Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

[The Barbarian]

Now, here comes the good part that I dont tell people until they engage me with my question..
I WAS able to get my Question (Asking for a plausible chronological evolutionary order for Mans 10 VITAL organs "answered" by Prof. Dr. Andreas Schmidt-Rhaesa, He is the guy who LITERALLY wrote the book "evolution of organ systems"

I just showed you that integument and nervous systems were the first two to evolved. And then you gave up.

https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Organ-Systems-Andreas-Schmidt-Rhaesa/dp/0198566697

He is a professor / scientist / and a world renown expert on the "Evolution of Organs" He wrote the book! Do you think that HE is "qualified" to answer my question?.. LOL

He says:
Nature volume 452, pages745–749(2008)
Broad phylogenomic sampling improves resolution of the animal tree of life
...Analysed in combination with existing sequences, our data reinforce several previously identified clades that split deeply in the animal tree (including Protostomia, Ecdysozoa and Lophotrochozoa), unambiguously resolve multiple long-standing issues for which there was strong conflicting support in earlier studies with less data (such as velvet worms rather than tardigrades as the sister group of arthropods5), and provide molecular support for the monophyly of molluscs, a group long recognized by morphologists. In addition, we find strong support for several new hypotheses. These include a clade that unites annelids (including sipunculans and echiurans) with nemerteans, phoronids and brachiopods, molluscs as sister to that assemblage, and the placement of ctenophores as the earliest diverging extant multicellular animals. A single origin of spiral cleavage (with subsequent losses) is inferred from well-supported nodes. Many relationships between a stable subset of taxa find strong support, and a diminishing number of lineages remain recalcitrant to placement on the tree.

And he seems to agree with my point that integument and nervous system evolved first:
The Evolution of Organ Systems

Now, keep in mind.. He did give an "answer"

Not one, but several. But as you see, his answer and mine agree (although he has a qualification about muscles and nervous systems).

If you had actually read his book you'd have realized that. You see what happens when you don't read the original article?

but if you have a deep emotional attachment to "evolution" due to philosophical reasons you DONT want to know his answer (Hint : Not good for TOE) Your choice..

In fact, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa repeatedly confirms the fact of evolution, not just in the book someone told you about, but in numerous other papers and books.


and... here, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa is cited for his finding that musculature of bilaterans (like us) did not originate with cnidarians, as I told you:

Front. Cell Dev. Biol., 23 January 2017
Independent evolution of striated muscles in cnidarians and bilaterians
Striated muscles are present in bilaterian animals (for example, vertebrates, insects and annelids) and some non-bilaterian eumetazoans (that is, cnidarians and ctenophores). The considerable ultrastructural similarity of striated muscles between these animal groups is thought to reflect a common evolutionary origin1,2. Here we show that a muscle protein core set, including a type II myosin heavy chain (MyHC) motor protein characteristic of striated muscles in vertebrates, was already present in unicellular organisms before the origin of multicellular animals. Furthermore, ‘striated muscle’ and ‘non-muscle’ myhc orthologues are expressed differentially in two sponges, compatible with a functional diversification before the origin of true muscles and the subsequent use of striated muscle MyHC in fast-contracting smooth and striated muscle. Cnidarians and ctenophores possess striated muscle myhc orthologues but lack crucial components of bilaterian striated muscles, such as genes that code for titin and the troponin complex, suggesting the convergent evolution of striated muscles. Consistently, jellyfish orthologues of a shared set of bilaterian Z-disc proteins are not associated with striated muscles, but are instead expressed elsewhere or ubiquitously. The independent evolution of eumetazoan striated muscles through the addition of new proteins to a pre-existing, ancestral contractile apparatus may serve as a model for the evolution of complex animal cell types.

From The Evolution of Organ Systems link you found:

"Systematics has developed rapidly during the past two decades. A multitude of new methods and contributions from a diversity of biological fields including molecular genetics and developmental biology have provided a wealth of phylogenetic hypotheses, some confirming traditional views others contradicting them. Despite such inconsistencies, it is now possible to recognize robust regions of a 'tree of life' and also to identify problematic areas which have yet to be resolved. This is the first book to apply the current state of phylogeny to an evolutionary interpretation of animal organ systems and body architecture, providing alternative theories in those cases of continuing controversy.

Organs do not appear suddenly during evolution; instead they are composed of far simpler structures. In some cases it is even possible to trace particular molecules or physiological pathways as far back as pre-animal history. What emerges is a fascinating picture, showing how animals have combined ancestral and new elements in novel ways to form constantly changing responses to environmental requirements." (my emphasis)

And again, this is what I told you.

And this is where most YE creationist end this conversation, because they really don't want to hear anything that might cause them to doubt their new doctrine of YE creationism because, It has nothing to do with Science and everything to do with their modern revision of scripture.

 

[The Barbarian]

You never said 3 billion years. You even showed us the post, and it wasn't there. I think you just got excited and forgot what you wrote, and then didn't read very carefully. I'll assume you didn't intent to lie about it. I suppose it's possible that you thought they were precisely the same thing, but given how wrong that is, I think it's more likely you were just careless.

And getting angry and calling names when you get caught, does tend to make people wonder. Avoid that kind of thing, hear?

So what do you say we stop wondering about your intentions and leave off fretting about the character of the Evil Barbarian© and try to stay focused on the subject? You just learned that integument and nervous system evolved before the other organs you listed. Unless you have other questions about this, shall we go on?

ME "Who owned the Blue House on the corner"?

No.
YOU:" I said billions of years"

ME: "No, you didn't."

(We check the post, and it turns out that you didn't. )

YOU Ignore..

And I didn't call you a liar, as you are now claiming. I said that I thought you were merely excited and confused, and did not intend to lie. Would you mind being more careful in the future?

GEOLOGIC COLUMN? By JT

Speaking of the non existent "Geologic Column"

They misled you about that, too:

We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota
The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet

Are we to assume that "For millions of years" there was a light dusting of limestone that laid out perfectly with no erosion marks only to ABRUPTLY change to light dusting of sandstone all laid out perfectly even, Then a continuous dusting of coal for a few million years perfectly even on top and bottom then BACK to limestone for a few million then ABRUPTLY change to a light Shale rainfall for MOYs and THEN Arkose for a few million THEN Siltstone.. All Perfectly laid out in order...

See above. You've been very badly misled.

Where did all of this material come from?? Outer Space??

Sedimentation and vulcanism.

Are whales and trees not going to rot completely over the "millions of years" while the sediments form over them? (Polystrate Fossils)

You were misled there, too. Not far from my home are trees that were drowned when a dam was built. They are being buried a little at a time by sediment, and if they aren't dug up somehow, they will eventually be polystrate fossils. You see, rates of sedimentation differ. Some, like the Cliffs of Dover, take millions of years. Others, like those trees, take a few decades. Others are even faster. As I said, you're going to be seeing a lot of things for the first time, here.

 

[The Barbarian]

(1) What controlled the digestive enzymes of our "Skin and nerves" Remember the Brain hasn't "Evolved" yet!

Digestive enzymes preceded multicellular organisms. I thought you knew. But enzymes are not organs.

(2) How did your mythical "Skin and nerves" EAT?

Cnidarians digest their food using a primitive digestive system that contains no organs--they have a mouth (which also serves as the anus) and a gastrovascular cavity.
Cnidaria Digestive System | Study.com

As the Mouth, teeth, throat, hasn't evolved yet?

As I told you, cnidarians aren't very smart, so they continue to eat, completely unaware that you've decreed that they must have a mouth, teeth, and throat in order to do so.

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

You never said 3 billion years. You even showed us the post, and it wasn't there. I think you just got excited and forgot what you wrote, and then didn't read very carefully. I'll assume you didn't intent to lie about it. I suppose it's possible that you thought they were precisely the same thing, but given how wrong that is, I think it's more likely you were just careless.

And getting angry and calling names when you get caught, does tend to make people wonder. Avoid that kind of thing, hear?

So what do you say we stop wondering about your intentions and leave off fretting about the character of the Evil Barbarian© and try to stay focused on the subject? You just learned that integument and nervous system evolved before the other organs you listed. Unless you have other questions about this, shall we go on?



No.
YOU:" I said billions of years"

ME: "No, you didn't."

(We check the post, and it turns out that you didn't. )

YOU Ignore..

And I didn't call you a liar, as you are now claiming. I said that I thought you were merely excited and confused, and did not intend to lie. Would you mind being more careful in the future?



They misled you about that, too:

We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota
The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet



See above. You've been very badly misled.



Sedimentation and vulcanism.



You were misled there, too. Not far from my home are trees that were drowned when a dam was built. They are being buried a little at a time by sediment, and if they aren't dug up somehow, they will eventually be polystrate fossils. You see, rates of sedimentation differ. Some, like the Cliffs of Dover, take millions of years. Others, like those trees, take a few decades. Others are even faster. As I said, you're going to be seeing a lot of things for the first time, here.

"You never said 3 billion years"

I never CLAIMED to say 3 billion years.. You said that I wanted to know a plausible order for the 10 VITAL organs in HUMANS . I said NOPE I wanted to know a plausible evolutionary order for the 10 VITAL organs from Microbe to Microbiologist, You DENIED that I asked for that, You doubled down on the lie and then when you were exposed for your lie, instead of apologizing like an honest person, you tried to save face by bringing up a complete non sequitur/red herring as if people cant see for themselves what you are doing... No one is fooled.. That's OK. I expect nothing less from an Oval-Earther, If they are willing to call God the Father and his Son liars about His creation, nothing is iff the table.. It wouldnt surprise me if you supported abortion either.. 99% of Evolutionists are infanticidal people as well....

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

As I said, you're going to be seeing a lot of things f

When should I be expecting that to happen? Anytime soon? So far all I've seen is standard hand waving, bumper stickers, talking points, and logical fallacies galore.. All of which I have already seen hundreds of times before.. You still dont know who you are talking to do you.. Lol

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

Digestive enzymes preceded multicellular organisms. I thought you knew. But enzymes are not organs.


"Cnidarians digest their food using a primitive digestive system that contains no organs--they have a mouth (which also serves as the anus) and a gastrovascular cavity"

So you (Typically and Predictably) point out a SIMPLER yet STILL A COMPLETE, IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX CREATURE to make your case!!!.. LOL.. The Cnidarian couldnt have evolved slowly EITHER!! Way too many complex parts that must all be working in tandem, You are like the guy who tells people that the ocean occasionally spits out Gold Rolex Watches (theoretically possible) because he finds a cheap Timex ON THE BEACH!!!

THE CNIDARIANS ARE INCREDIBLY COMPLEX!!!!
WHATS NEXT? NEMATODES? LUNGFISH? YOU THINK THIS IS MY FIRST RODEO?? you still dont get it do you....

Cnidarians are diploblasts, meaning that they develop from two basic germ (cell) layers: an ectoderm, or outer layer, and an endoderm, or inner layer. Between the ectoderm, which contains the cnidocysts, and the endoderm there is a non-cellular substance called the mesoglea. The mesoglea is a gelatinous matrix that contains fibers made up of the protein collagen. There are usually cells loosely scattered throughout the mesoglea but not in a defined layer. The basic body plan of all cnidarians consists of the two cell layers enclosing a digestive cavity. The cnidarian digestive cavity, called the coelenteron, has a single mouth opening through which food/prey enters and waste is expelled. The coelenteron is considered a gastrovascular cavity because it is where both digestion and gas exchange between the organism's cells and water in the cavity take place. This cavity can be either one large chamber, several smaller chambers, or a branched network of canals. The mouth opening is usually surrounded by tentacles. Cnidarians are carnivorous animals. They use cnidocytes on the surface of their tentacles to release nematocysts for attacking and capturing prey. The immobilized prey can then be brought into the coelenteron through the mouth. Medusae also have oral “arms” that assist in capturing and ingesting prey. Digestion of prey takes place extracellularly within the coelenteron. The endodermal lining of the coelenteron, called the gastrodermis, absorbs nutrients derived from the digestive process.

In addition to a primitive digestive cavity, cnidarians have a decentralized nervous system, muscle tissue, reproductive tissues, and a hydrostatic skeleton. A hydrostatic skeleton is maintained by the internal pressure of fluids within the organism. This hydrostatic pressure allows the animals to hold their shape without bones or solid skeletal elements. The force of muscle contractions against the hydrostatic pressure allows the organism to move from place to place.

The primitive nervous system of cnidarians is non-centralized and consists of a network of nerve cells, called a nerve net, spanning the body wall. The nerve net is capable of sensing touch. There is no circulatory or respiratory system within cnidarians. As mentioned above, the coelenteron functions as vascular tissue, and both circulation and respiration occur by simple diffusion between the cells and the water within and surrounding the animal. Reproductive tissues are usually located in the mesoglea of polyps or in the gastric cavity of medusae.

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

You never said 3 billion years. You even showed us the post, and it wasn't there. I think you just got excited and forgot what you wrote, and then didn't read very carefully. I'll assume you didn't intent to lie about it. I suppose it's possible that you thought they were precisely the same thing, but given how wrong that is, I think it's more likely you were just careless.

And getting angry and calling names when you get caught, does tend to make people wonder. Avoid that kind of thing, hear?

So what do you say we stop wondering about your intentions and leave off fretting about the character of the Evil Barbarian© and try to stay focused on the subject? You just learned that integument and nervous system evolved before the other organs you listed. Unless you have other questions about this, shall we go on?



No.
YOU:" I said billions of years"

ME: "No, you didn't."

(We check the post, and it turns out that you didn't. )

YOU Ignore..

And I didn't call you a liar, as you are now claiming. I said that I thought you were merely excited and confused, and did not intend to lie. Would you mind being more careful in the future?



They misled you about that, too:

We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota
The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet



See above. You've been very badly misled.



Sedimentation and vulcanism.



You were misled there, too. Not far from my home are trees that were drowned when a dam was built. They are being buried a little at a time by sediment, and if they aren't dug up somehow, they will eventually be polystrate fossils. You see, rates of sedimentation differ. Some, like the Cliffs of Dover, take millions of years. Others, like those trees, take a few decades. Others are even faster. As I said, you're going to be seeing a lot of things for the first time, here.

"We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota"

MORE SPECIAL PLEADING..

You really desperately WANT there to be such a thing as a Geologic Column, So you post this HOPING I wont know my stuff and you can fool me.... Sorry sport, not in THIS classroom...

The ND column as textbook strata intact as depicted in the charts in fairy tale books is a fairy tale to try to bolster the fairy tale.
It is debunked here.

http://creationwiki.org/Geological_column
-and here;
Quote:
http://creationwiki.org/Geological_c...orth_Dakota

The conclusion that they have a complete geologic column in this area is based on the assumption of the existence of the geologic column. This is circular reasoning.
If that is not enough there is a place where a rock layer labeled Devonian can be found between rock layers labeled Carboniferous. Devonian is alleged to be older than Carboniferous, but this would suggest that they are really the same age.
Curiously while the theoretical column thickness is 100 miles, the maximum thickness of sediment found any place is only 16 miles. That means that at any given location at least 84% of the geologic column is missing.


Read more: The Geologic Column as Taught Is An Evolutionary Myth, Existing Only In Textbooks. (worship, Christian) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 9 - City-Data Forum

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

You never said 3 billion years. You even showed us the post, and it wasn't there. I think you just got excited and forgot what you wrote, and then didn't read very carefully. I'll assume you didn't intent to lie about it. I suppose it's possible that you thought they were precisely the same thing, but given how wrong that is, I think it's more likely you were just careless.

And getting angry and calling names when you get caught, does tend to make people wonder. Avoid that kind of thing, hear?

So what do you say we stop wondering about your intentions and leave off fretting about the character of the Evil Barbarian© and try to stay focused on the subject? You just learned that integument and nervous system evolved before the other organs you listed. Unless you have other questions about this, shall we go on?



No.
YOU:" I said billions of years"

ME: "No, you didn't."

(We check the post, and it turns out that you didn't. )

YOU Ignore..

And I didn't call you a liar, as you are now claiming. I said that I thought you were merely excited and confused, and did not intend to lie. Would you mind being more careful in the future?



They misled you about that, too:

We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota
The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota

The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet



See above. You've been very badly misled.



Sedimentation and vulcanism.



You were misled there, too. Not far from my home are trees that were drowned when a dam was built. They are being buried a little at a time by sediment, and if they aren't dug up somehow, they will eventually be polystrate fossils. You see, rates of sedimentation differ. Some, like the Cliffs of Dover, take millions of years. Others, like those trees, take a few decades. Others are even faster. As I said, you're going to be seeing a lot of things for the first time, here.

"We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota"

MORE SPECIAL PLEADING..

You really desperately WANT there to be such a thing as a Geologic Column, So you post this HOPING I wont know my stuff and you can fool me.... Sorry sport, not in THIS classroom...

The ND column as textbook strata intact as depicted in the charts in fairy tale books is a fairy tale to try to bolster the fairy tale.
It is debunked here.

http://creationwiki.org/Geological_column
-and here;
Quote:
http://creationwiki.org/Geological_c...orth_Dakota

The conclusion that they have a complete geologic column in this area is based on the assumption of the existence of the geologic column. This is circular reasoning.
If that is not enough there is a place where a rock layer labeled Devonian can be found between rock layers labeled Carboniferous. Devonian is alleged to be older than Carboniferous, but this would suggest that they are really the same age.
Curiously while the theoretical column thickness is 100 miles, the maximum thickness of sediment found any place is only 16 miles. That means that at any given location at least 84% of the geologic column is missing.


Read more: The Geologic Column as Taught Is An Evolutionary Myth, Existing Only In Textbooks. (worship, Christian) - Religion and Spirituality -Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 9 - City-Data Forum

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

I just showed you that integument and nervous systems were the first two to evolved. And then you gave up.


He says:
Nature volume 452, pages745–749(2008)
Broad phylogenomic sampling improves resolution of the animal tree of life
...Analysed in combination with existing sequences, our data reinforce several previously identified clades that split deeply in the animal tree (including Protostomia, Ecdysozoa and Lophotrochozoa), unambiguously resolve multiple long-standing issues for which there was strong conflicting support in earlier studies with less data (such as velvet worms rather than tardigrades as the sister group of arthropods5), and provide molecular support for the monophyly of molluscs, a group long recognized by morphologists. In addition, we find strong support for several new hypotheses. These include a clade that unites annelids (including sipunculans and echiurans) with nemerteans, phoronids and brachiopods, molluscs as sister to that assemblage, and the placement of ctenophores as the earliest diverging extant multicellular animals. A single origin of spiral cleavage (with subsequent losses) is inferred from well-supported nodes. Many relationships between a stable subset of taxa find strong support, and a diminishing number of lineages remain recalcitrant to placement on the tree.

And he seems to agree with my point that integument and nervous system evolved first:
The Evolution of Organ Systems



Not one, but several. But as you see, his answer and mine agree (although he has a qualification about muscles and nervous systems).

If you had actually read his book you'd have realized that. You see what happens when you don't read the original article?



In fact, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa repeatedly confirms the fact of evolution, not just in the book someone told you about, but in numerous other papers and books.


and... here, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa is cited for his finding that musculature of bilaterans (like us) did not originate with cnidarians, as I told you:

Front. Cell Dev. Biol., 23 January 2017
Independent evolution of striated muscles in cnidarians and bilaterians
Striated muscles are present in bilaterian animals (for example, vertebrates, insects and annelids) and some non-bilaterian eumetazoans (that is, cnidarians and ctenophores). The considerable ultrastructural similarity of striated muscles between these animal groups is thought to reflect a common evolutionary origin1,2. Here we show that a muscle protein core set, including a type II myosin heavy chain (MyHC) motor protein characteristic of striated muscles in vertebrates, was already present in unicellular organisms before the origin of multicellular animals. Furthermore, ‘striated muscle’ and ‘non-muscle’ myhc orthologues are expressed differentially in two sponges, compatible with a functional diversification before the origin of true muscles and the subsequent use of striated muscle MyHC in fast-contracting smooth and striated muscle. Cnidarians and ctenophores possess striated muscle myhc orthologues but lack crucial components of bilaterian striated muscles, such as genes that code for titin and the troponin complex, suggesting the convergent evolution of striated muscles. Consistently, jellyfish orthologues of a shared set of bilaterian Z-disc proteins are not associated with striated muscles, but are instead expressed elsewhere or ubiquitously. The independent evolution of eumetazoan striated muscles through the addition of new proteins to a pre-existing, ancestral contractile apparatus may serve as a model for the evolution of complex animal cell types.

From The Evolution of Organ Systems link you found:

"Systematics has developed rapidly during the past two decades. A multitude of new methods and contributions from a diversity of biological fields including molecular genetics and developmental biology have provided a wealth of phylogenetic hypotheses, some confirming traditional views others contradicting them. Despite such inconsistencies, it is now possible to recognize robust regions of a 'tree of life' and also to identify problematic areas which have yet to be resolved. This is the first book to apply the current state of phylogeny to an evolutionary interpretation of animal organ systems and body architecture, providing alternative theories in those cases of continuing controversy.

Organs do not appear suddenly during evolution; instead they are composed of far simpler structures. In some cases it is even possible to trace particular molecules or physiological pathways as far back as pre-animal history. What emerges is a fascinating picture, showing how animals have combined ancestral and new elements in novel ways to form constantly changing responses to environmental requirements." (my emphasis)

And again, this is what I told you.

And this is where most YE creationist end this conversation, because they really don't want to hear anything that might cause them to doubt their new doctrine of YE creationism because, It has nothing to do with Science and everything to do with their modern revision of scripture.

"In fact, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa repeatedly confirms the fact of evolution,"

NOPE, He ASSERTS it to be true.. ZERO scientific evidence is ever provided.. I am glad I was able to clear up your apparent confusion on this matter...

NOW

If you think that Dr. Schmidt Rhaesa provided a plausible chronological order for the 10 VITAL organs from Microbe to microbiologist PLEASE PRESENT IT...Otherwise you have been exposed (Again) as a Deceptive Dodger.....

Evolutionism is the planet of the Apes religion of Metaphysical Naturalism where over the course of "500 million years" while SOME comb jellyfish evolved into humans and OTHER comb jellyfish evolved into comb jellyfish!!!! LOL.. Seem like a fairytale? No worries, they just call it "Living fossils" And if you don't swallow their madness you don't understand "Science"... Hanaha

"Unfortunately many scientists and non-scientists have made Evolution into a religion, something to be defended against infidels. In my experience, many students of biology – professors and textbook writers included – have been so carried away with the arguments for Evolution that they neglect to question it. They preach it … College students, having gone through such a closed system of education, themselves become teachers, entering high schools to continue the process, using textbooks written by former classmates or professors. High standards of scholarship and teaching break down. Propaganda and the pursuit of power replace the pursuit knowledge. Education becomes a fraud.” (George Kocan)

"Darwin made it possible to be an intelectually fulfilled Atheist" Richard Dawkins

 

[The Barbarian]

"In fact, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa repeatedly confirms the fact of evolution,"

NOPE, He ASSERTS it to be true.. ZERO scientific evidence is ever provided..

This is how I know you never read his book. For example, he demonstrates that striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:
The Evolution of Organ Systems

Pages 76-77

You were telling me how his opinions were going to be difficult for anyone who accepts the fact of evolution, and yet here he is, documenting the fact of evolution in the very book you cited. You never read it; you just heard about it from someone who wasn't honest with you.

I am glad I was able to clear up your obvious misunderstanding on this matter.

 

[The Barbarian]

"We will now examine the strata that form the entire geological column which is found in North Dakota.
The Geologic Column in North Dakota"
The W. H. Hunt Trust Estate Larson #1 will in Section 10 Township 148 N Range 101 W was drilled to 15,064 feet deep. This well was drilled just west of the outcrop of the Golden Valley formation and begins in the Tertiary Fort Union Formation. The various horizons described above were encountered at the following depths (Fm=formation; Grp=Group; Lm=Limestone):
Tertiary Ft. Union Fm ..........................100 feet
Cretaceous Greenhorn Fm .......................4910 feet
Cretaceous Mowry Fm........................... 5370 feet
Cretaceous Inyan Kara Fm.......................5790 feet
Jurassic Rierdon Fm............................6690 feet
Triassic Spearfish Fm..........................7325 feet
Permian Opeche Fm..............................7740 feet
Pennsylvanian Amsden Fm........................7990 feet
Pennsylvanian Tyler Fm.........................8245 feet
Mississippian Otter Fm.........................8440 feet
Mississippian Kibbey Lm........................8780 feet
Mississippian Charles Fm.......................8945 feet
Mississippian Mission Canyon Fm................9775 feet
Mississippian Lodgepole Fm....................10255 feet
Devonian Bakken Fm............................11085 feet
Devonian Birdbear Fm..........................11340 feet
Devonian Duperow Fm...........................11422 feet
Devonian Souris River Fm......................11832 feet
Devonian Dawson Bay Fm........................12089 feet
Devonian Prairie Fm...........................12180 feet
Devonian Winnipegosis Grp.....................12310 feet
Silurian Interlake Fm.........................12539 feet
Ordovician Stonewall Fm.......................13250 feet
Ordovician Red River Dolomite.................13630 feet
Ordovician Winnipeg Grp.......................14210 feet
Ordovician Black Island Fm....................14355 feet
Cambrian Deadwood Fm..........................14445 feet
Precambrian...................................14945 feet

MORE SPECIAL PLEADING..

It's just the findings of the geological survey, which did the investigation. It's a remarkable thing to find any place on Earth that retains rock from all geological periods, but there are a few places where it exists. North Dakota is one of them.

You really desperately need to deny there to be such a thing as a Geologic Column, but you lack any way to refute the data of the survey. So you simply retreat to "they are lying."

But the evidence remains. This goes back to what I showed you before; you have very little knowledge of these things, and so you constantly run into walls. This is just one of many.

 

[The Barbarian]

Cnidarians digest their food using a primitive digestive system that contains no organs--they have a mouth (which also serves as the anus) and a gastrovascular cavity.

So you (Typically and Predictably) point out a SIMPLER yet STILL A COMPLETE, IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX CREATURE to make your case!!!.. LOL..

You were misled about that. Sponges, for example, lack many of the structures of cnidarians, but still manage to live and thrive. By now, you should be starting to realize that your new beliefs are not consistent with the evidence we have for living things.

The Cnidarian couldnt have evolved slowly EITHER!! Way too many complex parts that must all be working in tandem

See above. Even in the Cnidaria, the Trachylina lack a polyp. So you're obviously wrong.

You are the guy who tells people that because the ocean never spits out Gold Rolex Watches ( although you think it's theoretically possible) evolution is impossible. And yet, as you've now learned, it's observed directly on a daily basis.

 

[The Barbarian]

When should I be expecting that to happen? Anytime soon? So far all I've seen is standard hand waving, bumper stickers, talking points, and logical fallacies galore.

You were shown a great deal of evidence. If you had actually read the book you cited, you would have seen much, much more. There's really no point in you denying the fact.

Find a way to live with it.

 

[The Barbarian]

I never CLAIMED to say 3 billion years..

Second time, you did, which is why I told you that wasn't what you had said. Three billion years was an addition. Creationists often do things like that.

If they are willing to call God the Father and his Son liars about His creation, nothing is off the table.

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

"In fact, Dr. Schmidt-Rhaesa repeatedly confirms the fact of evolution,"



This is how I know you never read his book. For example, he demonstrates that striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:
The Evolution of Organ Systems

Pages 76-77

You were telling me how his opinions were going to be difficult for anyone who accepts the fact of evolution, and yet here he is, documenting the fact of evolution in the very book you cited. You never read it; you just heard about it from someone who wasn't honest with you.

I am glad I was able to clear up your obvious misunderstanding on this matter.

"For example, he demonstrates that striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:"

You made my point.. THIS IS NOT scientific evidence to support the S L O W Microbe to Microbiologist Myth of Evolutionism

You are confusing IMAGINATION with Scientific Evidence..... Google "Scientific Method" in order to get up to date.. You are failing in this classroom..

AGAIN... I read the book.. I saw ZERO scientific evidence to support the insane diabolical fairytale of Evolutionism AND I saw ZERO plausible Chronological Evolutionary Orders For Microbe to Man Evolution..... It sounds like you are starting to hate your Oval-Earther philosophy and I don't blame you, it is neither logical nor tenable....

NOW

If you find ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE in his book please present what SPECIFICALLY is the evidence...

BTW. "striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:" Is evidence for single common ancestor for all flora and fauna??? INSANE, It is just the OPPOSITE!!!

You are not interested in a serious conversation and are just trying to embarrass yourself in front of everyone.. And you are doing a good job of it....

 

[The Barbarian]

"For example, he demonstrates that striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:"

You made my point..

It made my point. Remember when I told you the first two organs in metazoans were integument and nerves? This shows that muscle were not a common organ in early metazoans, but evolved twice, in different ways later.

THIS IS NOT scientific evidence to support the S L O W Microbe to Microbiologist Myth of Evolutionism

But it is evidence to show common descent. Your belief in "evolutionism", is wrong. Remember? I showed you that humans evolved from other primates. Even some of your fellow YE creationists admit the evidence for evolution of humans from primiates is "very good evidence." Would you like me to show you that again? You're still messing up because you're not writing this down, and then you forget it a day or so later.

AGAIN... I read the book..

You said you did. But you were blindsided when I actually showed you what was in it. Did you really think I didn't know what he had written about it?

I saw ZERO scientific evidence to support the insane diabolical fairytale of Evolutionism

You're getting overexcited again. As you have seen, Schmidt-Rhaesa lays out the evidence for common descent, and does a masterful job of it. If you had read the book, you'd have known this. Never let someone else tell you about a book; read it and learn about it, if you don't want to be embarrassed later.

AND I saw ZERO plausible Chronological Evolutionary Orders For Microbe to Man Evolution.....

Think back and remember. Write it down, if you haven't already. "Humans evolved from other primates, not from microbes." Say it a couple times, so you don't forget. It sounds like you are starting to hate your "creationist/evolutionism/Oval-Earther" philosophy and I don't blame you, it is neither logical nor tenable.

BTW. "striated muscle in cnidarians is different genetically and anatomically:" Is evidence for single common ancestor for all flora and fauna???

It's evidence for what I showed you first; integument and nervous systems were the first organs to evolve in metazoans. Muscles evolved independently in cnidarians and other metazoans. Write that down, so I won't have to remind you again.

It appears, given your angry outbursts, your false accusations and your frequent lapses of memory, that you are not interested in a serious conversation. Your anger, however, is encouraging; it means you've started to realize that all was not the way you were indoctrinated to believe. Right now, you're resisting it, but it's already got you thinking, or you wouldn't be calling names and acting this way.

It's O.K. I'm a very patient guy. You're on the road to Damascus, my friend.

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

Second time, you did, which is why I told you that wasn't what you had said. Three billion years was an addition. Creationists often do things like that.

If they are willing to call God the Father and his Son liars about His creation, nothing is off the table.

"Three billion years was an addition." It was an irrelevant part of what was being discussed, But you already know that.. Small wonder why so many people refer to the RCC as the Great W&^%E of Babylon
The despicable and dishonest behavior displayed here is exhibit A..

99.9% of Evolutionists are also abortionists.. That is what happens when people refuse to believe that God made humans in his own image.

"The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to
make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution."

"Sir Arthur Keith, British anthropologist and atheistic evolutionist"

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

"Think back and remember. Write it down, if you haven't already. "Humans evolved from other primates, not from microbes."

What did "primates" evolve from? LOL


"It made my point. Remember when I told you the first two organs in metazoans were integument and nerves?"

OK so I guess people like you "telling me" things is all I need to know.. Why do you wannabe apes hate the scientific method so much?

 

[jJIM THINNSEN]

ATHEISTS LAUGH AT OVAL EARTHERS WHO DO THEIR "WET WORK" FOR THEM...

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"
Richard Dawkins

"The day will come when the evidence constantly accumulating around the evolutionary theory becomes so massively persuasive that even the last and most fundamental Christian warriors will have to lay down their arms and surrender unconditionally. I believe that day will be the end of Christianity.” “The Meaning of Evolution”, American Atheist


"Christianity has fought, still fights, and will fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus’ earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the son of god. Take away the meaning of his death. If Jesus was not the redeemer that died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing." G. Richard Bozarth,


"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, as secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint—and Mr. Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today” (Ruse).


"The most devastating thing though that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a Savior. And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity.'

Frank Zindler

 

[The Barbarian]

Think back and remember. Write it down, if you haven't already. "Humans evolved from other primates, not from microbes."

What did "primates" evolve from?

Prosimians.

(regarding the later evolution of muscles in metazoans)
It made my point. Remember when I told you the first two organs in metazoans were integument and nerves?

OK so I guess people like you "telling me" things is all I need to know.

Knowing what one is talking about, helps, yes. As you learned, the evidence is what counts. Real scientists did real research, and found real data supporting the things you've learned here.

Why do you wannabe apes hate the scientific method so much?

The "scientific method" is the way they found those data. I thought you knew. I know this is kind of a struggle for you, but keep on it; it's going to be worth it.