Why do you think there are people out there trying to convert you to atheism?

[ConureDelSol]

Since no one appears to have ever related to an athiest here, perhaps a failing Christian, like myself, can shed at least a sliver of light on why many but not all athiests appear hostile and gung-ho about their beliefs.

Seculars, like athiests, are angry. They aren't necessarily at Christianity as a philosophy and way of life. They are angry at it as a religion. They are angry at its practitioners. They are angry at the people who claim this and other religions as their own, yet are hypocritical and/or harmful to society. If we are God's children, then God is responsible for what we do. If we go out of line, they ultimately see God as the one who isn't properly teaching or watching after his children. Or in an athiest's case, the children are running rampant doing whatever they think is right and therefore, there is no God to discipline them.

Seculars are angry because evangelists will spout the same things they have heard all their life. The evangelists will not leave them alone, they claim that they will go to Hell, they shove the reading materials in their face. They are angry because no matter how much the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, something screams to them that it can't be true. That a religion that is supposed to love would condemn certain people, even going so far as petitioning and electing members to Congress to do everything possible to push laws that would make it impossible for these people to live any semblance of a normal life.

Seculars are angry because God has never responded to them. Their life has gone only downhill as a result of Christianity. Their converted friends are now playing the fear tactics of the church, saying that they will burn forever in the fiery pits of Hell and that they are an abomination to God.

They are angry because of the smugness of many Christians who are so convinced that they are right, that they will ignore any and all arguments against their beliefs. Although, I will say that this can be flipped around so that the same could be said of many athiests.

They are angry because God's people have misinterpreted or taken their beliefs too far. They have killed because they believe that is what their God wants. People in history have faced death simply because they do not believe in their religion. God's people have oppressed minorities, limited freedom of expression, and waged wars against those who believe differently from them. It is not the religion itself. It's the way the people of that religion express their faith.

They are angry that Christians insist that the Bible is the Word of God and is perfect despite several glaring mistakes that indicate that flawed people wrote the Bible and therefore it cannot be the Word of God. Once the Bible falls apart, there is nothing. They then become angry because they believe that Christianity has led them to a false hope and that everything they have told them are lies.

Lastly, they believe that by abolishing all religion, that deaths caused by the followers of what deity they represent can be prevented. They believe that there will be less arguments when someone isn't influenced by ideas they see as religious duty. They believe that they are doing something that will better the world as a whole. I know it doesn't all make sense, but understand that anger without reason is still anger and the mind will find a way to twist reality to find a cause for that anger.


Obviously, when I speak of seculars, athiests, and Christians, I am not speaking of ALL of them. I am speaking of some who set a stereotype for their religion or philosophy. I know of many Christians who are wonderful people who set great examples for what a follower of Christ should be. I have also met open-minded, reasonable athiests who are pleasant and willing to discuss religion without turning into hatemongers when they disagree.

As a Christian in a very dark place in her life, I hope that my perspective will help you all understand. Yes, I have lots of anger and no, I don't want to hold on to it. Prayers are appreciated. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

Edit: I made some BIG typos that completely screwed up what I was trying to say. I also wrote this late at night and I'm sure most of you know how that goes...

 

[GadFly]

Since no one appears to have ever related to an athiest here, perhaps a failing Christian, like myself, can shed at least a sliver of light on why many but not all athiests appear hostile and gung-ho about their beliefs.

Seculars, like athiests, are angry. They aren't necessarily at Christianity as a philosophy and way of life. They are angry at it as a religion. They are angry at its practitioners. They are angry at the people who claim this and other religions as their own, yet are hypocritical and/or harmful to society. If we are God's children, then God is responsible for what we do. If we go out of line, they ultimately see God as the one who isn't properly teaching or watching after his children. Or in an athiest's case, the children are running rampant doing whatever they think is right and therefore, there is no God to discipline them.

Your analyses is not realistic theologically. Gad gave you all enlightenment you needed at birth to be able to be an obedient \child. When you came to age, you chose to do your own things. If you are a failure as a Christian, it was your choice and not God's fault. You failed him, He did not fail you.

Seculars are angry because evangelists will spout the same things they have heard all their life. The evangelists will not leave them alone, they claim that they will go to Hell, they shove the reading materials in their face. They are angry because no matter how much the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, something screams to them that it can't be true. That a religion that is supposed to love would condemn certain people, even going so far as petitioning and electing members to Congress to do everything possible to push laws that would make it impossible for these people to live any semblance of a normal life.

Sorry, Congress has nothing to do with theology. How you relate the two is indeed remarkable.

Seculars are angry because God has never responded to them. Their life has gone only downhill as a result of Christianity. Their converted friends are now playing the fear tactics of the church, saying that they will burn forever in the fiery pits of Hell and that they are an abomination to God.

They are angry because of the smugness of many Christians who are so convinced that they are right, that they will ignore any and all arguments against their beliefs. Although, I will say that this can be flipped around so that the same could be said of many athiests.

Are you confessing that your reasoning is so weak that you allow weak minded theologians to turn you away from God or just what are you saying here. If there are crack-pots out there, they should not affect you if you are of sound enough mind to explain to us why you do not believe in God any more.

They are angry because God's people have misinterpreted or taken their beliefs too far. They have killed because they believe that is what their God wants. People in history have faced death simply because they do not believe in their religion. God's people have oppressed minorities, limited freedom of expression, and waged wars against those who believe differently from them. It is not the religion itself. It's the way the people of that religion express their faith.

God's people have not done these things. Those were the people of Satan that did these things and Satan had them to do these things to make you angry. He wanted you to reject God for the things Satan did. It appears you took the whole hook, line and sinker of that old trick, didn't you?

They are angry that Christians insist that the Bible is the Word of God and is perfect despite several glaring mistakes that indicate that flawed people wrote the Bible and therefore it cannot be the Word of God. Once the Bible falls apart, there is nothing. They then become angry because they believe that Christianity has led them to a false hope and that everything they have told them are lies.

Do you stick to all this throughout your post or do you eventually admit things are not like what you say here?

Lastly, they believe that by abolishing all religion, that deaths caused by the followers of what deity they represent. They believe that there will be less argument when someone doesn't think they can't present certain idea because they are afraid they may somehow lose their salvation or anger their fellow believers. They believe that they are doing something that will better the world as a whole.

You need to re-read this. It makes no sense.

Obviously, when I speak of seculars, athiests, and Christians, I am speaking of ALL of them. I am speaking of some who set a stereotype for their religion or philosophy. I know of many Christians who are wonderful people who set great examples for what a follower of Christ should be. I have also met open-minded, reasonable athiests who are pleasant and willing to discuss religion without turning into hatemongers when they disagree.

As a Christian in a very dark place in her life, I hope that my perspective will help you all understand. Yes, I have lots of anger and no, I don't want to hold on to it. Prayers are appreciated. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

I wished I had read your complete post before I made any response. I and other Christians will pray for you at your request. I do suggest you post on the Christian Advice forum and Recovery forum and ask for more help and prayers over there. I will be more than happy to join you there to assist you. Just PM to tell me where you can be found. Trust me, I am really good at Christian psychology.

 

[ConureDelSol]

Your analyses is not realistic theologically. Gad gave you all enlightenment you needed at birth to be able to be an obedient \child. When you came to age, you chose to do your own things. If you are a failure as a Christian, it was your choice and not God's fault. You failed him, He did not fail you.

Sorry, Congress has nothing to do with theology. How you relate the two is indeed remarkable.

Are you confessing that your reasoning is so weak that you allow weak minded theologians to turn you away from God or just what are you saying here. If there are crack-pots out there, they should not affect you if you are of sound enough mind to explain to us why you do not believe in God any more.
God's people have not done these things. Those were the people of Satan that did these things and Satan had them to do these things to make you angry. He wanted you to reject God for the things Satan did. It appears you took the whole hook, line and sinker of that old trick, didn't you?

Do you stick to all this throughout your post or do you eventually admit things are not like what you say here?

You need to re-read this. It makes no sense.

I wished I had read your complete post before I made any response. I and other Christians will pray for you at your request. I do suggest you post on the Christian Advice forum and Recovery forum and ask for more help and prayers over there. I will be more than happy to join you there to assist you. Just PM to tell me where you can be found. Trust me, I am really good at Christian psychology.

God bless you and no offense taken. I just realized I made some big typos that kinda changes the tone of the whole point I was trying to get across. I am not attempting to argue and say that I am some sort of theologically knowledgeable person. My father put my feelings into a good perspective last night by saying that my heart and my mind are not in sync. My heart is in the right place, but my mind is having doubts, but ultimately, my heart will convince my mind of what I know deep down to be true. I wrote that post last night so now that my mind is clearer, I'll try my best to correct some of the mistakes. I didn't mean for anyone to take these thoughts as truth, but to understand that, whether they make sense or not, these are the things that your mind can make you believe to separate you from God.

 

[nubs]

Gadfly,

It seemed that she was explaining the reasoning behind why atheist might try to deconvert people from religion. She was not looking to argue with you.

Though, it was ironic in that in her explaining to you the reasons you did exactly what she said gets atheists angry at religion.

"They are angry because of the smugness of many Christians who are so convinced that they are right, that they will ignore any and all arguments against their beliefs. Although, I will say that this can be flipped around so that the same could be said of many athiests"

 

[nubs]

Because prophecy said it would happen before Christ returns. It's just a speed bump on the way to God's Kingdom. I'm not worried about it. Though I do wonder why Atheists spend so much of their time on Christian Forums making fun of and trying to destroy the faith of Christians. If they're so smart, don't they have something better to do or are they the kind of atheists that live in their parents basements and post messages between levels of World of Warcraft?

What's the humor behind your last sentence? Are you making fun of people like that? That's not very nice.

I think almost every religious text says that people will not believe in their respective religion. You don't have to be prophet to make an obvious prediction like that.

 

[Chris72]

This illustrates exactly the point the OP makes, I think. Many people complain about the "Religious Right" (sometimes justifiably so, IMO) and how they refuse to live and let live, try to force others to live by their beliefs.

I don't see how militant atheism is any different, and rhetoric like yours is an example. Live and let live is a two way street. I always find it sadly ironic that many people who complain about others telling you how to live are trying to do the same thing themselves, just in the opposite direction.

I think using words like "imaginary" and "superstition" are intentionally inflammatory and is intended to upset people. Doesn't sound like a good moral foundation to me, with OR without religion.

Fair enough. But I am not trying to tell you to believe in anything. That's the difference. I am not saying that my version of invisible beings in the sky holds more water than yours. I am saying "I dont know" where we came from, but let's use logic, evidence and reason to find the answers to what we dont understand. "I dont know" is an acceptable answer when you dont know.

It would be kind of like if the two of us heard a strange sound from the roof above us. I could say "that's just the ghost of my great-great-grandfather playing basketball". If you responded with "well, I dont know what the sound was, but it pretty definitely wasnt what you are describing", does that represent you converting me to your belief? Or would it just be calling BS on something absurd and without logical foundation?

I am questioning your beliefs of an invisible being in the sky. I am not telling you what TO believe. And I am asserting that such being is imaginary and it is based on cultural superstitions. Despite this being considered inflammatory by some, there's really no way around it. You want to have a discussion on how such a being is anything more than imaginary and how it is based on more than cultural superstitions, let's have that discussion.

Now, you could look at the example I gave above and say that "well, I would be respectful and let you have your ghost beliefs", and that might be true if such a delusion were harmless. But that is not the case with religion. It is inevitable that such beliefs will be taken to extremes and will conflict, to the death, with those who feel differently. There's no way around it. When you have convinced yourself that eternal bliss vs eternal torture rides in the balance, this will inevitably lead to fanaticism and to degradation of the lives of those who feel differently.

So again, if you have reason to suspect that your god is NOT imaginary and NOT based on superstitions, let's hear it.

 

[Chris72]

Basic logic. When a person feels comfortable and confident in their dismissal of something, they have no need to continually bash that thing and the people who follow it. I do not believe in astrology and I'm quite sure that there's nothing real going on behind astrologers. However, there is no need for me to go to message boards and insult astrologers, nor to read and write books attacking astrologers, nor to have astrologers censored or imprisoned or killed. However, when I look around I see atheists writing endless blog posts and books attacking Christians, invading Christian message boards to tell us how we're the cause of all the world's problems, and--in other countries--having Christians persecuted, censored, and killed. Such behavior makes no sense if the atheists felt confident that their beliefs were in the right. It makes sense only if they are nervous about the prospect that their beliefs are wrong.

No, that's not basic logic at all. It's just taking a fairly childish approach to dealing with someone who disagrees with you by saying "well you dont really feel that way deep inside".

Astrology doesnt lead to people flying planes into buildings, or going on shooting sprees, or to destructive wars killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people, or impede or reverse the progress of science. I dont hear anyone claiming we should teach "astrology" as a legitimate alternative to established science in public schools classrooms.

The analogy fails. I don't "deep down" believe in nonsensical tales of invisible overlords in the sky. If you have reason to suspect otherwise, again, let's hear it.

 

[Chris72]

I agree. Militant atheists exactly mirror their Christian opposite numbers.

How many wars have you seen done in the name of atheism? How many suicide bombers? How many shooting sprees? How many?

I am not talking about someone who happened to have been atheist who started a war for other reasons, I am talking about someone doing such things in the name of spreading atheism.

"Militant" atheists do not at all mirror their christian opposite numbers. there is a fundamental difference in one who asserts a baseless, ridiculous claim and one who decides not to believe it.

 

[Chris72]

So tell us this. How many major terrorist attacks have you prevented with your posts on this message board? How many major scientific discoveries have occurred because of your posts on this message board?

I didnt say any did. But having these discussions in the open is a start, rather than just ignoring a cult and letting it spread.

 

[Chris72]

Oh yeah, you mean like:

The two wars in Iraq
The Vietnam War
The Falklands War
The Korean War
The Second World War
The First World War
The Boer War

All caused by religion of course.

Now, if you would care to return to planet earth, could you name me a major war in the last 300 years which has had Christianity as any part of the cause?

Well, the second world war was caused by a mentally-unstable maniac, raised a christian, who felt he was carrying out a divine mission in the name of his "lord" and "creator". He made frequent references to this throughout his manifesto, Mein Kampf. The Vietnam and Korean wars were done to halt the spread of communism which was feared by many fundamentalist christian political leaders to represent "godlessness".

With regards to the second war in Iraq:

Bush: God told me to invade Iraq - Americas, World - The Independent

Bush Gog and Magog | Andrew Brown | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Sidney Blumenthal: The religious warrior of Abu Ghraib | World news | The Guardian

You could also point to comments by Lt Gen Boykin, the former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, framing the war in terms of christianity and it's ongoing triumph over islam:

in April 2008, at Epicenter 2008, "We as believers have been promised that we will spend an eternity with God. Last Saturday I was doing a men's conference in Fredricksburg, Virginia and I was praying during the worship service and something dawned on me and it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. And the Holy Spirit said, "this is what I want you to share with My men today", and I'm going to share it with you and this is what it is: One day, we're going to stand before the gates of Heaven. Some of us want to be able to walk up there in a white robe and we want to sing Abba Father and Amazing Grace and we want to say to the Lord, "I worshiped You." But I want you to think about this: Heres the way I want to enter the gates of Heaven. I want to come skidding in there on all fours. I want to be slipping and sliding and I want to hit the gates of heaven with a bang. And when I stand up and I stand before Christ, I want there to be blood on my knees and my elbows. I want to be covered with mud. And I want to be standing there with a ragged breast plate of righteousness. And a spear in my hand. And I want to say, "Look at me, Jesus. I've been in the battle. I've been fighting for you." Ladies and gentlemen, put your armor on and get into battle. God bless you."

Or at another conference, the "How to Take Back America Conference" he stated:
""What are you prepared to give up for America? Are you willing to pay the ultimate price?", then "there is no greater threat to America than Islam"

In a public statement he made to address the controversy, the following part had to be deleted (not at his request) by Pentagon attorneys:
"As a Christian I believe that there is a spiritual war that is continuous as articulated in the Bible. It is not confined to the war of terrorism."

You may state that such comments represent one person, but this is a 3 star general directly involved in the decisions to go to war in Iraq! And I can tell you from personal experience of seeing generals holding the bible up and shouting "THIS is MY policy! THIS is who I answer to!" to thunderous applause at commander's call in the time leading up to war.

You could also point to Donald Rumsfeld placing christian biblical quotes on top of intelligence briefs in the time leading up to Bush's decision to proceed to war in Iraq:

Bible-Quoting Defense Memos and Holy War - WSJ.com

And I think you get the picture. To suggest that fundamentalist christianity was not involved in the horrible decision to invade Iraq is insanity.

Of course, I wasn't only referring to christianity. The war in Afghanistan was a result of earlier attacks by fundamentalist muslims on innocent american people.

Maybe it is YOU who needs to come back to planet earth.

 

[Chris72]

Personally I think most of the wars in the future will be over control of natural resources, but that obviously remains to be seen.

I guess what gets me about your statement is the idea something needs to be completely abolished because some people misuse it. Heck, by that logic we could cars because some people misuse them by driving drunk.

Cars don't inevitably lead to people driving drunk. And we have ways of enforcing responsible use of cars.

 

[Chris72]

Even if the afterlife does not exist, then the very promise of an afterlife is still enough to enrich our lives. It makes funerals much more bearable, it gives us something to look forward to, and it also makes us feel as if what we do in our lives have eternal significance.

The promise of an afterlife doesnt enrich one's life, it devalues it. It means that your life is some kind of brief prelude to a later eternal afterlife rather than something that should be treasured moment by moment.

Using the thought of an eternal afterlife to make funerals more bearable is a coping mechanism.

What you are describing is a safety blanket.

Imagine if you were shopping and you found a battery guaranteed to never lose it's life. Wouldn't you pay a higher price for it than you would a battery that might last a couple of months?

Sure. But that's not the situation we have. I am describing reality, not what I would want to happen. I would love it if I could live here on earth forever and never die, but that's not the case. Or at least we have no reason to believe it is.

But the delusion you will live forever absolutely does not make you value life more. It makes you appreciate it less. It doesnt make you live forever just believing you will.

Having a shorter life doesn't make it richer. Otherwise, we'd be telling children with cancer that they're the lucky ones.

If you believe that your time on earth is just a short prelude to eternal bliss, then you're right: the earlier you die, the better. Because the sooner you die, the less chance you have to slip up and sin. By this logic, miscarriages/abortions/ectopics would be time for rejoicing.

However, that is NOT the case, and nothing is more tragic than the death of a child.

Neither this life or the next are cheapened by its everlasting value. In this life, every second counts, because it is on earth were our eternal destinies are determined. I've never met a single person who enjoys their life more than the missionary who does charity work across the globe, spreading the gospel of Jesus. And there are few people more miserable than the elderly who know their days are numbered.

The whole idea of a missionary is absurd to me. The thought that an all-powerful creator being would depend on some members of his creation to get the word out to others is insanity. I have met plenty of missionaries in my life, never noticed they were any happier than anyone else.

And using your logic, elderly people with numbered days should be overjoyed since they are close to heading to eternal bliss.

And again, if "every second counts" why would it not be a good thing to die young, with your logic? Because that would be fewer "seconds". If you dont believe in such an eternal afterlife you dont have this logical problem.

You acknowledge that those of us who believe in the afterlife can never find out we're wrong, but you still think your life is better? Please, enlighten me. How is your life so much richer now that you're "disillusioned." What are the benefits of atheism?

I am not "disillusioned" at all. Disillusioned means being disappointed when you discover things aren't as good as you thought they would be. I dont think the description of things as given by the judeo-christian bible is a better situation at all.

I have already described how life is richer when you realize it is all you got. You treasure each moment more.

As far as the benefits of atheism go, describe for me the benefits of letting children eventually discover there is no santa clause and you will have your answer. Reality is what it is, not just what you want it be.

I still haven't seen any evidence to prove that the life of an atheist is better than the life of a Christian. The only difference, assuming you're right, is you have nothing to look forward to. When your family and friends die, you know you'll never see them again. And nothing you can do will make any lasting difference, because we'll all be gone soon.

Base your beliefs on reality, not on what what is most palatable to you. And again, the difference is you value life more knowing this is all you got. You value time with your friends and family more because you never know when they could be gone forever. And anything you do can make a lasting difference in this world, that last statement you make is a non sequitur. You dont need belief in an imaginary afterlife to make a lasting impact in this world.

Even Buddhism is better than atheism. At least they believe they'll be reincarnated to live again. But what do you have?

Live in reality, not mythology. You shouldn't base your beliefs on what you think will make you the most happy. Just believing in reincarnation doesn't make it so. Personally, I would like the idea of having 72 virgins after I die, especially if I could make them SI swimsuit models (and of course my wife, who, although no longer a virgin, should be there too), but I just can't convert to islam and wish it into reality.

 

[Chris72]

The fact is that every person born is given the light of God at birth according to John, chapter one. God, being the most self evident truth in the universe, reveals himself to every man that is born. In order for man to lose eternal life, he must be misled by Satan, just like he was misled by that old Snake in the Garden. That seems to be the job of atheists and all of Satan's related philosophies. God has only one philosophy of life.

Sure thing. That's me, doing the devil's work! BOO! Did I scare you?

Youre not born with god beliefs, they are instilled in you by the culture around you. "Every man that is born" eh? So explain to me again why such beliefs are so heterogeneously distributed, divided along cultural lines and vary on time and place?

Do you think you would have been christian had you been born in Kandahar? How about in the Andes Mountains in the 14th century? How about China in the 4th century? In (what is now) Nevada in the 16th century? How about Athens in the 3rd century BCE?

If not, why not? After all, you believe such a god exists and he "reveals" himself to everyone at the time of their birth. Or could it be these are just cultural superstitions?

 

[Chris72]

The philosophical explanation for what these scientists do is found in the slick way they take half of reality, that being ontology, out of the equation of reality. God is self evidently the main factor and creator of science and the scientific method but atheist/liberals claim cosmology and experience creates ontology. The correct equation of metaphysics or reality is:
Ontology + Cosmology = Reality.

This is built on a flawed assumption that such a god exists. A more correct equation (paraphrased from Einstein):

Mystery + Fear => Religion

 

[Chris72]

You are certainly blind if your contention is that atheist have no initiated terror, wars, and great suffering on mankind. That seems to be what you are saying. I would guess that you not only hold to the philosophy of atheism but you are most likely a phenomenological liberal. Before I finish reading this thread, I will be surprised if you are politically motivated by your curse remarks.

No war has been initiated in the name of spreading atheism. Nor has there been suffering on mankind in the name of atheism. This is unsubstantiated nonsense.

Did you enjoy calling Christians asinine and morons? What a joke. Without ontology, there is no science or meaning to science. A stick or stone has never contributed to man's understanding. Since you are so smart, there is no need for me to explain how moronic your statement just was. Your reason number two is very unlearned. Evolution does not explain creation. Only ontology explains creation unless you think something comes from nothing. The equation of reality includes existence first, then cosmology. It has nothing to do with Democrats or Republicans. It has only to do with true science and ontology. Ontology + Cosmology = Reality.

I was actually referring to Gov Perry's comments as asinine and that he, personally, was a moron for making them.

Science does not depend on primitive cultural superstitions, you're mistaking it with dogma.

On this thread, the Christians are not the ones playing the role of fools, morons, or the ignorant. Until atheist can cite a reasonable premise for everything that is, a premise for science, logic and reasoning, until they can give a reason and purpose for science beyond the end of their nose, and show why anybody could be interested in their nothingness, atheist will have to play the fool's role in philosophy and science.

Whatever. Fooling yourself into believing in invisible beings in the sky isn't "science" or "philosophy". It is just giving up on asking the questions.

 

[Chris72]

Religion is not Ontology, not Christ, God was not responsible for any of the wars you point towards. Also, how about all the atheistic wars created by Hitler, the USSR, and Red China, plus all the other communist evils throughout the world? Since you base your philosophy on score keeping, do all other evils also count? Christians who are Christians base their religion on the reasoning and wisdom that comes from God, the Ontological being in the universe.

Hitler was not by any measure atheist. That is ridiculous. He was born and raised catholic and never renounced such beliefs. He repeated many times his belief that what he was doing was in the name of his "lord" and "creator" and believed himself to be carrying out a divine task.

Nazi soldiers even carried belt buckles with the words "God is with us" imprinted on them!

Dont believe me? Why dont we take HIS word for it. From Mein Kampf:

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe...Peoples that bastardize themselves, or let themselves be bastardized, sin against the will of eternal Providence."

"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will"

Sound to you like an atheist? How about this quote from Mein Kampf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

It is getting pretty desperate when you are trying to claim Hitler was atheist. If you want to claim he had perverted his catholic beliefs into something not christianity, whatever. Sounds more like a "no true scotsman" fallacy to me. But the idea that he was atheist is absolutely asinine. And, yes, I said asinine.

Nothing about the wars or deaths that sprung from the former USSR or Red China have anything whatsoever to do with atheism. Atheism is not an ideology anymore than not-playing-basketball is a sport or baldness is a hair color. It is calling out BS on superstitions. No one kills in the name of atheism. Leaders forcefully suppressing church is not an example of promoting atheism. You dont fight over lack of belief.

 

[Chris72]

Christian logically believe God has all the sociological and scientific answers. It is a matter or perception and perspective. Atheists do not realize that they have already lost the ontological argument for existence. They also think that creation is finished. Christians know that God is still creating man to finally be in God's image. Through ontology, reasoning, and logical inferences, God continues to improve those that will follow Him into a more perfect union. Jesus Christ said he was the end of creation. When God is finished creating man, man will no longer have all these flaws of character you atheist point towards as being an argument against God. You can not interrupt an artist in the middle of his painting, sculpture, and composing and say he has failed, which you do.

Not seeing how this remotely addresses my quote:

No atheists and/or scientists claims that science is omnicompetent to solve all of life's problems. That is ridiculous. Who do you know has made such a claim?

And do you not believe the bible was edited at Nicea? Is it your thought that the bible, as you see it today has been static and complete since 33 AD?

I dont think that "creation is finished", I dont think "creation" in the biblical sense ever happened! And where do you see science claiming to be omnicompetent to solve all of life's problems?

You see, just piecing together a bunch of christian buzz phrases really isnt a coherent answer.

 

[Chris72]

Since no one appears to have ever related to an athiest here, perhaps a failing Christian, like myself, can shed at least a sliver of light on why many but not all athiests appear hostile and gung-ho about their beliefs.

Seculars, like athiests, are angry. They aren't necessarily at Christianity as a philosophy and way of life. They are angry at it as a religion. They are angry at its practitioners. They are angry at the people who claim this and other religions as their own, yet are hypocritical and/or harmful to society. If we are God's children, then God is responsible for what we do. If we go out of line, they ultimately see God as the one who isn't properly teaching or watching after his children. Or in an athiest's case, the children are running rampant doing whatever they think is right and therefore, there is no God to discipline them.

Seculars are angry because evangelists will spout the same things they have heard all their life. The evangelists will not leave them alone, they claim that they will go to Hell, they shove the reading materials in their face. They are angry because no matter how much the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, something screams to them that it can't be true. That a religion that is supposed to love would condemn certain people, even going so far as petitioning and electing members to Congress to do everything possible to push laws that would make it impossible for these people to live any semblance of a normal life.

Seculars are angry because God has never responded to them. Their life has gone only downhill as a result of Christianity. Their converted friends are now playing the fear tactics of the church, saying that they will burn forever in the fiery pits of Hell and that they are an abomination to God.

They are angry because of the smugness of many Christians who are so convinced that they are right, that they will ignore any and all arguments against their beliefs. Although, I will say that this can be flipped around so that the same could be said of many athiests.

They are angry because God's people have misinterpreted or taken their beliefs too far. They have killed because they believe that is what their God wants. People in history have faced death simply because they do not believe in their religion. God's people have oppressed minorities, limited freedom of expression, and waged wars against those who believe differently from them. It is not the religion itself. It's the way the people of that religion express their faith.

They are angry that Christians insist that the Bible is the Word of God and is perfect despite several glaring mistakes that indicate that flawed people wrote the Bible and therefore it cannot be the Word of God. Once the Bible falls apart, there is nothing. They then become angry because they believe that Christianity has led them to a false hope and that everything they have told them are lies.

Lastly, they believe that by abolishing all religion, that deaths caused by the followers of what deity they represent can be prevented. They believe that there will be less arguments when someone isn't influenced by ideas they see as religious duty. They believe that they are doing something that will better the world as a whole. I know it doesn't all make sense, but understand that anger without reason is still anger and the mind will find a way to twist reality to find a cause for that anger.


Obviously, when I speak of seculars, athiests, and Christians, I am not speaking of ALL of them. I am speaking of some who set a stereotype for their religion or philosophy. I know of many Christians who are wonderful people who set great examples for what a follower of Christ should be. I have also met open-minded, reasonable athiests who are pleasant and willing to discuss religion without turning into hatemongers when they disagree.

As a Christian in a very dark place in her life, I hope that my perspective will help you all understand. Yes, I have lots of anger and no, I don't want to hold on to it. Prayers are appreciated. I apologize if I have offended anyone.

Edit: I made some BIG typos that completely screwed up what I was trying to say. I also wrote this late at night and I'm sure most of you know how that goes...

I am sorry you are going through dark times, and it bothers me that my arguing against your beliefs may take away this safety blanket of yours. but your comments are off mark, considerably so.

I am not "angry" because some "god has never responded to me"! That would be like me being angry at Darth Vader for what he did to Alderaan. Why would I be angry at a being or beings I dont believe exist?

The problems I have with religion are those that I have mentioned previously. I dont harbor any deep-seated internal anger over an imaginary being. Once we get beyond that misconception, we can have a serious discussion on the matter.

 

[Chris72]

Because prophecy said it would happen before Christ returns. It's just a speed bump on the way to God's Kingdom. I'm not worried about it. Though I do wonder why Atheists spend so much of their time on Christian Forums making fun of and trying to destroy the faith of Christians. If they're so smart, don't they have something better to do or are they the kind of atheists that live in their parents basements and post messages between levels of World of Warcraft?

You're kidding me, right? The guy with 800+ posts is talking about others being tied to their computers? Seriously?

Not that it's any of your business, but I have a career and family. But you would be amazed at how much extra free time you have when you're not wasting it having one-sided conversations with imaginary beings.

Having said that, I am done for the day.

Yours in rational thought.

 

[GrayAngel]

The promise of an afterlife doesnt enrich one's life, it devalues it. It means that your life is some kind of brief prelude to a later eternal afterlife rather than something that should be treasured moment by moment.

Using the thought of an eternal afterlife to make funerals more bearable is a coping mechanism.

What you are describing is a safety blanket.

You can repeat yourself as many times as you like, but it won't change reality (ironically). Promise of an afterlife makes life more bearable. It most certainly does NOT devalue it.

Sure. But that's not the situation we have. I am describing reality, not what I would want to happen. I would love it if I could live here on earth forever and never die, but that's not the case. Or at least we have no reason to believe it is.

But the delusion you will live forever absolutely does not make you value life more. It makes you appreciate it less. It doesnt make you live forever just believing you will.

It seems you're so swallowed up by your own ideas that you can't be swayed by any logic.

If you believe that your time on earth is just a short prelude to eternal bliss, then you're right: the earlier you die, the better. Because the sooner you die, the less chance you have to slip up and sin. By this logic, miscarriages/abortions/ectopics would be time for rejoicing.

However, that is NOT the case, and nothing is more tragic than the death of a child.

How the heck does this have anything to do with what I said?

It is your logic we're talking about here. Don't try to evade the issue. You say that eternal life devalues life because it means it will last longer. By that same reasoning, children dieing early deaths would be the ideal situation, not a tragedy. You're contradicting yourself.

The whole idea of a missionary is absurd to me. The thought that an all-powerful creator being would depend on some members of his creation to get the word out to others is insanity. I have met plenty of missionaries in my life, never noticed they were any happier than anyone else.

1. God does not depend on us. He allows us to serve Him. It's a privilege, not a duty.

2. Either you haven't met the right missionaries, or you only see what you want to see. Or, more likely, both.

And using your logic, elderly people with numbered days should be overjoyed since they are close to heading to eternal bliss.

And again, if "every second counts" why would it not be a good thing to die young, with your logic? Because that would be fewer "seconds". If you dont believe in such an eternal afterlife you dont have this logical problem.

I don't follow. "Every second counts" = short life as ideal? Nope. You've got that backwards.

If every second counts, then the elderly should be wanting to use whatever life they have left to lead others to Christ, to strengthen newer generations, and to improve the eternal rewards they have waiting for them. Yes, they have something to look forward to after death, but that doesn't cheapen the value of the physical life they have left.

I have already described how life is richer when you realize it is all you got. You treasure each moment more.

As far as the benefits of atheism go, describe for me the benefits of letting children eventually discover there is no santa clause and you will have your answer. Reality is what it is, not just what you want it be.

You still haven't answered my question. You just keep repeating yourself, but your logic is lacking.

"Realizing" that this life is all you've got does not make it any richer. You certainly don't treasure it more, when you know that nothing you can do has any lasting value.

How does "knowing" this is the only life you've got make you feel when someone close to you dies, and you know they're lost forever? Would you tell a father he is better off burying his son if he doesn't have that silly idea of an afterlife in his head?

Base your beliefs on reality, not on what what is most palatable to you. And again, the difference is you value life more knowing this is all you got. You value time with your friends and family more because you never know when they could be gone forever. And anything you do can make a lasting difference in this world, that last statement you make is a non sequitur. You dont need belief in an imaginary afterlife to make a lasting impact in this world.

What is most "palatable" is what is most enjoyable. You've talked yourself into a corner again. If it's more palatable to believe in an afterlife, then that means my life is more enjoyable than if I went with the alternative.

Seeing all the holes in your logic so far, it's very rich you accusing me of a non sequitur. I used nothing of the sort. Tell me how your life could have any lasting value, knowing you and everyone you know will die, and even this planet will eventually fade away.

Live in reality, not mythology. You shouldn't base your beliefs on what you think will make you the most happy. Just believing in reincarnation doesn't make it so. Personally, I would like the idea of having 72 virgins after I die, especially if I could make them SI swimsuit models (and of course my wife, who, although no longer a virgin, should be there too), but I just can't convert to islam and wish it into reality.

So it's bad to go with the more happy option? And here I thought you believed a better life = a happier life. If that's not so, then you really have nothing to offer.

Why do you keep talking about "reality?" What does it matter what the reality of the afterlife is? As you've already pointed out, if you're right and there is no afterlife, then we will never have the chance to be disappointed. What matters, then, is the quality of this life. Can you tell me why it is better to believe in your version of "reality" instead of my childish fairy tale?

From what you've presented so far, I have all the benefits of being an atheist, plus more. I have the benefit of knowing this is the only life I have on this earth, and I cherish every minute of it. But I also have the promise that what I do with it will actually make a difference, because I will reap rewards based on what I've done, and I can lead others with me into a better afterlife.