Why do you think arminians teach falsehoods?

[DD2008]

#1 God wants everyone to find it.
#2 No one within themselves could find it on their own, God must lead us.
#3 We must follow

1. The bible reveals that some will indeed go to hell, therefore it is obvious that God who is soverign and has the power to decree did not decree that everyone will go to heaven.

2. Regeneration preceeds faith. God doesn't just lead us, he saves us. Fallen man is dead in his sins and needs to be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

3. Believers follow willingly in gratitude for their salvation.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

1. The bible reveals that some will indeed go to hell, therefore it is obvious that God who is soverign and has the power to decree did not decree that everyone will go to heaven.

Wrong, this is the view of an unsaved unrepentant murderer. Why would you accept it as truth.

2. Regeneration preceeds faith. God doesn't just lead us, he saves us. Fallen man is dead in his sins and needs to be born again to enter the kingdom of God.

Wrong again, Faith comes first

3. Believers follow willingly in gratitude for their salvation.

True, a true believer follows Christ willingly out of gratitude of their salvation.

 

[DD2008]

...

Wrong, this is the view of an unsaved unrepentant murderer. Why would you accept it as truth.

Actually it is my view that I received by reading scripture, and I am saved, have repented, repent whenever I am aware of sin, and have never murdered anyone. Any other people who have ever agreed with this view simply read the same scriptures I did.

Wrong again, Faith comes first

It cannot come first if the scriptures are true. If it did it would be a work by which you earned your way to heaven based on the merits of a decision you made in favor of Christ. Contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9

True, a true believer follows Christ willingly out of gratitude of their salvation.

We agree on this point.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Actually it is my view that I received by reading scripture, and I am saved, have repented, repent whenever I am aware of sin, and have never murdered anyone. Any other people who have ever agreed with this view simply read the same scriptures I did.



It cannot come first if the scriptures are true. If it did it would be a work by which you earned your way to heaven based on the merits of a decision you made in favor of Christ. Contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9



We agree on this point.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If this is your proof that regeneration comes before faith then it proves that you biblical view is skewed and definitely not to be trusted.

 

[ArcticFox]

Fine I will enter the discussion to please you, you alone.

You should not discuss things just to please me. You should want to do it, or want to learn something from it, or want to teach others something.

First of all, let's clarify....what "falsehoods" do Arminians teach and why are Calvinists better people?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I imagined that the OP was referring to the basic teaching that separates, essentially, Arminians and Calvinists: the belief concerning salvation in the role of men and God in that salvation.

Arminians, basically, believe that Christ died to cover the sins of everyone, and that our salvation is dependent upon us, of our own free will and choosing, coming to Christ. Some will put a unique spin on that with different phrases and whatnot, and that's their choice to clarify their personal beliefs, but essentially, Arminians believe that Christ died to give people the opportunity to come to him of their own free will.

Calvinists, essentially, believe that we are tainted to the core with sin, and that we are unable to come to God on our own, but that we need him to draw us in to see the beauty of Christ. Calvinists believe that we do not have a "free will" in the fullest sense, and that our will is bound either by sin or by the grace of God. If we are left in sin, to our own devices, we would never choose God because we are incapable of doing so, we are slaves to sin and dead in sin. Therefore, we need God to choose us, to draw us to himself. At this point, he *will* enlighten our hearts. He does not give us a choice, A or B, but he of his will draws us, illuminates our mind to see the things of the Spirit, and we see the glory and beauty of Christ and come to accept him as our savior and Lord.

The difference is critical, Calvinists believe that Arminians are taking glory for themselves and putting too much sovereignty into man's hand, and Arminians believe that Calvinists are restricting God's grace and making him out to be some arbitrary tyrant who unfairly condemns some to hell without a chance at life.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Yes I do deny it. Calvinist believe that Once you are saved/ or have been regenerated, then you cannot loose your salvation, so they are indeed prone to send, not concerning themselve with making Christ Lord. However Arminians believe that one must live a holy life doing the will of the Father remaining on the narrow rode to receive eternal life. Therefore agree or disagree with what Arminians teach that are not prone to sin, seeing as they believe that a believer must walk in the Spirit baring the fruit of holiness, righteousness, and purity.

What you have wrote is based on merit, not grace.

 

[DD2008]

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If this is your proof that regeneration comes before faith then it proves that you biblical view is skewed and definitely not to be trusted.

What is it about "by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves it is a gift of God." that makes you think it should read-- By faith you are saved through grace and not of God but of yourselves faith is a gift of man to God?

Pleas read the first 10 verses of Ephesians Chapter 2:

Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[sunlover1]

You should not discuss things just to please me. You should want to do it, or want to learn something from it, or want to teach others something.

He just can't do anything right can he?

 

[sunlover1]

Such as man centered salvation etc..

If you do?

Maybe it's best not to call yourself an "Arminian" or a "Calvinist"
or anything else. I realise that labels have their purpose and
need, but when it comes to God..Our identity is in Christ.
That should suffice?

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisionsb among
you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the
same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren,
by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions
among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul;
and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was
Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51665512#_ftn2
b divisions: Gr. schisms

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51665512#_ftnref2

 

[ArcticFox]

Maybe it's best not to call yourself an "Arminian" or a "Calvinist"
or anything else. I realise that labels have their purpose and
need, but when it comes to God..Our identity is in Christ.
That should suffice?

I agree.

Unfortunately, the labels are useful ways that people are able to separate themselves and feel part of an "in-group," and thus can easily identify their "enemies."

We love to be divided.

 

[sunlover1]

I agree.

Unfortunately, the labels are useful ways that people are able to separate themselves and feel part of an "in-group," and thus can easily identify their "enemies."

We love to be divided.

Why do you think that is?

 

[Mankin]

This depends on your definition of "man-centered." IMO, the arminian view of salvation is that God provides the means to salvation but the human must first accept those means.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

This depends on your definition of "man-centered." IMO, the arminian view of salvation is that God provides the means to salvation but the human must first accept those means.

I prefer the word RESPOND to ACCEPT, but I agree with this view.

Why are you a democrat?

 

[MamaZ]

We can only respond if we are quickened by God to do so. He is a heart changer and the believers heart must be circumcised by the Holy Spirit. Men do not and never have had a say in their birth natural or Spiritual. If God wants to rebirth a man He will. We are just the product of His rebirthing power just as we are in the natural.. This is why Jesus says if you do not even understand the natrual how can you ever understand the spiritual. Not a single one of us today had anything to do with our natural births.. We just were born. Same goes with the Spiritual. Not a single one of us have anything to do with our Spiritual birth. We are just born of the Spirit of God. And not one man can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven without this new birth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If this is your proof that regeneration comes before faith then it proves that you biblical view is skewed and definitely not to be trusted.

What is it about "by grace are ye saved through faith and not of yourselves it is a gift of God." that makes you think it should read-- By faith you are saved through grace and not of God but of yourselves faith is a gift of man to God?

Like I said if this is your proof they we are regenerated before we have faith then nothing else you say can be trusted.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Like I said if this is your proof they we are regenerated before we have faith then nothing else you say can be trusted.

Faith is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Understanding and accepting faith is one thing and 'actual conversion by the conviction of the Holy Spirit' is another. My own faith is not self-effort or anything I can do for God but rather from within that my faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit by the conviction to submit into action. The outcome is not based on my faith because I already received faith when I was convicted to receive God's grace. I am legally deaf so I know "hearing" is not the same as "hear". 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words (hearing the gospel), but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake." The Holy Spirit convicts a sinner to be saved when they "hear" the gospel. That's how I understand Romans 10:17 when Paul wrote, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Looking at Romans 10:17 says in the original Greek, "Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ." Faith comes by hearing a speech about Christ, not a subjective analysis about what's going on in yourself.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

So you are agreeing that faith comes before regeneration?

 

[JimfromOhio]

So you are agreeing that faith comes before regeneration?

We were convicted first and then faith came without any efforts from our part. Grace operates without the help of our faith because grace is much more powerful than our faith. God gives us, one by one, the gifts and the graces of the Holy Spirit sufficiently. No doctrine is more important to evangelical theology than the doctrine of justification by faith alone—the Reformation principle of sola fide. Salvation spiritually speaking faith is not a "choice" but rather a free gift of God's grace created by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the means of grace. Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.” Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."

 

[onwingsaseagles]

So you are agreeing that faith comes before regeneration?

 

[JimfromOhio]

So you are agreeing that faith comes before regeneration?

Come about the same time.