positive. However, this does not necessarily justify the existence of extreme suffering, natural disasters, or atrocious evils that I mention in my OP. The search for a deeper understanding of the reasons behind suffering is not an attempt to 'place oneself above God,' but rather to better understand the justice and goodness that supposedly characterize the deity.

As for the personal and emotional impact, yes, the loss of my friend certainly influenced my perspective, just as any significant experience influences a person's worldview. However, this does not invalidate the questions I am raising here in this topic (which unfortunately Christians have failed to answer). In fact, these experiences often motivate a deeper search for answers and understanding.

As rational and thinking beings (given that reason and thought are 'gifts from God'), it is our right and, in many cases, our duty, to question and seek an understanding that aligns with the principles of justice and morality that we consider fundamental, right?

Finally, it is important to recognize that humanism, like any other philosophy, can face challenges in difficult times. However, it also offers an approach based on empathy, solidarity, and the intrinsic value and dignity of every human being, regardless of circumstances. This perspective is not an attempt to 'overcome God' or to 'think oneself better or more just than God,' but a way to find meaning and purpose in our existence.
 
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Felix.manuel

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This argument that our limited understanding might prevent us from seeing the purpose of evil and suffering is, in essence, very similar to an appeal to the unknown. Yes, it is true that our perceptions are limited, but this does not automatically justify the existence of the extreme and seemingly senseless suffering I mention in my OP. The argument that "all evil serves a greater good" is difficult to verify and often seems like an attempt to reconcile the existence of evil with the belief in an omnipotent and benevolent God without providing concrete evidence. And I don't see how this nullifies the Epicurean trilemma. This sounds like some kind of analogy of the doctor who causes pain to heal, and I see that it is often used by Christians, but it is not entirely applicable. I am not a doctor, but doctors understand the purpose of pain and see tangible positive results in it. But in the case of extreme and seemingly unjustified suffering, I think this does not apply; often there is no discernible greater good or satisfactory explanation. The pain of surgery is justified by the subsequent healing, but genocides, devastating natural disasters, and terminal and congenital diseases in small children do not offer a clear and direct correlation with a greater good that justifies these sufferings. At least, that is how I see it.

It is true that suffering can teach empathy and consideration; I agree with that. But this does not imply that extreme and unjustified suffering is necessary or justified. Many argue that an omnipotent being could create a world where we learn and grow through other, less traumatic and painful means. The existence of extreme suffering, which goes beyond what is necessary to teach lessons of empathy, remains a challenge to the idea of an entirely good God.

The notion that an entirely good God would allow evil if it served a greater end raises questions about the nature of this greater end and why it could not be achieved otherwise. If God is omnipotent, He should be able to create a world where good is achieved without the need for extreme and unjustified suffering or could have created something like a heaven. The justification that the minimum necessary evil is allowed still faces the problem of explaining the massive and seemingly purposeless suffering we see in the world. The idea that the crucifixion of Jesus provides a definitive answer to the problem of human suffering is seen by many skeptics as unsatisfactory. The fact that God chose to suffer does not resolve the question of "why" He allows innocent beings to suffer in horrible and unnecessary ways. The crucifixion can be interpreted as a symbolic act of empathy and God's acknowledgment of pain (Christians say that God felt our pain through Jesus on the Cross), but even this does not explain why an omnipotent and benevolent God does not create a world where unnecessary suffering does not exist. By arguing that God acted to overcome evil through the suffering of Christ on the cross, believers often ignore the central question: why are evil and suffering necessary in the first place?

The idea that the resurrection of Christ initiates a process of restoration is problematic for many because this process seems incredibly slow and not as efficient as expected. Thousands of years have passed, and suffering continues to be a constant part of the human experience. Furthermore, the notion that suffering is necessary for an "intended end" calls into question the nature of an omnipotent God. If God is truly omnipotent, He should be able to achieve His goals without resorting to such painful and indirect methods, right?

The argument that God allows evil due to human free will is also often criticized. Skeptics argue that it is possible to have free will without the presence of extreme evil. For example, we could have the freedom to choose between options that do not result in extreme and debilitating suffering. The existence of free will does not justify why a benevolent God would allow genocides, torture, or devastating diseases. Another argument that could be used about free will is the fact that God values the free will of some over the free will of others. I will take an example I used in this topic: an honest worker and family man does not choose to be killed on his way to work, yet a man comes and takes his life. In this case, why was the murderer's free will valued more than the victim's free will? This argument shows that the free will argument can be very flawed and very selective.

The notion that God's action against evil does not involve violating the autonomy and free will of His creatures seems like a convenient excuse. An omnipotent being should be able to create a system where the autonomy and free will of creatures do not result in such massive suffering. Moreover, this autonomy seems selective as I said above; many believe that God intervenes in some situations and not in others, which raises questions about His justice and consistency.
 
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Felix.manuel

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And if you think you can come on here and prove yourself more righteous than God, by coming on here and proving that you are much more moral/right/just/righteous than a lot of these christians
Neogaia
No, I don't think that. Oh, please, where did I say or "prove" that I am more just than God and more just and moral than Christians?

Please, man.
 
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Felix.manuel

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Objective morality does not necessarily depend on the existence of a divine being. Many philosophers and scientists argue that our morality evolved as a necessity for survival and social cohesion. For example, societies that consider murder wrong tend to be more stable and successful, which suggests an evolutionary basis for moral norms. This means that our sense of right and wrong can be explained through evolution and social needs, without resorting to a deity. The claim that without God morality is just a matter of opinion ignores the complexity of ethics as a whole. Secular ethical systems, such as utilitarianism, Kantian ethics, and human rights, offer robust foundations for morality without invoking a deity. These systems are based on rational and universal principles that transcend mere personal opinions. It is true that people can be influenced by propaganda and education, but this does not invalidate the human capacity to discern right from wrong. Human morality is multifaceted and can be reinforced by cultural values, laws, and personal experiences. Saying that morality depends exclusively on God oversimplifies human nature and ignores the contributions of philosophy, psychology, and sociology in understanding ethics. I am not an atheist, but saying that murder should be considered wrong solely because God exists is not a convincing argument, and it gives the impression that many theists are not murderers just because God exists. Thus, the argument that morality depends on a specific deity is a weak argument.

The Nazis, like many other perpetrators of atrocities, justified their acts based on a distorted ideology, not on the absence of a belief in God. Secular ethics condemn such acts based on universal principles of human rights and human dignity, which do not require a divine moral basis. Despite this, I believe that secular ethics derive from Christian ethics, but this does not prove that Christianity as a whole is true or that one must believe in a specific God to behave morally.

Morality evolves and adapts over time. The recognition of women's rights, the acceptance of homosexuality, and the understanding of gender identity issues are examples of how society become more inclusive and understanding. These changes are based on a deeper understanding of human dignity and respect and do not indicate a loss of distinction between good and evil.

Science does not seek to provide a moral purpose but to understand the workings of the universe. I don't know where science says that life is just chance and just coincidence. The idea that life arose through natural processes does not diminish its value. Many find purpose and meaning in their lives through relationships, achievements, and contributions to society. The question of purpose is deeply personal and does not necessarily depend on a belief in design
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thank you, and I hope to talk to you again. Would you mind if I sent you a PM one of these days?

Hi Felix! Yes, if you'd like to further a discussion on something that interests you, please feel free to PM. I'm always open to that.

Peace.
 
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dlamberth

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So, yeah, you might be able to come on here and prove yourself more righteous than a lot of these christians, etc, but that doesn't make you more better/righteous than God.

God Bless.
Nowhere in my reading @Felix.manuel post do I get a sense of his being more righteous than Christians or better/righteous than God. He's not alone in his line of questioning. Many, including myself has asked the same questions. Spiritually speaking, it's healthy to ask questions. And as a side benefit his line of questioning helps to keep one's mind on God.
 
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Fervent

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This argument that our limited understanding might prevent us from seeing the purpose of evil and suffering is, in essence, very similar to an appeal to the unknown.
In a sense, but it's not meant to overthrow the premise simply challenge it as requiring to be justified rather than assumed.
It doesn't nullify the argument, it is a volley to put the burden of support into the hands of the one forwarding the argument. Because in order to move from its premises to its conclusion it is up to the one presenting the argument to demonstrate the truth of its premises.
The key word here is seemingly, because you're essentially presenting an argument from incredulity. Because you don't understand the purpose does not mean that no purpose exists, it simply means that you do not understand the purpose.
It is true that suffering can teach empathy and consideration; I agree with that. But this does not imply that extreme and unjustified suffering is necessary or justified.
This may be a semantic issue, because I'm curious what you mean by "unjustified" and how you arrived at the conclusion that such suffering exists.
So they think they're more intelligent than a being with omniscience? That they're able to balance every possible consideration?
I'm starting to doubt your sincerity in the claim of wanting to regain your Christian faith...since you seem to be looking for excuses to persist in your unbelief, rather than challenging the premises of your own argument to see if they are actually true. Believers are willing to accept that we are not omniscient, and trust that while we may not know why such suffering exists God does. Since you are arguing that there is no good purpose, it's up to you to demonstrate that statement is actually true rather than to take it as a given.
The idea that the resurrection of Christ initiates a process of restoration is problematic for many because this process seems incredibly slow and not as efficient as expected.
I understand that it is problematic, but when we're considering eternity 10,000 years is the blink of an eye, 4.5 billion years is but a single breath. So "it's taking too long for my liking" is more of a personal issue. And this is not to be dismissive of the experience of pain, but the answer to such pain is not philosophic wrangling but acts of real comforting and support.
Do you believe there is more suffering in the world where Christianity has dominated today than 2000 years ago, no change, or less? How do you think Christianity has contributed to this change, if it has?
Considering skeptics can't figure out whether or not free will exists to begin with, I'll take their criticisms of the conditions necessary for it to exist with a grain of salt.
It's a challenge to the premise that the only meaningful action God could make regarding evil is its prevention. More about challenging whether or not premise 1 is true than about positively arguing against the trilemma. Since Christianity forwards a God who has taken meaningful action regarding evil, the notion that a lack of such action in the form of a lack of prevention challenges omnipotence is false.
 
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Neogaia777

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Well, you guys persist in asking your questions about this issue if you must, while I will just persist in my stance that all this suffering, and these killings, etc, etc, etc, are all to move us towards a much higher greater good, or goal, or purpose or aim.

If they are honest questions, then I apologize, and if they are honest questions, then you guys should most definitely persist in asking them, and I will just watch and wait to see where you guys go from here with them, if that's ok.

It's when I get the sense that they are not honest that I get upset. Anyway, sorry, ok.

God Bless.
 
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Astrid

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I'm attracted to the idea that everywhere one looks, there God is. That's' me wondering if that's where your spiritual world takes you.
There's some real ugly things in some directions.
 
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Felix.manuel

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The Epicurean trilemma is a form of argumentation based on premises that many consider reasonable. The responsibility to demonstrate the validity of these premises does not fall solely on the one presenting the trilemma, but also on those who propose exceptions or justifications for the existing evil. If someone argues that there is a greater or unknown purpose for evil, then it is that person who must provide convincing evidence for this claim, not merely assert that 'there may be a purpose.

You say that I present an argument from incredulity, but saying that we cannot comprehend or understand the purpose of evil and therefore cannot judge its justification is an argument from incredulity in itself. It is based on the assumption that our inability to understand something means we must accept that there may be a just reason. However, without concrete evidence of such a purpose, this argument becomes an appeal to ignorance. Simply stating that an unknown purpose may exist is not enough to justify extreme and seemingly unjustified suffering. Tell me, Fervent do you (and also other knowledgeable Christians on this forum) see any reason for a child to be born with congenital diseases and others that I listed in my OP, such as Tay-Sachs disease, Cyclopia, Ethmocephaly, cancers, and the many others I listed? Do you see any reason for God to allow the death of children and women in the gas chambers of Auschwitz? The tragedies I also listed, etc.? As I said, I just want to begin to understand why, if God is good and omnipotent, He allows these things. If I cannot at least comprehend or accept this in some reasonable way, then why did God give me reason and understanding to question these things?

When I refer to suffering as 'unjustified,' I am suggesting that there is a discrepancy between what is observed in the world, in terms of pain, injustice, and suffering, and what would be reasonable to expect in a scenario where an omnipotent and benevolent God is present. In other words, suffering is “unjustified” in the sense that its existence seems to be incongruent with the idea of an all-powerful and loving God.

Understanding the issue of suffering is not about claiming intellectual superiority over an omniscient being. Instead, it is an attempt to understand and reconcile observations of the world with the beliefs and premises that shape our understanding of existence. Skeptics acknowledge that humans have inherent limitations in their understanding of the universe and metaphysical questions. While we may seek knowledge and explore different perspectives, we are still subject to flaws and limitations in our understanding. The idea of omniscience implies knowing all things, including the future and the thoughts and intentions of all beings. However, skeptics may question the very possibility of this absolute knowledge, given the complexity of the universe and human interactions. Furthermore, even if we accept the existence of an omniscient being, we can still question how this knowledge relates to the issue of suffering and injustice.

Doubting my sincerity in seeking to regain my Christian faith does not contribute to the discussion. I genuinely say that I would like to regain faith in the Christian God. But as I have already said, people are simply not obligated to believe what I write here. Doubt is an essential part of critical thinking and the pursuit of truth. Questioning premises and seeking evidence are valid and necessary approaches to evaluating any belief system, including Christianity itself. My intention is not simply to find excuses for disbelief, but to understand if the premises upon which Christian faith is based are true and can be justified. And no, I cannot demonstrate that these claims are indeed true; otherwise, I would not be here with the intention of reconsidering faith. However, they are more reasonable than simply asserting that there is a "good purpose" in suffering when we do not even know if there is any purpose for extreme sufferings like those I mention in my OP.

I understand that, from the Christian perspective on eternity, long periods like 10,000 years or 4.5 billion years may seem insignificant. However, for humans living in finite time, the perception of delay has a real and significant impact. Arguing that restoration is happening slowly may be "comforting" in a metaphysical sense, but it does not offer a practical solution for those who are suffering here and now. The issue is not only about some form of absolute or timeless time but about how ongoing suffering is justified and addressed in the context of finite human life here in the world.

No, I do not believe there is more suffering in the world today than there was 2000 years ago. Back then, the world was marked by significantly lower life expectancy, high infant mortality, untreated diseases, frequent wars, slavery, and legal and social systems that were often brutal and unequal. It is true that Christian morals and ethics have influenced many positive aspects of our society, such as the creation of hospitals, works of art, science, culture, charity works, social justice movements, and so on. However, it is also important to recognize that throughout history, Christianity has been used to justify acts of oppression, violence, persecution, inquisition, and intolerance. And I also see no reason for the Christian God to have allowed sufferings that occurred before Christianity and those that occurred after Christianity.

It is true. But the difficulty in determining whether free will exists is not exclusive to skeptics. Even within religious and philosophical traditions that advocate for the existence of free will, there are considerable debates about its nature and implications. The uncertainty surrounding free will is a universal problem, not restricted to any specific group of thinkers.

Even if we accept that in Christianity God took significant steps against evil, that does not explain why He did not choose to prevent evil completely. If God is truly omnipotent, He should be able to create a world where evil does not exist, or at the very least, significantly minimize the amount of suffering and injustice.
 
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Fervent

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The Epicurean trilemma is a form of argumentation based on premises that many consider reasonable.
I am aware
The responsibility to demonstrate the validity of these premises does not fall solely on the one presenting the trilemma, but also on those who propose exceptions or justifications for the existing evil.
Burden of proof lies on the claimant, in the case of the trilemma the claimant is the one presenting it as significant. If you can't demonstrate the truth of your premises, there's no reason for anyone to bother with your argument. Unless your only goal in arguing is to persuade the already convinced.
If someone argues that there is a greater or unknown purpose for evil, then it is that person who must provide convincing evidence for this claim, not merely assert that 'there may be a purpose.
Depends on if there in the process of presenting an argument, or if they're responding to someone else presenting an argument. If the premises of the trilemma can't be demonstrated to be true, there's no reason to take it seriously.
Nope, an argument from incredulity is the statement that because I don't understand something, therefore it must be false. But that's not what I've said at all, simply that we cannot assume that there isn't a purpose so in order to accept the 2nd premise as significant its truth must first be demonstrated.
Isn't that what you claim to be trying to prove via the trilemma? So you just assume it to be the case?
so-called "skeptics" only ever seem to be skeptical of the beliefs of other people, rather than their own. Wonder why?
If you were sincere in your attempt, you wouldn't be combative and trying to defend skepticism for the sake of skepticism. Especially because you don't seem to be applying any kind of skepticism to the premises of your argument, but instead are trying to argue for why we should accept them a priori. You seem intent to combat anyone who provides you with input, instead of trying to better understand what they mean.
No academic answer would offer people who are suffering here and now comfort, even when we know the purpose of our pain it is still just as difficult to deal with. A God who is present in suffering is far more comforting to folks than having answers, though I will admit that a lot of Christians fail on providing comfort to the hurting in any meaningful sense so there is a failing on the part of Christians in that department.
So Christ's act has brought some alleviation to evil in the world, but it's incomplete? That'd be my estimate, too. We're better off since Christ, but there's a lot of work yet to be done.

And I'd like to point out that far more is made of the violence and intolerance that has happened in the name of Christianity than is justified, IMO. Mostly because those incidents were largely exceptional within the course of Christian history, and were more of a result of secular political divisions than as a result of the teachings of Christ.
Sure, but if we both agree that free will exists isn't it more important to discuss the implications of certain actions rather than getting into various schools of thought that deny it? And if human beings can't even figure out whether or not it exists, how can we believe anyone who claims to know what is required for it to exist?
No, it doesn't explain it. But then I don't see why an explanation would be needed, since the basis of the first premise is that an all-powerful God would use His power to act to put an end to evil by preventing it. But that's certainly not something we can take as a prior, because we can't even fathom what is going on in the mind of a cosmic intelligence. Especially because there is a second issue in assuming that an omnipotent God couldn't retro-actively eliminate evil after it has served its purpose. As the Bible says:

I will restore to you the years
that the swarming locust has eaten,
the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter,
my great army, which I sent among you.
(Joel 2:25, ESV)
 
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Bobber

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God's healing power is always present everywhere! His glorious spiritual substance fills both Heaven and Earth! He's still here by his attributes and power and longs to release his ability in your behalf! Well why doesn't he do it then? In the true sense he already has. To illustrate public utilities has already released enormous power through it's hydro lines.

Electricity flows through your home through every circuit and outlet. It stands ready and available for you to enjoy it's benefit but you have your part to play, you are responsible the onus is on you to do the simple.....FLIP THE SWITCH! Then and only then will you house lights be illuminated. In the same way our Lord of mercy has already released his power to the Earth! He's not going to do it. It's already done! The power to strengthen, save and yes even heal from whatever affliction has one bound is here now present!

Where is it? It's in the gospel. The preaching of the gospel when believed releases the power of God! Jesus came and preached deliverance! He preached recovery of sight to the blind! People were healed and delivered when they heard what he said. God's potent healing power is contained in his WORD. Psalms 105 says, "He sent his WORD and healed them. What is the Bible? It is not a dead religious book nor is it a collection of good moral stories. It is rather what it calls itself to be....a Testament.

The word Testament literally means a covenant. In our present day we use the word contract. Unions make contracts with companies. A contract among many things reveals to you your rights and what belongs to you. A person however may have certain rights they belong to him but he still may not enjoy their benefits in fact it's possible they may never do so. He may not know his rights or he may know but has failed to make use of them. Either way he may go without while others receive.

The Bible is a covenant or contract. Jesus shared it's articles in a word we call preaching. Healing for the sick and diseased belongs to us! Jesus taught that. The Old Covenant taught all sickness to be a curse, not a blessing but a curse. Deuteronomy 28:61 It's entry to the Earth was at mankind's fall. It came with Satan who is the Father of it all. God's goodness and mercy however was revealed in Jesus.

To sin meant judgment with all of it's curse. Jesus came forth who was pure and sinless. He took our place and became our substitute . A substitute is one who takes the place of another. Jesus took our place on the cross absorbing the full impact of the curse. Your sin, sickness disease and pain was laid on him 2000 years ago. The good news of the gospel is Jesus was wounded for your transgressions, or sins and was bruised for your iniquities Is 53 :5 and also in Mt 8:17 Jesus bore your infirmities and carried your diseases.

He bore them and he carried them for one reason.....so that you need not to,. This is your redemptive, covenant right and God watches over his word to perform it. Ps 89:34 my covenant will I not break nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. He wants to make his word good in your life! Eternal life and healing for your physical body belongs to you. God wants you well! God invites you to make use of your rights and receive his blessings! Come unto me all you which are heavy laden and I will give you rest! The rest of salvation and the rest of healing are yours to enjoy! Glory be to God!
 
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CoreyD

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There's some real ugly things in some directions.
Very true. There is a lot of ugliness and scary things in every direction you look.
Sometimes, we miss the pretty things due to this, and especially if we are in the center of it, it can be hard to see through the fog.



Such things cause some to exclude God from the picture.
If these ugly things were not in view though, would such ones consider putting God in the picture.... perhaps if everywhere we look, there was beauty... even in humankind?
That is a question, I think I would be interested in the answer to.

I'm thinking, in most cases, people would accept God.
However, I could be wrong, since some people would claim that Darwin did not allow his perplexity about nature affect his conclusions, it was science.

I think, careful investigation into everything, rather than making claims of knowing 'everything', is important in finding out the truth on this issue, and others we consider important.
I think you have sincere concerns Estrid, and I like you for that.
Actually, my heart goes out to you.
 
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Astrid

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Friendly thoughts are always appreciated.

I've had my misfortunes but nobody need feel sorry
for me, and I'm not receptive to it.

" Excluding" god(s) for the reason you state is
a very shallow way of thinking, facile, childish.

My response to " god in everything" was shallow too.
But then, I've no use for the whole idea.

I'm not voicing a " concern" re existence of any god.


I don't know why you'd mention Darwin. Some bring him
in as if they see him as a prophet for athleists, a founder
of a cult. Nobody talks about him except christian fundamentalists who see him that way.

What you refer to as a " claim" about Darwin is merely that
he, as a disciplined thinker was intellectally honest.


That being, after all, at the absolute core of science,
anyone lacking that integrity is a sham and incapable of
doing science.

So...why bring Darwin into this?

A world consulting only if wonderful things is an absurd concept, IMO, and not worth thinking about.


Is your topic there is that atheists are by nature intellectally
dishonest and nothing whatsoever could shake their
disbelief?

I've heard that often enough.


I do have a counter suggestion to make, along with
live examples, if you want to pursue whether your apparent belief about me and other atheists is fair,
or maybe projection .

Investigate what is true, see who it is that claims to
possess infallible knowledge. Yes. Good idea.
 
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BCP1928

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Right. God does not allow pain and suffering. He allows us to allow it if we want.
 
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CoreyD

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Is your topic there is that atheists are by nature intellectally
dishonest and nothing whatsoever could shake their
disbelief?
I would be foolish to think that.
Not only foolish, but self righteous.
As I said, I think you are sincere. Many atheist are.

I've heard that often enough.
Not from me.

I do have a counter suggestion to make, along with
live examples, if you want to pursue whether your apparent belief about me and other atheists is fair,
or maybe projection .
I think, you might be a little bit on the defensive.
Might I suggest you relax a bit. We aren't "out to get you".
I'd like to hear your suggestion though, if you care to share it.

Investigate what is true, see who it is that claims to
possess infallible knowledge. Yes. Good idea.
Yes. Investigate everything with an open mind. That's always good.
 
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