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Why does "15 Questions for Evolutionists" brochure confuse the meaning of "evolution?

AV1611VET

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You are incorrect. Abiogenesis is not a biology question. It is a Chemistry question.
As I have pointed out more than once, abiogenesis is a joke.

Abiogenesis means "not biogenesis."

Meaning life didn't start from "biogenesis."

It's like asking, "Who parked his car in my spot?" and Joe saying, "It wasn't Fred."

Abiogenesis says how life didn't start, not how life started.

And for about the fifth time:
Abiogenesis or biopoiesis is the theory that biological life arose from inorganic matter through natural processes.

SOURCE
 
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And-U-Say

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Actually, God is so great He could even turn a Democrat into an intelligent life form.

Granted, he hasn't done it yet....

(PS. That is humor. for those of you who have never seen it before.)

I have seen humor before. This is a political rant disguised as humor. And a poor disguise it is. I think the evidence much more strongly support the other party as the one that needs an injection of intelligence.
 
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KWCrazy

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You are incorrect. Abiogenesis is not a biology question. It is a Chemistry question.
Sorry, but you're WRONG!!
As soon as it becomes life it is a biology question. However, it's a moot point since it's biologically AND CHEMICALLY impossible for amino acids to form protiens even under the most perfectly controlled circumstances; let alone to form the 200 protiens needed for even the simplest life form to exist. For it to happen in nature is mathematically unsound, which is why even the most hard core atheist evolutionists shy away from abiogenesis.
 
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And-U-Say

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As I have pointed out more than once, abiogenesis is a joke.

Abiogenesis means "not biogenesis."

Meaning life didn't start from "biogenesis."

It's like asking, "Who parked his car in my spot?" and Joe saying, "It wasn't Fred."

Abiogenesis says how life didn't start, not how life started.

And for about the fifth time:


SOURCE
You really have a hard time addressing actual posts, don't you. Also, try parsing out that word a little better.
 
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And-U-Say

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Sorry, but you're WRONG!!
As soon as it becomes life it is a biology question. However, it's a moot point since it's biologically AND CHEMICALLY impossible for amino acids to form protiens even under the most perfectly controlled circumstances; let alone to form the 200 protiens needed for even the simplest life form to exist. For it to happen in nature is mathematically unsound, which is why even the most hard core atheist evolutionists shy away from abiogenesis.
And you know this... how? Your pathway here is not the pathway that real Scientists are exploring on this issue. i suggest you stay away from creationist sites if you intend to learn anything.

I am a Polymer Chemist with a Fortune 50 company and a Doctorate in Organic Chemistry. Chuckles, I KNOW that this is a Chemistry question.
 
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verysincere

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Christians don't pester Christians?

Right ... that's why I've asked him twice (or was it three times now), what gender he believes Nymphas was; and am still awaiting an answer.

AV, haven't you figured out yet that people ignore you when you lie?
 
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verysincere

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However, it's a moot point since it's biologically AND CHEMICALLY impossible for amino acids to form protiens [sic] even under the most perfectly controlled circumstances.

Impossible for amino acids to form proteins????

Sad. Just plain sad. (Ignore lists were created for a reason.)
 
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AV1611VET

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Christians don't pester Christians?

Right ... that's why I've asked him twice (or was it three times now), what gender he believes Nymphas was; and am still awaiting an answer.
AV, haven't you figured out yet that people ignore you when you lie?
Why? was it four times? :eek:
 
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KWCrazy

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I am a Polymer Chemist with a Fortune 50 company and a Doctorate in Organic Chemistry. Chuckles, I KNOW that this is a Chemistry question.
When you create a living organism from inert chenicals and win that nobel prize, come back and tell us how creating that life had nothing to to with the study of living organisms.
 
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RainbowDashIsBestPony

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AV1611VET said:
Then you believe that abiogenesis occurs in the food industry?

Don't toss around that "believe" word so eagerly. I have no way of knowing whether it occurs in the food industry or not, so I refuse to draw a conclusion without learning more on the subject. I simply acknowledge that the video's conclusion is built on false assumptions and, as a result, is most likely incorrect.
 
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And-U-Say

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When you create a living organism from inert chenicals and win that nobel prize, come back and tell us how creating that life had nothing to to with the study of living organisms.

When you learn anything, and I mean anything, about Chemistry, you might by able to even hint at contributing to the discussion. But clearly, you know nothing about Chemistry or Science. Your opinion here has no value.
 
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verysincere

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Sorry, but I'm of the mind that, it they're being "dishonest" then why not email them with a response? It's my understanding that they routinely answer them on their site.

Your "understanding" is flawed. Like most Young Earth Creationist websites, open discussion is not allowed and only SOME comments from the public are posted after careful screening. (If you want to see open debate, you need to visit a non-YEC website.)

Many of us have confronted Creation.com, AiG, and other YEC websites but our ANSWERS and REBUTTALS are never seen by the public. (In fact, many find that disagreeing with a creationist ministry leads to IP address bans.) Didn't you wonder why only the LAMEST answers and objections to the Creation.com "15 Questions for Evolutionist" ever appear there? If you don't believe me, visit the various OPEN FORUMS and websites where the 15 questions are thoroughly critiqued and addressed---and notice how (strangely enough) those assessments from professional scientists and Biblical exegetes are nothing like the silly "answers" shot down at Creation.com.

No, censorship is the only thing that is "routine" about such ministry websites. Competent answers are not posted.


Also, if you're in fact "studying" yec's then one would think you'd do more observation, and less antagonizing.

You don't seem to be trying very hard to think through these topics. So tell me: Which approach to you think is MOST LIKELY to collect the most data and detailed responses from Young Earth Creationists and anti-evolution Christians in general: (1) Silent observation, or (2) Intelligent CHALLENGES to their beliefs? I think that you will admit to yourself if not to me that #2 is the best way to collect the most information.

Of course, your choice of the word "antagonize" instead of "disagree" or "challenge" tells me that you already know the answer but that you were simply showing your biases. And that's fine. Because in the process you proved both of my points! Had I posted nothing, you would never have posted to me, would you?!

Keep in mind that I was a Young Earth Creationist speaker/debater for many years. I know the YEC world because, sadly, I was part of it----and must forever share the blame for the damage it has done to Bible-affirming Christ-followers. Unfortunately, ALL Bible-affirming Christians are routinely judged for the dishonesty and ignorance of the movement's most notorious leaders. And because I helped promote the YEC movement back in the 1960's and 1970's, I have an ethical and Biblical obligation to repair the damage I helped bring about.

The last time I typed "Lying for Jesus" into Google, I got something like 377,000 hits. You and I both know how that unfortunate reputation was cultivated. (Or do you think it some devious plot of "the atheists"? No, we achieved that reputation entirely on our own.)
 
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CabVet

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Sorry, but I'm of the mind that, it they're being "dishonest" then why not email them with a response? It's my understanding that they routinely answer them on their site. Also, if you're in fact "studying" yec's then one would think you'd do more observation, and less antagonizing.

They are dishonest, and since you asked nicely I will go by them, point by point and explain why:

1. How did life originate? This question is not related to evolution. There has to be something there for it to evolve. The subject that you want to talk about here is abiogenesis.

2. How did the DNA code originate? See the explanation above.

3. How could mutations—accidental copying mistakes (DNA ‘letters’ exchanged, deleted or added, genes duplicated, chromosome inversions, etc.)—create the huge volumes of information in the DNA of living things? This is the first valid question that actually relates to evolution, and it has many answers. There is an interesting article about this subject here. Please follow the link, I will not copy and paste giant walls of text.

4. Why is natural selection, a principle recognized by creationists, taught as ‘evolution’, as if it explains the origin of the diversity of life? Natural selection is evolution, and evolution is natural selection, I cannot stress this enough. The ones trying to redefine evolution are creationists, not evolutionary biologists. If you accept natural selection you accept evolution. Period. The question should not be whether evolution is natural selection or not (which it is), but rather, if natural selection can generate the diversity of life seen in nature (which it can).

5. How did new biochemical pathways, which involve multiple enzymes working together in sequence, originate? By the sums of it's parts. All enzymes in complex pathways could have worked independently and performed other functions. Ever heard that the saying "the whole is greater that the sum of the parts"? That's what it is.

6. Living things look like they were designed, so how do evolutionists know that they were not designed? Living things do not look like they were designed. The question is flawed because the assumption is flawed. Living things evolved to occupy their present habitat. Some species closely related to kangaroos look like wolves in Tasmania. Evolution and common ancestry offer explanations to that: they evolved to fill the niche because there were no wolves. Why would a designer create wolf-like kangaroos in Tasmania instead of just putting already designed wolves there?

7. How did multi-cellular life originate? There is a lot of research ongoing in this topic, for updates check this website and this website. Again, not pasting a wall of text.

8. How did sex originate? This is not an easy question to answer simply because there are many competing hypotheses to explain it. And I am sure this is the reason why creationists ask it. If you want a good explanation of how the field looks at the moment, check here. But let me put this very clearly to you, the fact that we do not clearly know how sex evolved does not invalidate evolution. It is not even evidence against evolution. That would be like saying that since we don't know what Jesus' dietary preferences were, he really did not exist.

9. Why are the (expected) countless millions of transitional fossils missing? The most misleading question so far. Even though there are hundreds of transitional fossils, we do not expect there to be "countless millions". The process of formation of fossils is a very rare event, the fossil record is very incomplete, the fact that we do have transitional fossils is already exceptional.

10. How do ‘living fossils’ remain unchanged over supposed hundreds of millions of years, if evolution has changed worms into humans in the same time frame? Even though evolution has the potential to change species very quickly, it also favors the persistence of species that are doing well, as long as their environment remains constant. In other words, evolution does not require that everything changes.

11. How did blind chemistry create mind/ intelligence, meaning, altruism and morality? The most misleading question so far. "Blind chemistry" did not create altruism and morality, complex behavioral, ecological and biological interactions among organisms did. Here is a list containing explanations for the evolution of altruism and morality.

12. Why is evolutionary ‘just-so’ story-telling tolerated? Here they use a quote by Dr. Philip Skell using his title and highlight the fact that he is a member of the US National Academy of Sciences, the highest honor a scientist can get nationally in the US. Typically though, they do not mention that his field of expertise is chemistry. Evolution is not story telling, evolution is data gathering, and all the data collected in evolutionary biology studies fits evolutionary theory and not a supernatural creation or "intelligent design".

13. Where are the scientific breakthroughs due to evolution? If you think this question is important, I have this to ask you: Where are the scientific breakthroughs due to creationism? Again they cite the above article by Skell to support they assumption that there are no "scientific breakthroughs due to evolution". This is a blatant lie. All of biology relies in evolution. But even with all of that said, if you are interested in hearing the answer to this question check this website.

14. Science involves experimenting to figure out how things work; how they operate. Why is evolution, a theory about history, taught as if it is the same as this operational science? Another false assumption, evolution is not a theory about history, it is a theory about how organisms evolve and adapt to their environments.

15. Why is a fundamentally religious idea, a dogmatic belief system that fails to explain the evidence, taught in science classes? To support this assumption they use a quote by Karl Popper. What they do not say is that, a few years later, after reading about the material, Popper also said this: "I have changed my mind about the testability and logical status of the theory of natural selection, and I am glad to have the opportunity to make a recantation." Source: Popper, K (1978). "Natural selection and the emergence of mind". Dialectica (32): 339–355. I can tell you that there are many ways to refute evolution. Let me give you one example, the Bible says that fruit bearing trees came before fish, a fossil fruit tree older than all of the fossil fish that we have today not only would be evidence against evolution, it would also be evidence for creationism.
 
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Split Rock

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So then you AGREE or DISAGREE with Mr. Missler?

Mr. Missler's video is silly, which is why it is routinely ridiculed.
1. There is hardly enough time for new life to form in a jar of peanut butter
2. The conditions are not correct for life to form in a jar of peanut butter.
3. There is no energy source in a jar of peanut butter.
4. Even if there was life in the jar of peanut butter he opens, he would never see it with the naked eye.
 
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Split Rock

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You are incorrect. Abiogenesis is not a biology question. It is a Chemistry question.

I'm not sure this is a useful line of argument. At some point it becomes biology, and the origin of life is in general, a biology question.
 
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AV1611VET

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Mr. Missler's video is silly, which is why it is routinely ridiculed.
1. There is hardly enough time for new life to form in a jar of peanut butter
2. The conditions are not correct for life to form in a jar of peanut butter.
3. There is no energy source in a jar of peanut butter.
4. Even if there was life in the jar of peanut butter he opens, he would never see it with the naked eye.
You might want to watch the video again.

The jar of peanut butter is one of hundreds of billions of examples; or as the video puts it, the "entire food industry."
 
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RainbowDashIsBestPony

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AV1611VET said:
You might want to watch the video again.

The jar of peanut butter is one of hundreds of billions of examples; or as the video puts it, the "entire food industry."

This video that you keep citing used only peanut butter as a specific example. Why do you immediately pounce whenever someone with a different opinion from yours does the same?
 
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Split Rock

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You might want to watch the video again.

The jar of peanut butter is one of hundreds of billions of examples; or as the video puts it, the "entire food industry."

So you are claiming that he is correct, but just used a poor example with the jar of peanut butter? No. Pick another example if you like, and the same response would be appropriate. Please explain why it would not be.
 
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verysincere

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When you learn anything, and I mean anything, about Chemistry, you might by able to even hint at contributing to the discussion. But clearly, you know nothing about Chemistry or Science. Your opinion here has no value.

Your assessment reminds me of an excellent comment posted by Dr. David Levin, a microbiology professor at Boston University, on an Amazon.com discussion forum in response to a Young Earth Creationist who proudly posted a poll which claimed that some 47% of all Americans deny the theory of evolution. Dr. Levin wrote something like "In science, the ignorant don't get a veto. Your opinion simply doesn't matter. Science cares about EVIDENCE."
 
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